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Brier Creek in Raleigh


Tayfromcarolina

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Remember - it IS out past the airport. It would be foolish to expect much better all the way out there.

Why would it be foolish to expect much better? Why can't there be more urban, pedestrian-friendly development along the the city's edges? I'm not necessarily targeting your comments--just speaking in general. Unfortunately Raleigh's (and many other cities) outer areas are growing in a sprawling way, with heavy emphasis on the vehicle and very little to pedestrians.

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but don't forget the city council. when's the next election?

This fall. I have been following them, and have some very strong opinions on the subject.

I would argue that given it was a totally clean slate (hundreds of acres of greenfield) should dictate that we do a better job of planning. If you want to blame the council, you should probably blame the last one or even the one before that considering much of what is built now near 540/70 was approved several years ago.

I do have some hope that our Planning Director, Mitch Silver, can provide the city with a better road map to development patterns in this city. I almost physically get sick when I think about how lousy Brier Creek is laid out, but from what I've seen of Mr Silver, I think there is at least promise for the future, especially with the new comp plan coming up. Ultimately though, it will up to the council's descretion what they approve or don't approve. Ultimately the citizens have to demand better development or we won't get it.

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Brier Creek was an incredible missed opportunity. We shouldn't say, "well, outside of this small area in the middle of town we should expect development to be of extremely poor quality, so what's the big deal," and have that be alright. ChiefJoJo is correct. We ought to be demanding better quality growth. And there are a lot of people here who do that at public meetings, etc. The development community can do better. The politicians can make them do so. The citizens need to hold their leaders accountable.

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I think Brier Creek was approved to capitalize on 540 and to expand Raleigh's city limits to RTP quicker than Durham. Which is a shame, because it was a wasted opportunity. It looks like the new propsal is a chance to get part of it right, and I hope it isn't too little too late. I don't think developers thought it would be as successful as it has been. I heard somewhere they were a year ahead of the ten year build-out schedule after year 2 or 3.

The whole area is a by-product of the "put anything anywhere, as long as it creates jobs/increases the tax base" mentality. Infrastructre, connectivity, etc. be damned. They did win some concessions --a fire station and land for the school/park. But those are part of the costs of doing business, and it lets Toll Brothers and other devleopers charge even more for their developments. At the time, few people lived there, and there was little to no organization among smart-growth folks, so it was approved. It could be retrofitted, but that would take a lot more work than if they did it right the first time.

The US 70 "divide" was the result of different land owners wanting to maximize profits. Widening Brier Creek Parkway was enough to get approval. But the shopping centers' design causes all the traffic problems. All the inbound Wal-Mart traffic tries to squeeze into the one turn lane by Red Robin. The second entrance past Panera goes almost unused. Some outbound traffic uses the second intersection, but a lot of people go out through the first and u-turn at the second. I think they could fix it by making the first entrance two lanes, inbound only, with the left lane feeding the Moes/Panera shops and the right lane feeding Red Robin/Salon Blu/Sprint/etc. and both feeding wal-mart. Outbound traffic would have to use the second intersection, which should also have a traffic signal or roundabout.

The south side of 70 has the same problem -- everyone wants to turn in at the first chance they get. The "town" area in the middle is nice, but a lot of people don't know how to manage a four way stop. There are sidewalks, but walking from the big box side of things to Brier Creek Parkway is easier said than done. "Froggering" across Brier Creek Parkway is not for the faint of heart.

Brierdale, the "upscale" part, seems to be too small. It seems the developer wanted to limit the number of stores to increase rent. They could have gone vertical here, like Meadowmont and Southern Village, but it is still "shopping over here, living over there."

If they bulit residences above the "smaller/botique" areas near Wal-Mart, Brier Creek, and Brierdale, it would have been a lot more acceptable example of how to do things the right way. If the restaurants were clustered better, walkable to the movie theater (like Southpoint's "street"), with parking decks out of the way behind restaurants, ice cream/coffee shops, B&N, etc. to reduce surface parking, it could have been an entertainment district node right in the middle of the Triangle. Throw in Frankie's Fun Park (instead of isolating it in its current location) and you have somethign to rival the "fun" parts of Concord Mills. This area could have complimented the natural rolling topography of the area, instead of the flattened plug-and-chug development there now. Bass Pro Shops even wanted in, but the developers said no. A raised Target/shopping plaza above the restaurants could have "fed" off this traffic, like an upside-down North Hills or the shopping center Steve Carrel works at in the 40 Year Old Virgin.

Big Box stores could have been limited to the Wal-mart side of Glenwood or closer to the Lumley/Brier Creek intersection. Twin Brierdales on both sides of Lumley could have enhanced the entrance to the high end part of Brier Creek by giving the area a pedestrian-oriented feel.

