Orlando Central | 325-feet Residential [Approved]

[Tim3167]

Nice looking tower though 

[popsiclebrandon]

I thought he killed himself. Who was the guy who rigged up that shotgun to kill himself in the backyard in Winter Park?

[spenser1058]

15 minutes ago, popsiclebrandon said:

I thought he killed himself. Who was the guy who rigged up that shotgun to kill himself in the backyard in Winter Park?

That was the Tradition Towers dude, Stephen Walsh at Broad Street Partners. Cameron aided and abetted Bulldozer Buddy on The Plaza after redoing some older buildings downtown (some, like the old Masonic Lodge, left a lot to be desired as refurbs) and leaving a mess in downtown Jax.

Edited August 6, 2022 by spenser1058

[spenser1058]

Do you suppose Cameron’s parking garage at Orlando Central will be as screwy as the one at The Plaza? And to think he’s now a parking manager..

Btw, I think the garage* behind the old Dickson-Ives building on W. Central may still have his “K” logo in the middle of it - I’ll have to check.

*It’s on the site of the old downtown Morrison’s Cafeteria. It was really funky with two serving lines and the decor was themed on astrology.
 

Edited August 7, 2022 by spenser1058

[orange87]

So what are the odds this actually gets built?

[spenser1058]

11 minutes ago, orange87 said:

So what are the odds this actually gets built?

@IAmFloridaBorn has declared it “not happening “, and that’s good enough for me. The fact Cameron has ended up back in this only solidifies that thought. I guess we’ll see.

[jrs2]

On 8/5/2022 at 7:50 PM, spenser1058 said:

Wow. Only in Orlando. Thanks for that - my biggest chuckle all week… @jrs2will like this, Cameron showing some old-fashioned Chicago chutzpah.

I’m late to the party on this one. Hmmm… wow…

for him to get involved in an apartment building now, he must have a bead on the changing economic climate, ala what we saw in the early 2000’s when apartments were being converted to condo… What is also interesting is that a year ago, maybe two, a commercial realtor I know was lauding CSP2, in that he was looking to sell his condo in Sanctuary so that he could move there once built.  I was like, um, that’s an apartment…I don’t get it…

So, being that King Buddy is still mayor,  the hall is rented, the orchestra is set…

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

@IAmFloridaBorn has declared it “not happening “, and that’s good enough for me. The fact Cameron has ended up back in this only solidifies that thought. I guess we’ll see.

I’m thinking the opposite…but I will put my feelers out there

[jrs2]

4 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Do you suppose Cameron’s parking garage at Orlando Central will be as screwy as the one at The Plaza? And to think he’s now a parking manager..

Btw, I think the garage* behind the old Dickson-Ives building on W. Central may still have his “K” logo in the middle of it - I’ll have to check.

*It’s on the site of the old downtown Morrison’s Cafeteria. It was really funky with two serving lines and the decor was themed on astrology.
 

Garage is big business in Chicago.  The Plaza was dysfunctional b/c it lacked an express ramp up the floors- ground to 3 (at the least), and maybe up to 4, 5, 6, and 7 for the Chosen Ones living at Solaire.  Originally 2A, 2B, 2C had cinema entrances; but the original cinema went BK and never opened.  The replacement, Cobb, looked at the plan and said hell no; they bricked those entrances on those floors ala Edgar Allen Poe.  As a result, that whole design made zero sense even more so.

[spenser1058]

1 minute ago, jrs2 said:

Garage is big business in Chicago.  The Plaza was dysfunctional b/c it lacked an express ramp up the floors- ground to 3 (at the least), and maybe up to 4, 5, 6, and 7 for the Chosen Ones living at Solaire.  Originally 2A, 2B, 2C had cinema entrances; but the original cinema went BK and never opened.  The replacement, Cobb, looked at the plan and said hell no; they bricked those entrances on those floors ala Edgar Allen Poe.  As a result, that whole design made zero sense even more so.

