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Brooklyn Village Redevelopment in 2nd Ward


atlrvr

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I just read up on St. Paul Baptist Church in Belmont. Apparently their congregation's original location was at 300 McDowell St: An address that, according to google maps, does not exist any more. According to the church's website, it was part of urban renewal in 1969. So, along with homes, schools, and businesses, the city leaders destroyed churches because the Federal government gave them money to build government things. I still can't believe all of that happened 50 years ago.

Edited by SgtCampsalot
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Second Ward, or "Brooklyn", was by far the largest victim of urban renewal in Uptown. Some pictures:

2nd Street between Caldwell and Brevard:

Brooklyn_Charlotte_large.jpg?62251091620

Today:

https://goo.gl/maps/8iuKV8JAtnR2

Grace A.M.E Zion Church, off S Brevard:

zion.jpg

Today:

https://goo.gl/maps/DC7mQ8BrWgC2

Second Ward High School:

Second_Ward_exterior_smallest.47140150_s

Today (only the gymnasium remains):

https://goo.gl/maps/HzLe6wPEP3F2

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/19/2015 at 0:50 PM, Jayvee said:

I have to say, being a HUGE opponent of this project, I took a special hard hat tour of the property and I was actually very impressed with the street presence.

  • Along stonewall you have the waterfall feature as well as it will have big trees that will cover the wall and blend in with the waterfall.
  • In that triangle section between the property and the 277 bridge there is going to be a public sculpture garden
  • There is 4000 SF of space that is able to be/and planned to be, converted to retail should the need arise (fire rated, concrete top, etc)
  • The ground floor at Stonewall & McDowell is not just the leasing lobby, but also resident space with floor to ceiling glass that will help activate the street
  • The pool deck has a "side walk" look out where residents can stand out over and "interact" with the sidewalk below (I hope this isn't taken advantage of with residents throwing things and such)
  • Resident "front lawn" on McDowell will help pedestrians too
  • No cars behind bars, garage is completely concealed on stonewall

Could it be better? Sure, but honestly apart from Camden Gallery this project does more to activate the pedestrian level than any other project around town. There is going to be a tree lawn and sidewalk, while I generally would like hard scape, the traffic is moving SO fast here, and there is already a bike lane, I think a tree lawn works.

Also, with their Actor's Theater site project, there will be a 22 foot setback!!

Sorry friend, but the waterfall feature doesn't make it better. Is it better than a large brick wall? Yes. But we should hold ourselves to a higher standard. An 'activated' ground floor means that there are uses where people are coming and going next to the sidewalk. If people actually use the 'resident space' then it may help a little as long as it's not curtained off all the time. The front door on the corner counts too, but the rest of it doesn't. My favorite example of a non-commercial active street front in a mixed-use mid rise is actually on Smith Street in 4th Ward, or 3030 South in the New Bern Station area. 

I forget who posted this, but this is Massachusetts Ave in Boston. It's conceptually the same as 3030 South. If we can build enough stuff like this (again in terms of design principles, not specific architectural style) it will quickly start to make a difference here in Charlotte.

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17 minutes ago, Spartan said:

Sorry friend, but the waterfall feature doesn't make it better. Is it better than a large brick wall? Yes. But we should hold ourselves to a higher standard. An 'activated' ground floor means that there are uses where people are coming and going next to the sidewalk. If people actually use the 'resident space' then it may help a little as long as it's not curtained off all the time. The front door on the corner counts too, but the rest of it doesn't. My favorite example of a non-commercial active street front in a mixed-use mid rise is actually on Smith Street in 4th Ward, or 3030 South in the New Bern Station area. 

I forget who posted this, but this is Massachusetts Ave in Boston. It's conceptually the same as 3030 South. If we can build enough stuff like this (again in terms of design principles, not specific architectural style) it will quickly start to make a difference here in Charlotte.

Between a heavily decorated front wall, public sculpture garden, resident overlook to engage the walkers, an active resident lobby, front doors to a sidewalk lawn, and retail space in the future what else could you possibly want? 

Also this isn't a very pedestrian friendly area. Even when the rest of stonewall is built out its not like people will walk by this site and go "man I wish there was some more activation of this building. A sculpture garden, retail, front porches and a waterfall is just not enough!"

