Brooklyn Village Redevelopment in 2nd Ward

[deleted]

Like a few others, I actually like the scale of Crescent's "proposal".  I like how the town-homes impact the public space (though i'd want fewer total than indicated).  Ideally, the final will combine elements of both the Crescent and Conformity plans (a mix of higher and lower density).  I think it would be great to winnow this down to the two and ask for alterations/more details (like approved financing and timelines for building).  I've always enjoyed this stretch of N. Poplar (and this has the potential to be much better):

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Prospect+St,+Charlotte,+NC+28204/@35.2325435,-80.839985,3a,60y,189.72h,90.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCLkLBhwFkHnQgt54YWS6Og!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x8856a01c3b44dcef:0xeb81250836b72f3b!8m2!3d35.2209586!4d-80.8258771

 

[urbanlover568]

Wasn't this the same company with a massive proposal for the West side of Charlotte? 

[mfowler12]

Is there a specific reason - maybe political - why this isn't being targeted to a retail focused developer. This seems like it would be a large enough parcel to plop down a well designed retail center. Do the numbers just not work?

[SgtCampsalot]

33 minutes ago, mfowler12 said:

Is there a specific reason - maybe political - why this isn't being targeted to a retail focused developer. This seems like it would be a large enough parcel to plop down a well designed retail center. Do the numbers just not work?

You mean like the Metropolitan? 

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, mfowler12 said:

Is there a specific reason - maybe political - why this isn't being targeted to a retail focused developer. This seems like it would be a large enough parcel to plop down a well designed retail center. Do the numbers just not work?

Conformities plan has a lot, LOT, LOT of retail. 150k+. Also Rumor has it Lincoln Harris is doing 2x more. This is well known to developers, and LH is in a better spot for retail than Brooklyn Village

Brick and mortar retail is taking a hit nation wide. Big hit. Retailers will need a slam dunk. 600 S Tryon Address is a slam dunk. McDowell, 3rd, Stonewall addresses etc... Not so much.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Guest

[Conformity]

12 hours ago, Prodev said:

The difference between Crescent and the other two is that Crescent is actually going to be the developer, whereas the other two are essentially land brokers (or "Master developers" as they'd prefer) taking a piece of the action and spinning off parcels to individual developers. With Crescent, they're actually going to execute on that plan themselves, and have capital in hand to do so. The other two, they have a vision but no capital, and it'll ultimately be the developer they flip the dirt to that decides what's built. 

Where Conformity Corp is concerned, Prodev is incorrect in every instance.  Anyone following our work for an extended period of time knows this.

[DEnd]

33 minutes ago, mfowler12 said:

Is there a specific reason - maybe political - why this isn't being targeted to a retail focused developer. This seems like it would be a large enough parcel to plop down a well designed retail center. Do the numbers just not work?

A retail center would need to be on the light rail line, otherwise the majority of shoppers would drive there and driving into uptown for retail does not work.  The city right now is more concerned with heads in beds in uptown than it is major retail.  The major retailers need a population base of about 100,000 people (Wal-Mart and Target numbers are quite a bit lower than that) as well as projected growth in order to do business.  Since uptown will not attract drivers, they need that base to be transit riders, or within walking distance.  Right now The city has about 1/4 of what is needed.  Once the BLE opens We'll get a lot closer, but I doubt we'll see much movement towards major retail (department stores and their hangers on) until at minimum the street car becomes basically a done deal, though I would wager the silver line routing is likely more important. 

regardless there is ~250K sqft of retail in 2 of the proposals, that's about the size of a small mall.  Most of that would likely be neighborhood centric stuff like restaurants, sundries, etc...  And those are arguably more important for a neighborhood than cloth and gadget places. 

[Conformity]

12 hours ago, Prodev said:

The difference between Crescent and the other two is that Crescent is actually going to be the developer, whereas the other two are essentially land brokers (or "Master developers" as they'd prefer) taking a piece of the action and spinning off parcels to individual developers. With Crescent, they're actually going to execute on that plan themselves, and have capital in hand to do so. The other two, they have a vision but no capital, and it'll ultimately be the developer they flip the dirt to that decides what's built. 

Where Conformity Corp is concerned, Prodev is incorrect in every instance.  Anyone following our work for an extended period of time knows this.

[Conformity]

On 5/11/2016 at 10:09 AM, atlrvr said:

The Crescent images definitely have the "livable" feeling, but it's a bit disingenuous (or perhaps, genius if they win), to render townhouses with concrete cornices with 100-years worth of weathering pock-marks. 

