Brooklyn Village Redevelopment in 2nd Ward

[Synopsis101]

Any news on the church adjacent to Brooklyn Village?

[Guest]

^^^ The news is, it'll be there, until someone offers to build them a new one somewhere in exchange for the land.

Interestingly First Baptist of Charlotte, was the first African American Church in Brooklyn, now its probably one of the whitest churches in the city. If thats not Brooklyn in a nutshell, I don't know what is. 

Edited May 11, 2016 by Guest

[15895]

So this news, which seems fairly realistic and near term (in contrast to Levineville & even North Tryon), in addition to the 277 parcels, Stonewall station, Tryon Place, Charlotte Observer (which increasingly seems realistic and near term, too) on top of existing BoA Stadium, BBT stadium, Romare Park, the museums, NASCAR HoF, Metropolitan.... I would love to see the silver line go down Stonewall.

 

The Stonewall corridor should be something special relatively soon.

Edited May 11, 2016 by AirNostrumMAD

[alb1no panther]

Why not just eminent domain their butts?  They get mad, who cares?  It's small potatoes.  I say we do the same thing to Primitive Baptist at Gateway, too.  If you won't build cathedrals, then you don't deserve the land imo.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I would love to see the silver line go down Stonewall.

This 

[Synopsis101]

15 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

So this news, which seems fairly realistic and near term (in contrast to Levineville & even North Tryon), in addition to the 277 parcels, Stonewall station, Tryon Place, Charlotte Observer (which increasingly seems realistic and near term, too) on top of existing BoA Stadium, BBT stadium, Romare Park, the museums, NASCAR HoF, Metropolitan.... I would love to see the silver line go down Stonewall.

 

The Stonewall corridor should be something special relatively soon.

Biggest reason I prefer option 4. I also want Midtown to connect to Uptown seamlessly. 

Edited May 11, 2016 by Synopsis101

[CLT2014]

8 minutes ago, alb1no panther said:

Why not just eminent domain their butts?  They get mad, who cares?  It's small potatoes.  I say we do the same thing to Primitive Baptist at Gateway, too.  If you won't build cathedrals, then you don't deserve the land imo.

What do you want there, a park... wider road? Per the state's law, this is what the city or county could do with the land (i.e. not build a for profit apartment):

(b) Local Public Condemnors – Standard Provision. – For the public use or benefit, the governing body of each municipality or county shall possess the power of eminent domain and may acquire by purchase, gift or condemnation any property, either inside or outside its boundaries, for the following purposes. (1) Opening, widening, extending, or improving roads, streets, alleys, and sidewalks. The authority contained in this subsection is in addition to the authority to acquire rights-of-way for streets, sidewalks and highways under Article 9 of Chapter 136. The provisions of this subdivision (1) shall not apply to counties. (2) Establishing, extending, enlarging, or improving any of the public enterprises listed in G.S. 160A-311 for cities, or G.S. 153A-274 for counties. (3) Establishing, enlarging, or improving parks, playgrounds, and other recreational facilities. (4) Establishing, extending, enlarging, or improving storm sewer and drainage systems and works, or sewer and septic tank lines and systems. (5) Establishing, enlarging, or improving hospital facilities, cemeteries, or library facilities. NC General Statutes - Chapter 40A Article 1 4 (6) Constructing, enlarging, or improving city halls, fire stations, office buildings, courthouse jails and other buildings for use by any department, board, commission or agency. (7) Establishing drainage programs and programs to prevent obstructions to the natural flow of streams, creeks and natural water channels or improving drainage facilities. The authority contained in this subdivision is in addition to any authority contained in Chapter 156. (8) Acquiring designated historic properties, designated as such before October 1, 1989, or acquiring a designated landmark designated as such on or after October 1, 1989, for which an application has been made for a certificate of appropriateness for demolition, in pursuance of the purposes of G.S. 160A-399.3, Chapter 160A, Article 19, Part 3B, effective until October 1, 1989, or G.S. 160A-400.14, whichever is appropriate. (9) Opening, widening, extending, or improving public wharves

Edited May 11, 2016 by CLT2014

[alb1no panther]

conservation easement, i.e., just move the park to that location.