Edited by Jayvee
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10 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

As usual, it's better than nothing. It doesn't make it good. Its tolerable at best. It's just simply better than nothing. 

I agree that everything about this building from the 2nd floor and up is garbage, but after seeing what the final product will look like....I don't know what else you guys want to make the ground floor solid. To me it is. Is it perfect? No, but even if apartment development here was great not everything would be perfect.

Those 2 links Spartan put there, those 2 projects have stoops....big whoop. As a pedestrian, I really couldn't care less about a stoop that no one utilizes. This area of Stonewall is never going to feel like a quiet neighborhood. Now as a pedestrian walking from Target or Whole Foods, if I walk by a tiny public park or a cool waterfall feature....thats WAY better than a never used stoop.

Edited by Jayvee
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11 minutes ago, Jayvee said:

I agree that everything about this building from the 2nd floor and up is garbage, but after seeing what the final product will look like....I don't know what else you guys want to make the ground floor solid.

Weird, our opinions of this building are inversed. I think the upper floors of this building (at least the sides NOT facing 277), aren't too bad, mostly due to the fact that the balconies are structural rather than jutting slabs of concrete. This is coming from a place of lowered standards and expectations vs. the southend norm, but it looks like some decent quality materials. The ground floor however, no matter how many items can be ticked off as "active" on paper, feels barren to me aside from the admittedly decent corner. The pool deck "lookout" and McDowell "front lawn" are real stretches of a branding effort by the developer to paint what is just a barrier between public and private space as active. Since this building is not podium and wraps its parking deck, it seems like they had every opportunity to do nice ground level units with patios, but instead most of it feels unnecessarily cordoned off and pushed up to the second floor.

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I hear you  I really do. The reason I ask is because I want to demonstrate what good could be done instead of bad. But none of this is a compelling argument for this particular site. Who the hell is gonna want a ground patio unit on a street like stonewall right here. It's just not a ped friendly corridor. And while I totally agree the lawn and overlook are MONSTER stretches the sculpture garden/tiny pocket park and the sidewalk are not. This is an area that didn't need hardscape and their tree lawn will help barrier walkers from the cars that treat stonewall like a highway right here. 

 

I I would agree this project sucks in a neighborhood area but having seen where the final product is going I just don't see the ground floor as bad (at all) (for this site)

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Yeah, nobody is going to pay the same amount of rent to have a ground level unit facing Stonewall. Honestly, outdoor space at most of this complex will probably be loud. It is an awkward lot, not walkable to anything desirable, and got an awkward building designed to buffer the interstate. Fairly long walk to work in the middle of the summer too for workers in the city center. You'll be dripping in sweat. A lot of Uptown workers would probably prefer to be a short walk from a light rail stop and ride in the A/C from other neighborhoods.

Edited by CLT2014
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6 hours ago, Jayvee said:

 

I hear you  I really do. The reason I ask is because I want to demonstrate what good could be done instead of bad. But none of this is a compelling argument for this particular site. Who the hell is gonna want a ground patio unit on a street like stonewall right here. It's just not a ped friendly corridor. And while I totally agree the lawn and overlook are MONSTER stretch

 

 

es the sculpture garden/tiny pocket park and the sidewalk are not. This is an area that didn't need hardscape and their tree lawn will help barrier walkers from the cars that treat stonewall like a highway right here. 

 

I I would agree this project sucks in a neighborhood area but having seen where the final product is going I just don't see the ground floor as bad (at all) (for this site)

For some reason I thought I've read you opine before that we get a fair share of lackluster projects? For example, the Charlotte Observer written an article about the quality of projects we are getting and Center City Partners is wanting higher design standards. I think Fountains @ Stonewall is better than nothing. It's alright. Its not great. Just like Woodfield Graham or Mint. Rather they have been built than not but they're still meh. Element. I love the way it looks, makes 3rd ward feel dense but street level is lousy. Could be better. But again, better than nothing.

 

 

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I'm with Spartan on this one.  I do not like this project one bit.  A waterfall and an overlook from a swimming pool don't create any street level activity, sorry, they don't.  No resident is going to "interact" with a sidewalk from a story up.  The ground floor isn't "bad" now because the area is relatively dead.  But one day that'll caddy corner up to Brooklyn village and be a missed opportunity.  I want to hire whoever pitched this thing to you Jayvee, they are a marketing mastermind.

