Brooklyn Village Redevelopment in 2nd Ward

[CLTProductions]

While I agree the deck is WAYYYY too big and the garage entrance there sucks. It seems unavoidable. 

You COULD go about reworking the Davidson/277 light and having the egress ramps wrap around back to the building. That's ideal but very impractical. 

I do agree the slab is SO obnoxious rather than just designing with the topography, actually didn't notice that until you pointed it out. 

As far as the garage entrance goes, the rendering has the sidewalk going away. Can't imagine that being the case in the final design so it's probably safe to assume there will be a bit more PED awareness here than letting on. 

I actually like the plaza a lot but yeah with only 8k of retail there's really no reason anyone would use it other than the office workers. 

I hear your criticisms, I do, and agree with most. But I think there needs to be some level of realistic expectations as well

[15895]

Aside from less than stellar base, the scraper looks amazing. Much different than the others. Looks more like it should be located in a tropical climate

Edited June 24, 2016 by AirNostrumMAD

[southslider]

It's hard to create inviting spaces beside a super-huge intersection. This site still does a better job than even the Westin or Convention Center, which are at a much smaller intersection of Stonewall. Heck, this site plan even beats NASCAR office tower, which is at the same, large intersection. 

[CLTProductions]

Okay after continuing to look. Major criticism is legit towards the plaza. It's pointless with that little of retail. 

The slab wall is absolutely terrible. 

But yeah this is a very difficult site to work with because the intersection to the west is SO gigantic and to the east is a highway off ramp. The issue is CDOT will not let them put a new light as it'll be too close to the Caldwell and Davidson light. I really don't see a way around the egress other than reworking the Davidson light which I just don't see NWR or CDOT taking the effort to do. 

I do love the high rise design

[Guest]

This is what I'd do. 

 

[CLTProductions]

11 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

This is what I'd do. 

 

So much better. I still think this is a pretty great project. Needs more retail. Needs less slabs. For sure. But it's a well designed building and stonewall is never and was never going to be some urban paradise for walkers. Stonewall is too large of a street and the highway ramps kill it. 

Once it's built out from 277 to the stadium and Brooklyn village is done I do think the stretch will be incredibly friendly for pedestrians. the street needs work for the buildings to follow suit. Given what we have I think this project will compliment the long term plans rather than take away. Lincoln Harris and BV will provide a TON of retail to the corridor and this will be stop along the way. Not a destination 

[CLT704]

Love the design of the actual skyscraper part! Any idea how tall this could be? 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, CLT704 said:

Love the design of the actual skyscraper part! Any idea how tall this could be? 

I'd guess 255' 

[CLTProductions]

5 hours ago, tozmervo said:

Do you want me to design the building for them? For starters they could just not have a plaza and insert storefront instead. They could dramatically reduce the size of the ingress/egress from the parking decks - they need 8'-6" at most per lanes, two lanes, and the character of design can visually reduce the entrance in favor of pedestrians. They could show on-street parking along south boulevard. They could advocate to reduce the size of that POS intersection. They could actually step down with the slope of the site instead of really lazy flat slab design

While we're at it, we can also substantially reduce the 558 parking space count they're providing. It's barely 900 feet to Stonewall station, not to mention within easy walking/biking distance of practically every business type someone would need for day-to-day living. I can't believe we're still building parking decks that massive in Uptown

So after speaking with some folks let me hit these concerns.

Plaza is smaller than it looks, storefront is closer to the street. There will be an interior plaza space that will have more retail than reported and allow PEDs to do a 360 around the building and cut through the nice plaza instead of walk down Stonewall.

Where the parking deck is is the only place NCDOT and CDOT would approve. They proposed a side street and reconfiguring the Davidson/277 light and NCDOT was having none of that. NCDOT would prefer this project not exist let alone grant any ROW access. They tried to reconfigure the Caldwell/Stonewall intersection, but again the transportation agencies really stopped this dead in its tracks.