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I am not very familiar with the whole layout of Brier Creek, but I know that it was billed as this mixed use wonder development when it seems it is just well dressed typical sprawl. The aggravating part to me is how mis-represented and mis-marketed these types of developments are allowed to be. The one down on Tryon Road is shaping up to be the same thing....

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Personally, I don't get all of the negativity expressed towards developments like Brier Creek. In some sense I do understand why the city council would approve such a develpment in it's current state, eventhough it does represent sprawl from hell. I'm sure that there are a number of councilors that were not happy with the design, but decided to go along with it because they know that it is in the best interest of Raleigh to have it, versus to not have it.

I have driven through that development many times, and i'm amazed at how much commercial development is being spawed in that area. I have seen a number of companies locate or announce plans to locate operations or offices in the commercial space. Just think where these companies might have located if the Brier Creek development, with all of its amenities, were not there---probably to Morrisville or maybe even worse, Durham. All in all I think that the city council is doing the best thing for Raleigh, and I applaud them for that. This development will not meet everyone's standards or taste, but in the long run, it will significanlty add to Raleigh's economy.

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Personally, I don't get all of the negativity expressed towards developments like Brier Creek.

Maybe you should re-read ncwebguy's last post. It's not that we're criticizing the amount of growth in that area, but how little planning was done. This was area was bound to grow eventually, nobody's arguing against that, it's just a case of a HUGE missed opportunity. This could've been a model for mixed use, efficient land use, with efficient traffic patterns and pedestrian connectivity.

...but in the long run, it will significanlty add to Raleigh's economy.

I agree that it will significantly add to Raleigh's economy, but I don't believe this design will survive in the long run. In other words, how much more would a better designed Brier Creek (again, see ncwebguy's post) have added not only to our economy but to that area's residents quality of life. I eventually see this area being thoroughly redeveloped/redesigned in order to stay competitive.

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With Brier Creek being tabbed as one of the city's outlying "focus areas" (along with TTC and Crabtree), the area was developed in a very unfocused manner.

Would Raleigh have "lost" it to Morrisville or Durham? Not likely. Morrisville has had a small town mentality for decades, and are only recently realizing the growth going on around them. Durham barely touches 540, and the part of the Bull city closest to the Brier Creek area is hilly, making a development that size more difficult to pull off.

While not in the immediate area, a lot of businesses on Glenwood closer to Crabtree are suffering due to Brier Creek. I doubt Wal Mart and Target will renew the leases at their older locations.

Imagine if the office buildings were on top of the buildings in the Caribou Coffee area? Parking spaces would be utilized 9-5 and on weekends, instead of the current feast of famine. Office workers could *walk* to lunch vs. getting in the car to drive by Dick's Sporting Goods.

Are they doing a better development in the new part of Brier Creek because they want to? No. They are doing it because they have to. It will add to the economy, but it could have added even more with a few design tweaks that didn't gobble up acres of land near RTP and the center of the Triangle.

It will be interesting to see how 5401 in NE Raleigh turns out, as there are a lot of similarities -- greenfields developed at a 540 interchange. If we don't expect/demand better, we aren't going to get it, and wind up with developments like White Oak at the 40/70 intersection in Garner.

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I think it's foolish to expect much better because we all know how this city has grown in the past - and considering how much of an improvement Brier Creek is compared to other developments (again, I think TTC is instructive), we ought not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Brier Creek isn't ideal, but if every development in the future is like that then it'll be an improvement over what we've had in the past.

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Why would it be foolish to expect much better? Why can't there be more urban, pedestrian-friendly development along the the city's edges? I'm not necessarily targeting your comments--just speaking in general. Unfortunately Raleigh's (and many other cities) outer areas are growing in a sprawling way, with heavy emphasis on the vehicle and very little to pedestrians.

People keep talking about Briar Creek being WAY out past the airport...Let me correct that sentence.

Briar Creek is centrally located near the airport and the largest employment center in the Triangle. It is also equidistant between Raleigh's and Durham's respective downtowns and employment centers.

I personally like how Davis Park is shaping up in Durham but they were working with a lot less land. I also doubt if there are any Big Boxes there...probably more Grocery-anchored shopping except in a more village setting. The most exciting part of the development is adjacent to the proposed Transit Center.

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I personally like how Davis Park is shaping up in Durham but they were working with a lot less land. I also doubt if there are any Big Boxes there...probably more Grocery-anchored shopping except in a more village setting. The most exciting part of the development is adjacent to the proposed Transit Center.

Hmm. I have a different opinion of Davis Park so far, but that's another topic for another thread...