 

Besides, the Eminent Domain statute does not provide redress for violating the use restrictions.  It would have to be a court sitting in equity, and I know of no N.C. precedent without further research, and the SCOTUS has a carte blanche approach to ED.

Edited May 11, 2016 by alb1no panther

[SgtCampsalot]

1 hour ago, Synopsis101 said:

Any news on the church adjacent to Brooklyn Village?

 

1 hour ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

^^^ The news is, it'll be there, until someone offers to build them a new one somewhere in exchange for the land.

Interestingly First Baptist of Charlotte, was the first African American Church in Brooklyn, now its probably one of the whitest churches in the city. If thats not Brooklyn in a nutshell, I don't know what is. 

Which church? AME Zion? 

[Synopsis101]

8 minutes ago, SgtCampsalot said:

 

Which church? AME Zion? 

https://goo.gl/maps/Am959hd2EQn

[atlrvr]

1 hour ago, alb1no panther said:

Why not just eminent domain their butts?  They get mad, who cares?  It's small potatoes.  I say we do the same thing to Primitive Baptist at Gateway, too.  If you won't build cathedrals, then you don't deserve the land imo.

Hmmmm...pretty sure this was the line of thinking that got the original Brooklyn Village demolished.

 

1 hour ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

So this news, which seems fairly realistic and near term (in contrast to Levineville & even North Tryon), in addition to the 277 parcels, Stonewall station, Tryon Place, Charlotte Observer (which increasingly seems realistic and near term, too) on top of existing BoA Stadium, BBT stadium, Romare Park, the museums, NASCAR HoF, Metropolitan.... I would love to see the silver line go down Stonewall.

 

The Stonewall corridor should be something special relatively soon.

I personally rather see streetcar........atlrvr dream routing is from Double Oak redevelopment on Statesville Ave, down to Graham Street, through Uptown with stop at Gateway Station, then down Stonewall, straight on Kenilworth through Dilworth, utiliizing Kenilworth/Scott one-way pairing, turning around at the intersection with Park Rd (Duke sub-station).

Actually, on the northern end, I would have a circular routing with the northbound routing utilize the abandoned rail ROW just north of Dalton and parallel Graham, up to Atando, then moving west along Atando, and returning inbound (southbond) along Statesville.

 

EDIT.....I'm a big fan of Option 1 on that routing map for Silver Line

[alb1no panther]

5 minutes ago, atlrvr said:

Hmmmm...pretty sure this was the line of thinking that got the original Brooklyn Village demolished.

 

They're in the way of a community betterment.  That's the way the world works.  Race, economic status, gender, social stigma [sex offender housing] . . . cry foul all you want.  Point is, the larger community can better itself by you doing it or by being paid off so we can do it ourselves.

[jednc]

21 hours ago, tarhoosier said:

Thank you for your question Jednc. Others may turn up photos of the original Brooklyn. It was not so much a slum as a home for those who were born on the wrong side of the social order. Black people were able to live only in the places that were allotted to them. This was Brooklyn. Wooden houses, structurally insufficient (to put it mildly), some without full plumbing, some without heat, streets unpaved, no storm gutters or sewers; a residue of decades of neglect. I cannot say for certain but I feel sure that the owners of the property on which these homes and businesses sat were not those who resided therein. Thus the people could be moved with impunity and the property redeveloped. This is my memory of the history. Many of the residents were resettled in the new Dalton Village off West Boulevard. Dalton Village has been utterly redone and does not truly resemble what it was in 1968. It had a precipitous decline phase almost from the first tenant since it was a concentration of those with no place to go after Brooklyn. Dalton Village is very much improved today.

I just asked my wife, a 60 year resident of Charlotte about her memory of Brooklyn which is better than mine. She remembers it well. Unpainted houses, most shotgun style. "Country shacks in the city with some small gardens, and livestock wandering, including pigs, a goat or two and chickens, as well as dogs, of course". Dirt "streets". An eyesore, in other words.

