The Dillon: Kane's first downtown mixed use project

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

14 of 17....going up! Almost there...now try to imagine 14 of 27 or 37....sigh! :-)

[KJHburg]

Just curious isn't this area have limited height restrictions? And if that is the case why in the world would the city do that? Most Urban Mixed Use zoning in Charlotte allows for unlimited height. 

[RALNATIVE]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

Just curious isn't this area have limited height restrictions? And if that is the case why in the world would the city do that? Most Urban Mixed Use zoning in Charlotte allows for unlimited height. 

It's done to appease the NIMBY and the old money crowds. They are afraid of Raleigh becoming a real city.

[Trent Y]

5 hours ago, RALNATIVE said:

It's done to appease the NIMBY and the old money crowds. They are afraid of Raleigh becoming a real city.

Yep unfortunately that is the case. Ive never seen a city with so much of its population that desires it to stay just a sleepy southern town instead of allowing it to grow even further into the great city its already become. Unless develoment is suggested for an empty parking lot on Fayetteville st. people complain like crazy.

[RiverwoodCLT]

How is Raleigh going to compete with other cities that can build high rise office buildings in their down towns? Duke, BOA, and Wells Fargo in Charlotte could not located in downtown Raleigh.   Raleigh must be able to build over 40 stories to attract a large company.

If the city does not know this, they should,  that bigger the building the more tax money they receive.  What is wrong with city  council?.

[ctl]

This is not a supply-side problem, it's a demand-side problem. Nobody is going to build a 40-floor tower on spec. If a company that truly requires 40 floors wants to move to move its HQ here, I suspect the City would find a way to accommodate it. But it hasn't happened.

[RALNATIVE]

9 hours ago, RiverwoodCLT said:

If the city does not know this, they should,  that bigger the building the more tax money they receive.  What is wrong with city  council?.

I agree and i've voiced this concern many times. Every time there is a strong progressive minded person that runs for city council, they always loose to the Raleigh status quo. There is clearly collusion between the city and some of the local developers. 

First of all, most of those local developers, with the exception of those like Kane, aren't capable of building highrises over 20 stories. They can claim that they can all they want, but they just don't have the deep pockets, track record, and civic support that it takes to deliver a tall sky scraper.

Secondly, it's hard for outside developers who actually have the capabilities to build tall buildings to penetrate this market because the city is so in bed with the local developers and the big money in Raleigh. They do everything they can to stymie the growth and urbanization of downtown.

The good news is that as more younger people move downtown and other parts of Raleigh and become active in local politics and fill key city positions, things are starting to change for the better. I do think these height limitations will eventually be reversed. All it will take is a large, influential company showing interest in downtown and a desire to build a 40+ story tower, and those limitations will be quickly obsoleted.

[Jones_]

20 hours ago, RiverwoodCLT said:

How is Raleigh going to compete with other cities that can build high rise office buildings in their down towns? Duke, BOA, and Wells Fargo in Charlotte could not located in downtown Raleigh.   Raleigh must be able to build over 40 stories to attract a large company.

If the city does not know this, they should,  that bigger the building the more tax money they receive.  What is wrong with city  council?.

Raleigh CAN build over 40 stories, it just has to get a variance, which requires a more thorough and rigorous review. 

[Hunted]

15 hours ago, Jones_ said:

Raleigh CAN build over 40 stories, it just has to get a variance, which requires a more thorough and rigorous review. 

What's the reasoning behind this rule? The only other city I'm aware of that has such a rule is Colorado Springs, CO. Their reason is so nothing is so big as to obscure the view of Pike's Peak from downtown. At least they can justify theirs...

[Green_man]

On 7/29/2017 at 6:38 PM, ctl said:

This is not a supply-side problem, it's a demand-side problem. Nobody is going to build a 40-floor tower on spec. If a company that truly requires 40 floors wants to move to move its HQ here, I suspect the City would find a way to accommodate it. But it hasn't happened.

THIS!!!

So much animosity against the city for these zonings - which is all it is.  If a developer - local or not - wants to build bigger, then just. submit. the. paperwork.

Yall getting worked up over technicalities.

[RiverwoodCLT]

Good luck.   I see said the blind man.

[Rufus]

1 hour ago, Green_man said:

THIS!!!

So much animosity against the city for these zonings - which is all it is.  If a developer - local or not - wants to build bigger, then just. submit. the. paperwork.

Yall getting worked up over technicalities.

I don't disagree with this line of thinking, however I think we all know it is much more than just this. I remember when I was growing up in Raleigh, and even when I lived there for a few years after school, and the common thinking was, "We don't want to be NYC, or Atlanta, or even Charlotte." I am not one who transplanted from the Northeast to the South, but I know people who did, and it always strikes me as interesting at how much of that culture and urban thinking moved down here to escape that environment. There are people who don't want to live in a city, and the irony astounds me at how they choose to live in a smaller city thinking that their actions would not influence or be similar to others.

I moved from NC to NYC four years ago, and, yes, there are parts of the urban environment that I can't stand, but the accessibility and casual amenities are so far beyond what any city in NC has. I don't know why people would not want to have even a fraction of what is up here in NYC.

 

So, yes, it is that a company or developer just needs to propose something taller. However, there is also a mindset, be it as confounding as it may sound, that influences the decisions being made.