The overall density of Crescent is lower, but probably the clearest/least-risky build out over a realistic time horizon.  They would need to pay the least for land, or get some sort of subsidy.

The Conformity plan is nice in the mix of uses, but I'm a bit confused by the office tower being furthest point from the core....I would think closer to Tryon along Stonewall is more logical there....

>>>>>>The tower at this location is a planning gesture.  At this corner of Stonewall and McDowell, the world asks pedestrians coming from the Greenway, Metropolitan and Dilworth/Morehead to pass under I-277.  The tower says to the pedestrian (and others), "The world continues over here and it's pretty cool....just make the trip under I-277". The tower is the gravity.  It's also a gate post, has phenomenal visibility, protected solar corridors and ease of access.  It's the closest Class A building of its size to Myer's Park, Eastover, both hospitals, Elizabeth, etc. and has great proximity to the Greenway and Metropolitan (not to mention the services in  Brooklyn Village North by way of Myer's Passage).

I guess the idea was the Hotel would be better located, but personally think the marketability of office space vs hotel rooms is more proximity dependent.

>>>>>>>I suppose we'll find out.  ;-)  The hotel you reference is the shortest distance of any from a freeway exit to the parking entrance in uptown Charlotte.  And again superb signage visibility.    

There is a nice neighborhood feel of NoHo for the few block of the Brooklyn Village core....actually, reminds me a lot of what is being built in German and Dutch in-fill redevelopments of previous industrial sites.  Hamburg port is a good example.

>>>>>>>Every inch must be superbly planned but Stonewall (Brooklyn Village South), is necessarily unlike our Brooklyn Village North site and thank you for noticing.

Don't like the Citisculpt proposal at all, because its just a modern, denser version of the Urban Renewal vision of the 1960s.

 

[DEnd]

13 minutes ago, Conformity said:

Where Conformity Corp is concerned, Prodev is incorrect in every instance.  Anyone following our work for an extended period of time knows this.

Just throwing this out there, but if y'all win, could y'all at least consider doing one of the buildings to Passive House standards?  I understand the latent heat load in our climate may make this challenging, but I think it could be a good market differentiator. 

[15895]

If the renderings of Conformity does resemble the final product, it looks great. I just assumed the buildings were place holders or just drawings that wasn't necessarily going to reflect the final design (thinking the hotel for 300 south Tryon looks nothing like the initial renderings)

 

What's disappointing about the 3rd bid, it seems like a recycled presentation from the first time, I assume, they lost. I see One Charlotte & 210 Trade in their rendering. Maybe they should just focus on North Tryon (which I hope just because the amazing and one of my favorite people, Harvey Gantt is associated with this bid, it doesn't influence the decision makers)

Even though I think Crescent looks more classic (like the Flat Iron in Elizabeth that was proposed. Nice classic look), Conformity and the other seems to have the potential to be a destination because their  street level presence of that much retail (even if sundries) is more of a draw than just townehomes. 

 

[Guest]

just landed in Charotte and I thought I'd share this amazing street level from conformitys presentation. Look at southborough. It's a true Mixed Use cohesive project. This picture shows the neighborhood vibe others were looking for previously. Every plan has its strengths and weaknesses. To me the weakness of this project is delivery schedule, but great things take a while to be fully realized. Rome wasn't built in a day after all.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Guest

[15895]

16 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

just landed in Charotte and I thought I'd share this amazing street level from conformitys presentation. Look at southborough. It's a true Mixed Use cohesive project. This picture shows the neighborhood vibe others were looking for previously. Every plan has its strengths and weaknesses. To me the weakness of this project is delivery schedule, but great things take a while to be fully realized. Rome wasn't built in a day after all.

Looks incredible and matches really good with Stonewall station and the other project on Stonewall. 

[Prodev]

10 hours ago, Conformity said:

Where Conformity Corp is concerned, Prodev is incorrect in every instance.  Anyone following our work for an extended period of time knows this.

While I know it's not as cut and dry as I may have made it sound, generally speaking, if the GP bucket is split 90/10, the guy with 90% skin in the game is clearly the one putting the guarantee on the construction loan and the guy in the 10% position is generally just along for the ride and relinquishes rights to major business decisions. If that's not the case, good for you! 

Can you elaborate on how much of the vertical development proposed that the Peebles/Conformity GP is proposing to develop versus sell?