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24 minutes ago, ah59396 said:

I'm with Spartan on this one.  I do not like this project one bit.  A waterfall and an overlook from a swimming pool don't create any street level activity, sorry, they don't.  No resident is going to "interact" with a sidewalk from a story up.  The ground floor isn't "bad" now because the area is relatively dead.  But one day that'll caddy corner up to Brooklyn village and be a missed opportunity.  I want to hire whoever pitched this thing to you Jayvee, they are a marketing mastermind.

No one pitched it to me. I just walked around and saw it formyself. But again no one is giving me what COULD have been. Done instead. What could have been done so that all of you would go "wow great" because it seems like there's nothing on earth that could be done to satisfy you.  there's retail to use in the future. A buffer between side walk and cars zooming down stonewall. There's a pocket park. What else do you want?

Edited by Jayvee
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10 minutes ago, Jayvee said:

No one pitched it to me. I just walked around and saw it formyself. But again no one is giving me what COULD have been. Done instead. What could have been done so that all of you would go "wow great" because it seems like there's nothing on earth that could be done to satisfy you.  there's retail to use in the future. A buffer between side walk and cars zooming down stonewall. There's a pocket park. What else do you want?

 

 

Full retail wrap.  Not beige.  No giant lobby at the corner.  No waterfall feature (this one is hilarious to me, I've never been in uptown and felt that a waterfall on the side of an office building "activated" the street or made me interact with it at all.  It just creates a barrier with the building and feels like an office park).  All of those things would satisfy me.  I'm not going to suddenly become complacent because it's better than nothing.  And I'll gladly eat crow the day that 4000 sq feet is EVER turned into retail, because I don't buy it.  A lot of the stuff you are touting (resident front lawn, seriously??) typically get blasted on here.  I don't speak for anyone besides myself, but it can definitely be better.  

 

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21 minutes ago, Jayvee said:
45 minutes ago, ah59396 said:

  I want to hire whoever pitched this thing to you Jayvee, they are a marketing mastermind.

 LOL.  I think developers have started hiring "minders" for Jayvee kind of like North Korea has "minders" for tourists.  That way Jayvee sees only what they want him to see.  Since October, developers have realized that his 50 cent pen and dollar notepad can become quite expensive for them, so they want to make sure they can control the narrative before Jayvee takes it.  In some sense, Charlotte is a development dystopia.

21 minutes ago, Jayvee said:

What else do you want?

A crew with an excavator, bulldozer, and wrecking ball to show up, level this place, and start from scratch.

 

Edit: Please forgive the quotes in quotes.  Operator error with multiquote, and I can't seem to fix it.

Edited by cltbwimob
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What retail stores would succeed on that block? It isn't close to anything and people would have to drive to get to the stores - if they had to have enough parking for retail, the structure would have to be much larger on such a small lot.

I think the problem is this lot was developed ahead of its time. It probably needed to sit vacant until the wave of development made it toward that far removed corner so a quality project would be built. With nothing else in the area, I don't think retail would have been feasible and the developers knew that the rent they would need to charge stores for being in a new building would probably not justify the foot traffic (I.E. ZERO) and inconvenience for parking there. The retail stores would die (or honestly never be dumb enough to pick that location) and we'd have a block of windows covered up with signage of beautiful people pretending to shop like a ghost mall.

Edited by CLT2014
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Just now, cltbwimob said:

 

Haha, ouch!  Jayvee and I may not agree here, but typically we do.  He's an important voice for the cause of urbanism that we all support in Charlotte.  So i'm glad he's got some clout now.  Hopefully the Presley isn't the last development rolling out the red carpet to try and impress him.  We need a voice like Jayvee's because he has a little more leeway on throwing his opinion out there.

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41 minutes ago, ah59396 said:

Haha, ouch!  Jayvee and I may not agree here, but typically we do.  He's an important voice for the cause of urbanism that we all support in Charlotte.  So i'm glad he's got some clout now.  Hopefully the Presley isn't the last development rolling out the red carpet to try and impress him.  We need a voice like Jayvee's because he has a little more leeway on throwing his opinion out there.