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Imagine if the office buildings were on top of the buildings in the Caribou Coffee area? Parking spaces would be utilized 9-5 and on weekends, instead of the current feast of famine. Office workers could *walk* to lunch vs. getting in the car to drive by Dick's Sporting Goods.

I live near BC. From Day 1, I was surprised that some apartments weren't added above them from the start. Although I agree this is a missed opportunity, I feel it is (or hope it is) for the short term only. As long as a single company is in charge of the entire BC Shopping area, there will be future opportunity for redevelopment. I am not convinced any developers in the Triangle have figured out how to do density right. And I know that the politicians do not.

Instead of seeing BC develop into a urban village that it could, should, and hopefully will be, I would first like to see the area on US70 from the Millbrook Rd to Deblyn Ave. This would include Pleasant Valley Shopping Center (the area with the old Best Buy) and Town Ridge Square (Walmart). While not as central to RTP, or as close to durham, these shopping areas are each reaching their end of life. Improvements to the roads would be neccesary, but could be a model for redeveloping shopping centers to be used for years. North Hills East is probably the only thing developers would use as a template, and I suppose thats not a bad start.

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The only development I've ever seen in the Southeast that started with an essentially blank slate in a suburban area, and is managing to make something genuinely urban and genuinely walkable out of it, is Virginia Beach Town Center.

They started out with a mostly undeveloped parcel across a huge thoroughfare from a (declining) shopping mall, and are creating what promises to be a genuine downtown. Why does this development succeed at being urban, in spite of its suburban location, so much better than Brier Creek, Meadowmont, North Hills, Crabtree Valley, etc.? It's not just the mix of uses, or the form factor of the buildings. All the developments here have that, too. No, it's the whole philosophy of the development.

First, it's built on a genuine street grid. No creative, cutesy, winding streets and roundabouts to make the site plan and renderings look pretty. Next, every building in this development tries to strike a balance of inward and outward focus. They even have street retail facing Virginia Beach Boulevard - an enormous highway with lots of traffic (think Capital Boulevard or 15/501). This external focus will allow future, neighboring developments to build on the momentum. Nearby strip malls can redevelop, extend the Town Center's street grid onto their property, and become a part of the district, rather than just being next door. The idea is, of course, to create a cohesive downtown for Virginia Beach.

Another part of the genius of this plan is that it's next to the rail line that will probably be converted to LRT, tying Norfolk with the VB oceanfront. The transit isn't there yet, and so far it's only in the study stages, but nevertheless they're building the development so that it will take full advantage of the transit once it's in place. This parallel doesn't really apply to Brier Creek (their "transit alignment" is a joke) but it certainly applies to Davis Park and Triangle Metro Center, which has a legitimate chance of being a future stop on the trunk line of our future transit system.

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I'm sure that there are a number of councilors that were not happy with the design, but decided to go along with it because they know that it is in the best interest of Raleigh to have it, versus to not have it.

tjoad responded to this, but I have to chime in...

It's not as if anyone is saying we don't want development at Brier Creek. It's not an all or nothing proposition. I'm pissed that at the time it was approved, someone on the planning commission/council didn't say, "we want you to go back to the drawing board and bring us something smarter," or something to that effect. It has been done before. If you go out to dinner, and the server brings out a plate of crap, do you eat the lousy food and say it'll do, or send it back and ask for something better?

This area is EXTREMELY attractive to developers, as there are thousands of people moving here each year... I think we have plenty of leverage and I believe the resonsibility to say to our developers, "we expect a better product." Otherwise, we'll be left with a big pile of crap in about 20 years.

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The only development I've ever seen in the Southeast that started with an essentially blank slate in a suburban area, and is managing to make something genuinely urban and genuinely walkable out of it, is Virginia Beach Town Center.

They started out with a mostly undeveloped parcel across a huge thoroughfare from a (declining) shopping mall, and are creating what promises to be a genuine downtown. Why does this development succeed at being urban, in spite of its suburban location, so much better than Brier Creek, Meadowmont, North Hills, Crabtree Valley, etc.? It's not just the mix of uses, or the form factor of the buildings. All the developments here have that, too. No, it's the whole philosophy of the development.

First, it's built on a genuine street grid. No creative, cutesy, winding streets and roundabouts to make the site plan and renderings look pretty. Next, every building in this development tries to strike a balance of inward and outward focus. They even have street retail facing Virginia Beach Boulevard - an enormous highway with lots of traffic (think Capital Boulevard or 15/501). This external focus will allow future, neighboring developments to build on the momentum. Nearby strip malls can redevelop, extend the Town Center's street grid onto their property, and become a part of the district, rather than just being next door. The idea is, of course, to create a cohesive downtown for Virginia Beach.