There will be a dedicated left turn lane to go IN to the project (going west on Stonewall). The garage exit on stonewall will be right turn only. The garage on Caldwell is exit and right turn only

The slab is a bit annoying but it is not as dramatic as it appears in the rendering and Northwood Ravin will not allow it to be a blank wall. 

There is more Stonewall parking than shown in the rendering

There will be a rooftop wine bar

The deck size - I forgot to ask about. Oops. 

It's also to note they are going to use the same street scape materials as Crescent to keep cohesion between this project and Stonewall Station.

Is it all perfect? No, but this is a well designed project and the pedestrian level should be pretty sweet if it comes out as it has been explained and a site plan I saw comes to fruition. I think they are trying really hard to be more than "just a stop along the way" by adding retail (I think it will be more like 15k when all is said and done) along with the open air plaza space will plenty of tables and chairs. The real problem is the egress but it seems there's really not much they can do. Can only fight CDOT and NCDOT so much

Edited June 24, 2016 by Jayvee

[Niner National]

Thanks Jayvee. Your info is always appreciated.

[go_vertical]

42 minutes ago, Jayvee said:

So after speaking with some folks let me hit these concerns.

Plaza is smaller than it looks, storefront is closer to the street. There will be an interior plaza space that will have more retail than reported and allow PEDs to do a 360 around the building and cut through the nice plaza instead of walk down Stonewall.

....

The slab is a bit annoying but it is not as dramatic as it appears in the rendering and Northwood Ravin will not allow it to be a blank wall. 

 

This is what we call backpedaling kids. 

I'm calling bs on some of this. Not saying that they didn't say these things, but why would you release a highly detailed rendering with numbers and immediately say "well, disregard some of that"? I think they got some negative feedback about the pedestrian level and now they are saying there's more to it that they just forgot to tell everyone about?

And it's almost like they are saying, "we know we left Stonewall looking like s#!+ but you all can just walk around the building and further contribute to the lack of vibrancy on the sidewalks". Please.

I disagree with the sentiment that Stonewall will never be a pedestrian haven. I know it is wide, but we will soon have the Crescent lot done (hopefully they address the corner properly), there is the lot across Stonewall that can be developed, and the lots that are a part of the Brooklyn Village redevelopment. If the developers of all of those parcels give the street the same kind of love as we got here then yes, Stonewall is lost.

And in regards to the blank slab that will not be left blank, I hope we get another cascading waterfall because the one down at the presley is really drawing in the crowds.

[CLTProductions]

14 minutes ago, go_vertical said:

This is what we call backpedaling kids. 

I'm calling bs on some of this. Not saying that they didn't say these things, but why would you release a highly detailed rendering with numbers and immediately say "well, disregard some of that"? I think they got some negative feedback about the pedestrian level and now they are saying there's more to it that they just forgot to tell everyone about?

And it's almost like they are saying, "we know we left Stonewall looking like s#!+ but you all can just walk around the building and further contribute to the lack of vibrancy on the sidewalks". Please.

I disagree with the sentiment that Stonewall will never be a pedestrian haven. I know it is wide, but we will soon have the Crescent lot done (hopefully they address the corner properly), there is the lot across Stonewall that can be developed, and the lots that are a part of the Brooklyn Village redevelopment. If the developers of all of those parcels give the street the same kind of love as we got here then yes, Stonewall is lost.

And in regards to the blank slab that will not be left blank, I hope we get another cascading waterfall because the one down at the presley is really drawing in the crowds.

Nah, they have gotten positive feedback but they operate in a vacuum a lot of times. I can tell when I approached them with the pedestrian level concerns, they had no idea the concerns existed. These projects are ALWAYS evolving....you should see Tryon Place's initial renderings compared to the most recent. Vastly different.