 

 

21 hours ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

Yes some of the Brooklyn Neighborhood looked like this...

Quite a bit of it in fact. 

But it also looked like this.

and this

and this. How nice would it be to have this as a venue today?

 

I'm a little behind in this thread, so I'm responding to these posts before I read the next 2 pages of new posts.

Tarhoosier, thank you for that insight and your descriptions. It is hard to believe the area you described was within a few blocks of the square! Your insight is also appreciated. So many of our opinions today are colored by what we think we are supposed to think and it's hard to get a handle on what the people of that era must have thought and felt.

Ricky_Davis_Fan, awesome pictures. I appreciate the dichotomy of the pictures you shared. Based on the first picture, I can see why city leaders wanted to change things. Based on the last three you shared, it's a SHAME they bulldozed the entire ward instead of selectively improving certain parts. Charlotte would seem like a different city today if those businesses had been spared.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, jednc said:

 

I'm a little behind in this thread, so I'm responding to these posts before I read the next 2 pages of new posts.

Tarhoosier, thank you for that insight and your descriptions. It is hard to believe the area you described was within a few blocks of the square! Your insight is also appreciated. So many of our opinions today are colored by what we think we are supposed to think and it's hard to get a handle on what the people of that era must have thought and felt.

Ricky_Davis_Fan, awesome pictures. I appreciate the dichotomy of the pictures you shared. Based on the first picture, I can see why city leaders wanted to change things. Based on the last three you shared, it's a SHAME they bulldozed the entire ward instead of selectively improving certain parts. Charlotte would seem like a different city today if those businesses had been spared.

@jednc Its astounding. I often find myself looking back at what was. Can you imagine if they had left Tryon Street completely intact with all of its historic structures and built out from there. Charlotte would have some of the best character, sprinkled in with tall skyscrapers in the South. Its just a shame. There were SO MANY neat buildings that we will never see. 

Imagine if these were still there today! 

Sorry for taking this incredibly off topic guys!!!!!

Edited May 11, 2016 by Guest

[NYCLT]

On a superficial look I'm in the camp of loving those townhouses depicted by Crescent but I also take more stock in RDF's word than a single picture. The challenge here is definitely creating cohesion between the College/Tryon area of Uptown and the dead zones of the Brevard/Caldwell area (NASCAR, former AT&T, Zion, Convention Center, Fahrenheit, Gov Center parking deck, CTC, etc.)... all the Stonewall development will obviously help big time but the dream is complete cohesion across those streets, the government district and into Levlineland... a guy can dream though right?

[Nick2]

I definitely like Conformity's plan the most. Crescents is also nice and although I like the design of the town homes and how they give a more homey feel to the area, I do NOT want town homes in uptown. They should shoot for denser development in my opinion.

I think the citisculpt plan calls for adding improvements to marshall park so they'd keep it right? If they could get first baptist to move, Marshall park could potentially become the flagship park in Uptown and would be more than double the size of romare bearden. Or is Marshall going to be gone for sure?

All three plans would be great for the area though; I  just wish they all called for more high rises and maybe a skyscraper or two.

[15895]

I love the townehomes, especially the extra roads they create. I think it would add to the authentic urbanity that Charlotte gets critized for lacking. Crescent would be my first pick if they're capable of being able to deliver as fast as conformity.

 

 

[Guest]

To Dissuade people further from liking Crescents. Lets compare numbers of each. Numbers are not published yet of Crescent but I was able to get them. 

Crescent
• 650 multifamily units (market rate rental), 200,000 square feet of office space, 160 affordable housing units (rental) and 65 mixed-income, for-sale townhomes

Uses are spread out and inefficient in my opinion. Yes they could be shovel ready for the entire district as soon as the purchase is approved, and I absolutely love the fact that they are trying to save the marshall park trees, and I love the for sale townhouses. It closely aligns with what I originally envisioned myself. I also like the fact that it bridges the gap between stonewall 3rd and MLK with Grigsby Street.