Post of the day, @jrs2

[jrs2]

1 minute ago, spenser1058 said:

Post of the day, @jrs2

Like all politicians before me, I am here to serve!

[spenser1058]

Here’s a Sentinel article of Cameron’s 2017 Chapter 7 bankruptcy:

Orlando developer Kuhn files bankruptcy with $22.8M debts
https://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-developer-kuhn-bankruptcy-20170111-story.html

It was not his first bankruptcy. In the filing, his address at the time was over near St. Pete. When did he resurface in Orlando?
 

[AmIReal]

I have a different take on Kuhn. I think he is a moderate success. In a brief few years (early/mid 2000s) he remodeled (or partially) 18 buildings in the downtown core (the Arcade on Magnolia, the Angebilt, the old ABC warehouse, most of Wall St, the Post Office, 2 S. Orange, the Metcalf, several others AND built the signature property in downtown- the Plaza, from the ground up.

Don't forget he took over a dead Church St and reopened Cheyenne's, opened Ceviche, Bliss, Hamburger Mary's, the Dessert Lady and others. For a brief shining moment Church St was alive again.

The man obviously gets things done.

Although he has always been out over his skis and trying to outrun the creditors, his biggest problem in '07-08 was the financial crash (which got pretty much everyone) and his attempting to stretch himself way too far (Jax and NO). Oh, and some partnering with some bad actors.

His failures are pretty small compared to his successes.

I don't know if he can do this project (construction money is getting tight), but he has definitely done something on this scale before.

[spenser1058]

38 minutes ago, AmIReal said:

I have a different take on Kuhn. I think he is a moderate success. In a brief few years (early/mid 2000s) he remodeled (or partially) 18 buildings in the downtown core (the Arcade on Magnolia, the Angebilt, the old ABC warehouse, most of Wall St, the Post Office, 2 S. Orange, the Metcalf, several others AND built the signature property in downtown- the Plaza, from the ground up.

Don't forget he took over a dead Church St and reopened Cheyenne's, opened Ceviche, Bliss, Hamburger Mary's, the Dessert Lady and others. For a brief shining moment Church St was alive again.

The man obviously gets things done.

Although he has always been out over his skis and trying to outrun the creditors, his biggest problem in '07-08 was the financial crash (which got pretty much everyone) and his attempting to stretch himself way too far (Jax and NO). Oh, and some partnering with some bad actors.

His failures are pretty small compared to his successes.

I don't know if he can do this project (construction money is getting tight), but he has definitely done something on this scale before.

Whoa, he may have done some minor remodeling and some of those were his but 2 S Orange, the Metcalf and the Angebilt had all been refurbed before he  arrived, just from those that come to mind right off the bat. I know of no one in the preservation community that thinks the Masonic Lodge was anything more than slapdash.  I think you’re overstating his impact significantly, particularly on Church Street.

I know for a fact from my time in Jax no one I encountered had much positive to say about him (in fact, when people found out I came from Orlando, they often wanted to know if I had anything to do with Cameron).

The Good Ol’ Buddy network seems to be alive and well repainting the barn. 

[AmIReal]

21 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Whoa, he may have done some minor remodeling and some of those were his but 2 S Orange, the Metcalf and the Angebilt had all been refurbed before he  arrived, just from those that come to mind right off the bat. I know of no one in the preservation community that thinks the Masonic Lodge was anything more than slapdash.  I think you’re overstating his impact significantly, particularly on Church Street.

I know for a fact from my time in Jax no one I encountered had much positive to say about him (in fact, when people found out I came from Orlando, they often wanted to know if I had anything to do with Cameron).

The Good Ol’ Buddy network seems to be alive and well repainting the barn. 

I know he did at least 6 floors of Angebilt. I was in the building at the time. I know he was working on Metcalf, but not sure how much work. The Masonic Lodge was renovated- including adding floors, prior to his arrival, but he did additional (albeit bad work on it). It wasn't on my list anyway. I recognize people in the historic community don't like him (see the Plaza), but that is not the point I was making- which is he has had a positive impact on downtown Orlando and is more qualified than most to do so again.