[RALNATIVE]

1 hour ago, Rufus said:

So, yes, it is that a company or developer just needs to propose something taller. However, there is also a mindset, be it as confounding as it may sound, that influences the decisions being made.

The biggest problem that I have with this is that most of those influential voices are from people in their later years of life. They seem to have no interest or concern for the interests of the younger generations and the future of Raleigh after they're long gone. It's all about "what we want now."

 

Edited July 31, 2017 by RALNATIVE

[Jones_]

15 hours ago, Hunted said:

What's the reasoning behind this rule? The only other city I'm aware of that has such a rule is Colorado Springs, CO. Their reason is so nothing is so big as to obscure the view of Pike's Peak from downtown. At least they can justify theirs...

I don't know that the reasoning for something is codified, so all I can do is speculate....maybe this helps the City not just get turned freely over to the whims of every developer that's looking to capitalize on the growth here. I think its pretty obvious that money making is beginning to take a serious precedence over make the city 'better'. The NC State area is exhibit A on that front. Sure there are plenty of good projects around town....but there is plenty enough to grind my gears too. Given that no one has yet to submit a request for a variance to exceed the height limits under the current code, we have no idea how rigorous it would be, or what would be asked. I imagine public input would play a larger role and some folks would deride NIMBYism, but for laughs, let me toss out a hypothetical...the Post Office on New Bern. It's adjacent to the Oakwood historic district but is a fairly modern (1970's), commercial/institutional use building with a parking lot, so not remotely historic itself. How would the neighbors feel if a developer offered to build a 50 story building there to "expand downtown to the east"? How would you feel? Would it make sense even if the developer promised street level retail and a large residential component? 

[Green_man]

1 hour ago, Jones_ said:

Given that no one has yet to submit a request for a variance to exceed the height limits under the current code, we have no idea how rigorous it would be, or what would be asked. 

Empire submitting for rezoning to 12 stories at 404 S. Dawson.  Boutique hotel submitted to rezone 615 W. Peace St to 5 stories.  Group that was working on N&O block were planning to rezone up to 40 stories until that project fell through.

I'm curious if there are actually still people saying they want the city not to grow, or if that has just become a repeated misnomer "people are saying...".  Whenever someone mentions that its very vague and I feel just a leftover sentiment that is repeated without effort to verify.

[CHGuy]

Up until the current UDO, any project of any size in downtown Raleigh had to have approval from the city council.  The new UDO has changed that so that projects of certain heights do not need city council approval, only planning staff approval.  Over the stated heights, you then need city council approval.  The standards have actually been loosened, yet everyone is upset about height limitations.  The limitations used to be more restrictive.  The council still wants to have a say in large projects, just not every project like it was before the current UDO was adopted.

[Jones_]

5 hours ago, Green_man said:

Empire submitting for rezoning to 12 stories at 404 S. Dawson.  Boutique hotel submitted to rezone 615 W. Peace St to 5 stories.  Group that was working on N&O block were planning to rezone up to 40 stories until that project fell through.

I'm curious if there are actually still people saying they want the city not to grow, or if that has just become a repeated misnomer "people are saying...".  Whenever someone mentions that its very vague and I feel just a leftover sentiment that is repeated without effort to verify.

Ah, yes, thanks for the correction. I suppose I had tunnel vision regarding 40+, which is primarily what people scream about. 

But I very much agree that people seem to think zoning and the city are somehow blocking development here, when really what it is...is demand...plain and simple. No uncorking of the zoning will lead to massive, beautiful, monuments to our ability to build as gigantic as possible until someone shows up willing to pay the rent. 

 

[KJHburg]

I think the market is dictating somewhat no super tall buildings (more than 30 floors) in Raleigh. Charlotte for example has huge financial anchors that demands lots of space which causes our buildings to go straight up. Raleigh's economy is more centered on tech which some like urban locations but for the most part they like suburban campuses like those in Silicon Valley. Red Hat is a major exception but remember that building was built for Progress when they merged with Duke became available. I do wish First Citizens as someone mentioned would do a high rise in downtown Raleigh and they could be your future high rise tenant and I am sure your law firm tenants would love a new high rise that towers over everything else. But I do think this is more market driven good or bad. Bank of America is leasing 545K sq ft in a new 33 story tower under construction in Charlotte for example. But Raleigh does have the 22 story FNB building starting soon. 

[KJHburg]

The Dillon is looking great. Photo courtesy of their OxBlue webcam 

[Jones_]

The brickwork going in actually has a nice, sort of aged look to it...I was impressed. I walk past it daily. Nice street presence. 

[Trent Y]

15 hours ago, KJHburg said:

The Dillon is looking great. Photo courtesy of their OxBlue webcam 

Awesome angle for that picture. Just as i suspected this building is going to look quite a bit taller then it's actual height says. Already has quite a presence to it and it looks like there is still about 4 floors to go!

[InitialD]

 

[KJHburg]

Today from my visit to the Capital City. 

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

Today they are working on 15 of 17... I guess they had to let things dry out first? 

[InitialD]

You can start to see it from a lot of area downtown. Seen from Snoopy's on Hillsborough, with the fence in the foreground for One Glenwood.