Conformity
1,243 residential units, 280 hotel rooms in two hotels by Intercontinental Group, 680,700 square feet of office space and 252,100 square feet of retail space.

In my opinion, there is only one negative about Crescents vision, and thats the lack of plans for the block between Walton Plaza and Brooklyn Village. With that said, I'm not 100% sure thats actually an option that is on the table. I had the opportunity to see 2 of these plans well ahead of time, and was stunned that one was including this land. So I'm not sure that its a detriment, I think getting that land might be difficult. That said, the density, uses, and overall "completeness" of this vision is what gets me. There is great attention to the street level experience, retail, 252k!!!!! and the fact that there are two hotels by Intercontinental Group has me giddy. They have relationships created, and they are ready to get going. I agree with ATLVR that the location of the office tower is a little weird, but hey, its the closest spot in uptown to Dilworth and Myers Park, so avoid the rigamarole of uptown traffic. Also, Honestly the fact that Conformity brought Peebles to the table is HUGE. They are a pretty big deal and have a national reach. 
http://peeblescorp.com/projects-in-development/

Citisculpt
1,378 residential units along with hotels, retail space and offices.
I like the inclusion of the aquatic center expansion in this, and I really like the shapes of the buildings, they seem very traditional and more than just boxes. Unfortunately I just cannot get passed the "master plan" feel of this one. They have money behind it, which is great, and there is the potention for very high density uses, It just scares me that there are two options, one big and one small. Me things that wee would end up with the small only. Also the park is way too tiny.

 

I'll follow this up with site plans.

 

Edited May 12, 2016 by Guest

[Prodev]

The difference between Crescent and the other two is that Crescent is actually going to be the developer, whereas the other two are essentially land brokers (or "Master developers" as they'd prefer) taking a piece of the action and spinning off parcels to individual developers. With Crescent, they're actually going to execute on that plan themselves, and have capital in hand to do so. The other two, they have a vision but no capital, and it'll ultimately be the developer they flip the dirt to that decides what's built. 

[SgtCampsalot]

It's hard for me to tell with my eyes, but I seems like Crescent's is the only one that tries to make the area feel like an actual neighborhood. Conformity and Citisculpt seem to me like they are making extensions of an Uptown mega block-ism district.

I don't see anything wrong with not having high rises or towers here, it's a ward, not College/Tryon/Church. First Ward is one of the best areas in the city (except for desperately lacking retail), it actually feels like a community. Townhome (especially owned) are absolutely crucial IMO to a successful uptown neighborhood, in addition to rentals.

Is Crescent thr only one doing affordable housing for-sale units?

Edited May 12, 2016 by SgtCampsalot

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, SgtCampsalot said:

It's hard for me to tell with my eyes, but I seems like Crescent's is the only one that tries to make the area feel like an actual neighborhood. Conformity and Citisculpt seem to me like they are making extensions of an Uptown mega block-ism district.

EDIT: HAD TO DELETE. Can repost later, around noon.

 

Edited May 12, 2016 by Guest

[SentioVenia]

IT'S AFTERNOON, MAN!  GET ON IT!

[Guest]

Just now, SentioVenia said:

IT'S AFTERNOON, MAN!  GET ON IT!

haven't gotten approval yet LOL

[SgtCampsalot]

Is Crescent's plan the only one including affordable housing units? I thought the county/city said that was their goal regardless, but I'm not seeing that part included in the other two plans.

[mfowler12]

i know density is always a target, but i'm going the other way with this opportunity. I like the idea of some walkup townhome units or something similar. Heck - even more single family homes would be good with me. I think it would help to attract a more diverse mix of residents as well. I'm opposed to more 5 story square boxes no matter what they are dressed like or what retail they provide on the ground floor. I think there needs to be some options that people can move into FROM those square boxes or we're going to lose those apartment dwellers to subdivisions outside 485. For me, I'm not sure any hit the mark.