[atlrvr]

10 hours ago, Conformity said:

>>>>>>The tower at this location is a planning gesture.  At this corner of Stonewall and McDowell, the world asks pedestrians coming from the Greenway, Metropolitan and Dilworth/Morehead to pass under I-277.  The tower says to the pedestrian (and others), "The world continues over here and it's pretty cool....just make the trip under I-277". The tower is the gravity.  It's also a gate post, has phenomenal visibility, protected solar corridors and ease of access.  It's the closest Class A building of its size to Myer's Park, Eastover, both hospitals, Elizabeth, etc. and has great proximity to the Greenway and Metropolitan (not to mention the services in  Brooklyn Village North by way of Myer's Passage).
 

>>>>>>>I suppose we'll find out.  ;-)  The hotel you reference is the shortest distance of any from a freeway exit to the parking entrance in uptown Charlotte.  And again superb signage visibility.    

In the spirit of friendly debate, I'd suspect a residential high-rise could accomplish the same planning goal of establish critical gravitational scale.

I'd point out the Metropolitan is class A and closer located to those in-town neigbhorhoods, and provide 3 parking spaces per 1000 sq of office.   If Roy Goode can get his project going, that's going to be even more primo space if marketed to firms servicing intown populations and an even healthier 3.5/1000 parking.

If I'm reading the site-plan correctly, the on-site parking ratio for the office is only ~0.75/1000 sf, which is low, even for Tryon St frontage buildings.  Point being, transit and remote parking will have to be a part of the mix on the office tower, and the tenant mix isn't going to be reliant on high-net-worth servicer providers or medical, both of which need that 3/1000 ratio.

As far as the hotel, the proximity to the ramp I'm sure is helpful, but the closest hotel to off-ramp proximity is the Radisson/Best Western/Fairfield/Crowne Plaza/Center City/....i'm sure I'm missing a few at McDowell/3rd/exit ramp, so proximity to interstate for a hotel probably makes less total impact to an urban-core property than its amenities/and proximity to actual destinations.

Less than a penny for my thoughts, and worth even less, is that the hotel works best at the corner of McDowell, because it can support a restaurant easiest, and be marketed as serving, Midtown, Dilworth, Uptown, plus the transient nature of the tenants is going to be less rate sensitive to the fact that parcel has the most highway noise and visibility.

I'd position the residential in the middle as is, but high-rise works well here, using above grade parking to get the structure "over" 277, and this still provides visual gravity to Midtown/Uptown link.  Office, would go closest to Tryon, at a smaller scale (8-stories, 150-200k sq ft, similar to Beacon's Morehead project) to help with transit accessibility and rent premiums closer to commercial center, plus get the parking ratio better.  You can gets service tenants and professional tenants, and signage opportunities are better here, as getting away from the curve in 277 is going to get more eyes on the Tenant signage.

Again, just some thoughts, and its worth what you paid

[Bikeguy]

>>>>>>The tower at this location is a planning gesture.  At this corner of Stonewall and McDowell, the world asks pedestrians coming from the Greenway, Metropolitan and Dilworth/Morehead to pass under I-277.  The tower says to the pedestrian (and others), "The world continues over here and it's pretty cool....just make the trip under I-277". The tower is the gravity.  It's also a gate post, has phenomenal visibility, protected solar corridors and ease of access.  It's the closest Class A building of its size to Myer's Park, Eastover, both hospitals, Elizabeth, etc. and has great proximity to the Greenway and Metropolitan (not to mention the services in  Brooklyn Village North by way of Myer's Passage).

Bike connectivity ( a protected bike lane) between the LSC Greenway and and the uptown CBD is a constantly moving target.  Everyone agrees that one, or even a couple, need to be built, but there's no set plan in place yet.  Stonewall is certainly in the mix but I'm not seeing any allocation of ROW for one in any of the three submittals.  Care to comment Conformity ?  

[Conformity]

This shot RDF posted is taken from McDowell and looks westward into our newly constructed "Second Street". While "newly constructed", all we've done here is place Second Street as it was configured in the 1920's (and as it remained until the '60's when demoed).  Today's sweeping curve in MLK Blvd (previously named Second Street) near the NASCAR HOF  is a by-product of urban renewal.  It is one of the horizontal planning moves that led to the superblock that supports the Ed center and Marshall Park.  Our Second Street placement runs directly into the back of the First Baptist.  Prior to urban renewal, Second Street continued on a path that would split today's church in half. 