Explain how any of what I said about Church St is wrong. Although HE didn't open those businesses, I am very aware he was very active in seeking and securing tenants. One of your favorite sources even mentioned it-  https://www.moderncities.com/article/2019-may-adaptive-reuse-orlandos-church-street-station

 

[AmIReal]

I had to go look it up, but OS said he and Alvarez, Sambol, Winthrop and Madson PA bought Metcalf for $3.8M in March of '03 and spent over $1.5M is reno before. https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/os-xpm-2003-02-27-0302270147-story.html

 

[jack]

@AmIRealis correct. You may not like to renovations but was the primary partner in all of them. He got over his skis by expanding to other market but the real knife to the throat was the recession. I also don't think office condos in high rises made sense and the recession killed that market. 

[jrs2]

16 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Whoa, he may have done some minor remodeling and some of those were his but 2 S Orange, the Metcalf and the Angebilt had all been refurbed before he  arrived, just from those that come to mind right off the bat. I know of no one in the preservation community that thinks the Masonic Lodge was anything more than slapdash.  I think you’re overstating his impact significantly, particularly on Church Street.

I know for a fact from my time in Jax no one I encountered had much positive to say about him (in fact, when people found out I came from Orlando, they often wanted to know if I had anything to do with Cameron).

The Good Ol’ Buddy network seems to be alive and well repainting the barn. 

that's actually pretty funny, Spenser; repainting the barn.  I'm gonna use that one...I'll give you proper credit.

As for CK, (not Calvin Klein), AmIReal did make a valid point.   Before the Jaymont Block was proposed, there were these twin condo towers proposed for North Orange that were horrible looking.  This was when Waverly turned condo and Harley did so as well.  The Plaza proposal was a catalyst project; one that ticked off a lot of people but one that got things going again.  Prior to it, the last "boom" involved CNL, Capital Plaza II, Grand Boh, Lincoln Tower, Orange Cty Cthse, Lincoln at Delaney, Cheney Place, the apts next to the tracks just up from there, and I believe the former Hue building at Central & Summerlin, The 7-Eleven at Magnolia, the Hilton Garden Inn on Magnolia- all between 1997 and 2000.  Waverly too.  I don't think anything was built downtown again between that time and 2006.

Now, I don't know if Dynetech would have proposed a HQ tower downtown regardless.  Same for Vue, Sanctuary, 101 Eola, and so forth, whether or not Kuhn would have been involved.  But you know housing is like the stock market in a way...it's hype; buy, sell, resell; trendy neighborhoods, etc.  But, the hype machine for the Premiere Trade Plaza with a cinema was a big deal back then.  And when Paramount with the Publix was proposed, that was an even bigger deal to create the "neighborhood anchor."  Now, he may have known about those other projects on those other developers' drawing boards and knew what was coming but wanted to be "the guy" downtown; I mean, if you've been to his website, it would make Walt proud, so I'm sure he knew...

CK also pitched the Jax condo tower project he had brewing, but that project never really materialized, or, it did and then failed.  And I believe that caused an implosion that kept the 325 property with 'bowling alley' to never materialize; that and the timing of the bust.  The delays were ridiculous;  China was buying up all the cement and it was driving up prices and causing delays.  I got my info straight from the construction companies that were the big players downtown at the time.  More $$$, more delays, and potentially stellar projects got left partially unfinished or they were killed altogether.

My "euro buddies" tried to make TT happen but Walsh & Co. would not take the multi-unit deal, and then more delays, then...bust...and worse (for him).  But he did give us the pretty condo property near the WP USPS off of New York...

I think Buddy saw the Jaymont Block as not moving downtown forward which is why the midnight demo happened.  I did not necessarily agree with it.  My idea was more along the lines of keeping the historic buildings fronting Orange Ave but then building taller towers half a block to a block off of Orange Ave... But no one listens to me...