Things like a green wall generally aren't put into renderings, renderings like this are put out to make glossy press releases, they aren't really meant for us nerds to deep dive into and nit pick. As much as I want to pick them apart for revisionist history, I just don't think it's there. I have seen some other renderings that I can't post and it addresses the interior of the project and adds context. It has nothing to do with "Stonewall sucks so come through here" but it is a matter of that there really just isn't too much they can do to Stonewall beyond having a garage and the 8k of retail they have. SO in order to make it a destination they are creating an interior that will house retail and an "urban garden" (don't think 1BAC). I actually think it'll be a nice place to escape 277 and Stonewall. This is a good project guys, we won't get burned like the Presley burned us (and me, man oh man did Proffitt blow smoke).

You can keep dreaming, but even Crescent isn't addressing making Stonewall a better urbanized haven. Tryon Place has the benefit of location as does Stonewall to an extent, but Stonewall Station does not address the fact Stonewall gets WAY too wide. The road needs a diet, but that's not on developers its on CDOT.

LOL about the one at the Presley, what a freaking joke that is. They don't even run it. But no they will likely do a green wall or a big mural. it's only a 3' high wall. It's not really that big.

 

Bottom line: it will come down to execution. Northwood Ravin has a pretty good track record (compared to Proffitt-Dixon) and are continuing to push further into urban, mixed-use focus design and projects. They are pumping a LOT of money into this project and plan to hang on to it rather than pump and dump like the Presley. The way they designed the parking (to go through the high-rise, into the open plaza towards the deck) is incredibly expensive and they could have just thrown the deck on the street but they didnt. 

Bottom bottom line: they just need to execute as it's been described and laid out in what I have seen, and this will be a great project for Stonewall.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Jayvee

[eastsider]

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, eastsider said:

Best damn discount hospital design in the south.

[Nick2]

I wish they could have thrown in a bright/neon color on one side of it or something. That would have helped tremendously. Better visibility be a good thing, no?

[caterpillar2]

8 hours ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

Best damn discount hospital design in the south.

 

Edited June 29, 2016 by caterpillar2
Decided not to be negative.

[ah59396]

I actually don't mind this thing.  It kinda matches the checkered flag theme, haha.

[tozmervo]

It has kind of an interesting massing vs color thing going on, but mostly it just looks like they forgot to finish building it.

[HopHead]

This hotel would've fit perfect out in the burbs somewhere IMO. Though, it's definitely not the worst looking building in uptown either. I'm pretty indifferent. 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

It has kind of an interesting massing vs color thing going on, but mostly it just looks like they forgot to finish building it.

In all fairness. Its not finished. And I don't mind the design. Still looks like a hospital to me. I just see what smaller markets are getting, and then look at what we get... And it pisses me off a little. Check out Greenvilles new Embassy Suites, complete with 7 floors of condos. 

[deleted]

Based on location (near emerging Stonewall, adjacent to CC), total missed opportunity. ..

[CLTProductions]

13 minutes ago, JBS said:

Based on location (near emerging Stonewall, adjacent to CC), total missed opportunity. ..

Eh the building itself is decent infill but the ground floor is solid. Patios and restaurants on Brevard and a MASSIVE and epic bar and patio at Caldwell & MLK. Pretty good to me

Edited June 29, 2016 by Jayvee

[nonillogical]

I'll wait to see on the street level treatment, and it could take on a new life once there is activity and signage, but that dark grey/black material chosen for the base is the opposite of inviting. 

[caterpillar2]

2 hours ago, ah59396 said:

I actually don't mind this thing.  It kinda matches the checkered flag theme, haha.

And, they (Embassy Suites) offer a free happy hour (two hours) for guests. It might be worth tolerating  minor  aesthetic disappointments for guests for that reason. 

Edited June 29, 2016 by caterpillar2

[deleted]

38 minutes ago, Jayvee said:

Eh the building itself is decent infill but the ground floor is solid. Patios and restaurants on Brevard and a MASSIVE and epic bar and patio at Caldwell & MLK. Pretty good to me

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.  It's a bland suburban style building in a high-potential location.  I hate this thing.

The good news is that it's next door to the old AT&T building...they look like they could be in an office park together.