Oh I know Jayvee is an important voice for our cause, I was just giving him a hard time.  If you read closely the post is actually a veiled compliment with respect to Jayvee's ability to get developers to make changes to crappy projects.

Edited by cltbwimob
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3 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

What retail stores would succeed on that block? It isn't close to anything and people would have to drive to get to the stores - if they had to have enough parking for retail, the structure would have to be much larger on such a small lot.

I think the problem is this lot was developed ahead of its time. It probably needed to sit vacant until the wave of development made it toward that far removed corner so a quality project would be built. With nothing else in the area, I don't think retail would have been feasible and the developers knew that the rent they would need to charge stores for being in a new building would probably not justify the foot traffic (I.E. ZERO) and inconvenience for parking there. The retail stores would die (or honestly never be dumb enough to pick that location) and we'd have a block of windows covered up with signage of beautiful people pretending to shop like a ghost mall.

 

I don't disagree with you, I think it likely was developed too early only because it was cheap and still inside uptown.  The problem is that one day down the rod, it will be an active area.  And we'll have yet another dead block.  So it's like a chicken before the egg scenario.  At the end of the day though, it's the same old crap we are seeing everywhere.  And I'm tired of it.  You ask me what would "wow" me...something, anything different or unique.

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18 minutes ago, ah59396 said:

Haha, ouch!  Jayvee and I may not agree here, but typically we do.  He's an important voice for the cause of urbanism that we all support in Charlotte.  So i'm glad he's got some clout now.  Hopefully the Presley isn't the last development rolling out the red carpet to try and impress him.  We need a voice like Jayvee's because he has a little more leeway on throwing his opinion out there.

Thanks bro I appreciate that. And I'm not defending the overall project because I'm still not a fan but I actually think it's pretty solid for what it is. We say we want full retail wrap here but honestly even when the area is built out I don't think things would survive  it'd be mostly driving to retail which would require a larger deck yadda yadda. I think we are gonna see a much more positive project with their actors site  and if it sucks they blew me smoke, they'll hear about it :)

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I moved to Charlotte from a place that was built in a chaotic and disorganized way. This is how developers executed "exciting" for a new apartment complex when I lived in Los Angeles. I'm honestly impressed by how nice Charlotte looks compared to the stucco in my old neighborhood - but my standards are probably pretty low because L.A. had awesome SFH architecture, but awful multi-family.

xfs_500x400_s100_IMG_4750-0.jpg

Edited by CLT2014
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Presley will always be an island, surrounded by 277, Stonewall, and McDowell.  Those streets are not pedestrian friendly anywhere, and unless a street diet takes place, walking will always be difficult.  Passing by the 277 entrances/egresses is always challenging.

It is "sort of" urban, but if I was a merchant, that is the last place I would want to set up shop.

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33 minutes ago, DMann said:

Presley will always be an island, surrounded by 277, Stonewall, and McDowell.  Those streets are not pedestrian friendly anywhere, and unless a street diet takes place, walking will always be difficult.  Passing by the 277 entrances/egresses is always challenging.

It is "sort of" urban, but if I was a merchant, that is the last place I would want to set up shop.

The 2020 Vision Plan States the following:

“Stonewall Street will be a main connection between Second and Third Wards. It should be a lush, beautiful roadway for autos as well as recreational walking, strolling and cycling, similar to Queens Road in Myers Park.”

This corridor represents a tremendous opportunity that cannot be messed up! We have the opportunity to create a 1 mile long pedestrian friendly utopia from scratch, that kind of opportunity doesn’t just happen. Between the projects announced by Crescent, Proffitt Dixon, and Northwood Ravin, we have 1,250 residential units, 700-900 hotel rooms, over 100,000 sq feet of shops and restaurants, including uptowns first full size grocery store, and 750,000+ square feet of office space.  From a development perspective, this dramatic shift from nothing to something, seems to be in line with what was laid out in the cities 2020 plan; mixed uses, density, and creating a robust experience for residents.
 
The question is what is the city doing to make sure that stonewall gets the treatment that this new “pedestrian utopia” deserves. 
To me its up to the city to get in there, kickstart these changes and Make sure Stonewall reaches its full potential. Let us not forget that its a 5 minute walk from Presley to Met Midtown. There is a really great opportunity here guys. 

 

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