Another part of the genius of this plan is that it's next to the rail line that will probably be converted to LRT, tying Norfolk with the VB oceanfront. The transit isn't there yet, and so far it's only in the study stages, but nevertheless they're building the development so that it will take full advantage of the transit once it's in place. This parallel doesn't really apply to Brier Creek (their "transit alignment" is a joke) but it certainly applies to Davis Park and Triangle Metro Center, which has a legitimate chance of being a future stop on the trunk line of our future transit system.

Wow...why can't Raleigh get something like this?? To the "whats up with all the negativity about BC" crowd, its not about how pretty a development is, its not just about being a little better than the previous junk....your willingness to accept, unsustainable, poorly laid out, poorly utilized, chunks of development is part of the problem....advocating for, living in, and being able to dicuss, analyze and understand what makes a 'good' development is the beginning of getting good development......if N&O reporters are reading this site, and it seems some are, then our views and comments are influencial. Turning our collective eyes back towards our downtowns was a huge first step....the next is getting to how to handle all the mess being created by this on the periphery....

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The master developer *created* the Brier Creek "street grid". It is ok through the shopping area, but falls apart as it crosses BC Parkway and Lumley.

The lack of connectivity between BC's aparatments and homes/townhouses was planned. BC Parkway is a "rasied spine" sepearting shopping from residential. Only Caribou Coffee addresses the parkway, which makes walking into the complex from the outside a chore, not a pleasure.

As every retail project in the Triangle (other than North Hills) has proved, wishing for "redevloped into something better at a later date" never comes true. Waverly Place may be the exception to this rule, but it has to be approved by Cary first -- easier said than done. If "market forces" really drove density, Cameron Village would have gone vertical years ago. But the only thing going up there is rent per square foot, not the number of stories.

Another example of "could be redeveloped, but hasn't been" was mentioned by Transplant -- Pleasant Valley. To me, Brier Creek is a step *back* from the progress made there. Unfortunately, the color selection was dated the day the paint dried, and was never updated. But it was a strong step up from the "boxes behind parking with some outparcels" in mini city. Instead of building out, Pleasant Valley built *up* -- putting the gym and Hard Wok Buffet above what is currently Bed Bath and Beyond, Bruggers, etc. The "Shops of Townridge" is two story -- office above retail. Pleasant Valley even has a lot of (unused) parking in the "hidden" deck below the old movie theater to let everyone park. The lack of signage directing people to the deck, and the large amount of parking along Pleasant Valley Road, led to no one but the homeless using it. With the deck parking unused, the surface parking filled up quickly and a lot of people avoided the area. The land along Pleasant Valley feels like a "to be developed later" outparcel that was never developed. The whole "back side" of PV is a wasted opportunity.

With no incentive to build up, the incentive to build out wins every time. Planning to start over a mile down the road, leaving empty big box shells that might get filled is a plan, but not sustainable one. Why do we care? Because, as the past has shown, hope isn't enough. There are a lot of quotes on good and evil, and one could be modified to describe my feelings -- all that is necessary for the triumph of developers is for good men and women to do nothing.

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  • 3 weeks later...

More for Briar Creek, some homes in Wake and some in Durham. Sounds like the Toll Brothers are cleaning up out there.

I heard about this, and other projects, in this area which bridge the county line. It will be interesting to see how schools dictate differences in houses and prices on the different sides of the line.

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I noticed the other day that someone was clearing land near this point on Globe Road. The Durham/Wake county border is roughly around World Trade Blvd.

From the article, "about 100 acres, with about 260 homes, will be in Raleigh's jurisdiction. The remaining 32 acres, and about 200 homes, will be in Durham's control." Quick back-of-the-napkin math says the land in Wake county will have 2.6 homes/acre while the Durham County land will have 6.25 homes/acre. The Durham part will be more than twice as dense, not accounting for roads, etc. So it looks like houses in Wake, condos/townhouses in Durham. The Wake property will have a much higher tax valuation -- detached homes on 1/3 acre lots will go for more than townhomes and condos on less than half that.

From Durham County's perspective, the "houses for Wake, townhouses for Duhram" resulting in plans to getting almost as many residents in less land and a smaller tax base could be an insult.

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In general, as the urbanized areas (defined as 1000 persons/sq mile) grow together through developments such as this, the MSAs will likely merge into one by the next census in 2010.

If they did re-merge our two local MSA's, then RDU would be about that same population as Charlotte! :thumbsup:

Sorry if this is off topic!

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From Durham County's perspective, the "houses for Wake, townhouses for Duhram" resulting in plans to getting almost as many residents in less land and a smaller tax base could be an insult.

I bet it was done because of the real or perceived differences in the Durham and Wake school systems. Single family almost surely means a family, likely with kids who will need schools. With the townhouse/condo arrangement, the child situation is not as certain... developer says "let's throw them over in Durham Co."

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