As for 325, dunno about his reputation currently.  BTW, Premiere America Trade never did move into the 10 floor as planned... so...people saw stuff even back then... but that was back in 2008ish...it's been 14 years since then...

[prahaboheme]

I’m trying to understand who would actually want to live at this location for what would be higher end apartments.

Location woes already mentioned, and competition from apartments in more desirable sections of the core would make it a tough sell for most.

My unrealistic pipe dream was always for this lot to become part of a larger scheme for CSS that incorporated this with a revitalization of the Exchange.

This would actually be a great spot downtown for a hotel with some convention space, retail arcade, and that OMA gallery that was never actually going to happen in South Eola.

[JFW657]

11 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

This would actually be a great spot downtown for a hotel with some convention space, retail arcade, and that OMA gallery that was never actually going to happen in South Eola.

That would be a good use for that location if DTO could support another large hotel and convention space.

Not really sure it could.  

[RedStar25]

On 8/5/2022 at 8:18 AM, popsiclebrandon said:

I love the idea of a pool looking straight onto I-4.

Great sunsets though. 

[IAmFloridaBorn]

This would be Orlando's fifth tallest if it happens.

[jliv]

I’m trying to understand who would actually want to live at this location for what would be higher end apartments.
Location woes already mentioned, and competition from apartments in more desirable sections of the core would make it a tough sell for most.
My unrealistic pipe dream was always for this lot to become part of a larger scheme for CSS that incorporated this with a revitalization of the Exchange.
This would actually be a great spot downtown for a hotel with some convention space, retail arcade, and that OMA gallery that was never actually going to happen in South Eola.

I’ve always wished someone would remodel Church Street Exchange and turn it into a proper public market instead of being the weird shopping mall with an arcade it opened as. Think LA Farmers Market and not the Grove! Using it as office space is such a waste. East End Market seems to be going gangbusters and is incubating some of Orlando’s more interesting new food concepts, but parking is horrendous around Audubon Park. Would like to see that scale up somewhere with more space and more parking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GregoryMCSE]

On 8/21/2022 at 1:16 PM, IAmFloridaBorn said:

This would be Orlando's fifth tallest if it happens.

It would be the 10 tallest  I think.  These heights are from this site and Emporis.  
 

The tallest high-rises in Orlando are:

• Suntrust Center, 1988, 441 ft (134 m) is the tallest building in Central Florida.
• The Vue at Lake Eola, 2008, 426 ft (130 m)
• The Orange County Courthouse, 1997, 416 ft (127 m)
• The Bank of America Center, 1988, 404 ft (123 m)
• Society (380?)
• 55 West on the Esplanade, 2009, 377 ft (115 m)
• Solaire at the Plaza, 2006, 359 ft (109 m)

Dynatech (356)

church Street Plaza (326?)

[IAmFloridaBorn]

9 hours ago, GregoryMCSE said:

It would be the 10 tallest  I think.  These heights are from this site and Emporis.  
 

The tallest high-rises in Orlando are:

• Suntrust Center, 1988, 441 ft (134 m) is the tallest building in Central Florida.
• The Vue at Lake Eola, 2008, 426 ft (130 m)
• The Orange County Courthouse, 1997, 416 ft (127 m)
• The Bank of America Center, 1988, 404 ft (123 m)
• Society (380?)
• 55 West on the Esplanade, 2009, 377 ft (115 m)
• Solaire at the Plaza, 2006, 359 ft (109 m)

Dynatech (356)

church Street Plaza (326?)

At 37 stories, it would be 395ft. Which currently would make it the fifth tallest.....

 

Currently being the key word. 

Edited August 25, 2022 by IAmFloridaBorn

[GregoryMCSE]

2 hours ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

At 37 stories, it would be 395ft. Which currently would make it the fifth tallest.....

 

Currently being the key word. 

Sorry I was going by the 325 on the thread title. I missed the 395 news.  I hope this comes to pass.