First Street was also eliminated.  Standing on McDowell at MLK Blvd and looking uptown, the First Street intersection was about 75 feet to the left (south).  Running through the Aquatic Center parking lot, then closely flanking the Second Ward HS Gymnasium, it ran into uptown parallel to the original Second Street, behind the clock tower hotels, through NASCAR HOF and the Convention Center.

Myer's Street is reflected in our Myers Passage (in red on our plan). The gymnasium was pocketed into that hard corner...1st and Myers.  You can walk Myers in your mind's eye and perhaps should in the real world.  It's ghosts are everywhere.  I will post on its importance separately when I am able.

[SgtCampsalot]

9 minutes ago, Conformity said:

Myer's Street is reflected in our Myers Passage (in red on our plan). The gymnasium was pocketed into that hard corner...1st and Myers.  You can walk Myers in your mind's eye and perhaps should in the real world.  It's ghosts are everywhere.  I will post on its importance separately when I am able.

Please do. I've walked First/Second Ward and been disillusioned at trying to envision what must have used to be there. I've had dreams where Brooklyn's core was intact. It's tough to see.

Edited May 13, 2016 by SgtCampsalot

[mfowler12]

I do like the additional renderings. I'm a conformity fan - I owned in the Rutzler, rented in Southborough and Elizabeth Village so I can attest to the quality. I'm still opposed to a the large square box apartments and maybe the actual product will change from the renderings. isn't there a way to break up the façade of these boxes to make them look like rows of individual units. Same goes for the retail components. There's no distinguishing between retail sections. it's all one continuous façade of windows.

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, mfowler12 said:

I do like the additional renderings. I'm a conformity fan - I owned in the Rutzler, rented in Southborough and Elizabeth Village so I can attest to the quality. I'm still opposed to a the large square box apartments and maybe the actual product will change from the renderings. isn't there a way to break up the façade of these boxes to make them look like rows of individual units. Same goes for the retail components. There's no distinguishing between retail sections. it's all one continuous façade of windows.

Honestly the scale of the buildings  is very small compared to other super blocks. If you look at crescents plan an entire building spans a block where as with conformitys you have two or three buildings spanning that same block. There is a lot of architectural variety breaking up the facade. Look at the brick on one corner, followed by light grey and black stone followed by a slate blue color. Looks like a broken up building to me :-). I have lot more images to post but I'm driving to blowing rock today.

[mfowler12]

RDF - I partially agree that there is some mix of materials at least, but I think it could be pushed further to do something really unique. there's many postings with historic buildings with many wishing they still existed. I wish this could be accomplished with the blank slate that exists with this opportunity. For me, varying facades, unique elevations, etc would go along way to creating a true uptown village. although this all suggests form over function and perhaps the retail market simply has to be built with the standardization to attract more retailers.

Full disclosure, I lived in and around the uptown area for 15 years before moving to Fort Mill. And as taboo as it is to say this - Baxter Village in Fort Mill's retail component is example of the type of varying facades that hits a note with me and I just don't see done. But you can also point to the retail stretch along central and NODA that defines street level retail to me and can't understand why it's not tried to be recreated in some form.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, mfowler12 said:

RDF - I partially agree that there is some mix of materials at least, but I think it could be pushed further to do something really unique. there's many postings with historic buildings with many wishing they still existed. I wish this could be accomplished with the blank slate that exists with this opportunity. For me, varying facades, unique elevations, etc would go along way to creating a true uptown village. although this all suggests form over function and perhaps the retail market simply has to be built with the standardization to attract more retailers.

Full disclosure, I lived in and around the uptown area for 15 years before moving to Fort Mill. And as taboo as it is to say this - Baxter Village in Fort Mill's retail component is example of the type of varying facades that hits a note with me and I just don't see done. But you can also point to the retail stretch along central and NODA that defines street level retail to me and can't understand why it's not tried to be recreated in some form.

Honestly it's because the economics don't match up between the three places you named. You can develop smaller scale buildings in NoDa and Baxter Village and not have to worry about the price of the land making things cost prohibitive. When you are paying $2M for land 10 acres, you can do what you want. When you are paying 3.5M per acre things change and you need to put as many people and uses into a building as possible.

[mfowler12]

You're right - just like playing armchair NFL GM, price never matters. That said - i'll still make a final plea since we have conformity's attention to create unique store fronts at the street level. think it would go a long way and then you can plop whatever you want on top of them.

[alb1no panther]

Since 2d Street deadends, how about a fancy brick/stone/<insert> road?

[CLT704]

I wish it was more pedestrian-oriented and less about cars, like the rendering show.