Brooklyn Village Redevelopment in 2nd Ward

[AP3]

Whatever they do, I just hope the trees are preserved...

[videtur quam contuor]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

I would like a quick poll:

When is the last time you've actually walked through Marshall Park? Not drive down 3rd or McDowell... walked, strolled, or biked through it.

That "natural looking body of water " you are talking about is disgusting.  The park if it were to stay, needs a serious remodel and better water treatment.

18 months ago

Neighbor moved here from Madison, Wisconsin, home of beautiful blue lakes. His new company sent him some Chamber of Commerce beauty shots and pamphlets about Charlotte. One photo was from top of Cameron Brown building at 301 McDowell, his new office work location, with view across Marshall Park. He was pleased and excited that there was  an apparent lake in his new hometown. When he arrived at his first workday he looked from the window and the "lake" had been drained for cleaning and it was a mud hole with abandoned shoes, bottles and general litter and detritus from end to end. He ghosted his new lover Charlotte and moved to Winston Salem 18 months later.

[Scribe]

There are ways to move mature trees... the video below comes to mind. (the trees at Marshall Park are a bit bigger...)

 

Edited September 7, 2017 by Scribe

[go_vertical]

I guess that is where we disagree. I don't think it need a serious remodel. Maybe another way to put it is that I think it has "good bones". Bring it back to life with new plantings, repaved or slightly reconfigured paths, better irrigation so the lawn can be healthier, etc. I would be quite pissed if those trees were removed. Yes , the water could be cleaner, but that alone doesn't require a complete gut job. Mark my words, when this is redone all we will have is another first ward park.

[Scribe]

1 minute ago, go_vertical said:

Yes , the water could be cleaner, but that alone doesn't require a complete gut job.

It is not just the water, if you walk through the lawn, there is a bunch of small trash (not bulky - think bottle caps etc)

TBH the 60's sterile concrete look is a huge downer!

[go_vertical]

4 minutes ago, Scribe said:

It is not just the water, if you walk through the lawn, there is a bunch of small trash (not bulky - think bottle caps etc)

TBH the 60's sterile concrete look is a huge downer!

Again, those are not that difficult of fixes. And I'm pretty sure bottle caps and other little pieces of trash dont require the removal of 50 year old trees and what could be a much better looking water feature with a relatively small amount of cash and some tlc. All of this is like saying, "the wood framing on that old building's window is a little rotten, let's raze it and put up a five story post modern apartment building with a gym on the first floor". SMH

[15895]

I haven't been to Marshall Park in ages.... But I absolutely want it to stay. I don't go to the park because there's no reason to go over there. I guess if I ever need to meet someone in prison, I'll stop by but... It's an asset waiting to be taken advantage of! I would love the park to be renovated and some development or somthing to give me a reason to venture down there other than protesting for Trans and Dreamers rights.

[Scribe]

@go_vertical you can keep shaking your head all you want.

I never said that it being dirty is a reason for it to get razed.

I just find it a little irritating that all the newfound lovers and supporters of Marshall Park have not been to Marshall Park in ages. So you love the idea of Marshall Park, good for you. What have you done to make the existing park better? Jack $h!t! So, keep on shaking your head.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Scribe

[15895]

8 minutes ago, Scribe said:

@go_vertical you can keep shaking your head all you want.

I never said that it being dirty is a reason for it to get razed.

I just find it a little irritating that all the newfound lovers and supporters of Marshall Park have not been to Marshall Park in ages. So you love the idea of Marshall Park, good for you. What have you done to make the existing park better? Jack $h!t! So, keep on shaking your head.

 

What is any of us supposed to do to make Marshall Park better? Walk all the way down there to see it? As opposed to 1st, 4th, Green and Romare park all of which are near some points of interest or light rail or grocery stores and civilization. 

 

unacceptable loss of a gem that has potential to be awesome Af.  its underutilized because of its surroundings. 

[CharlotteWkndBuzz]

I've gone to Marshall Park every year for about 3 or 4 years for Charlotte's Komen walk.  However, they are moving it closer to Romare this year I believe.  I can't seem to find the plans for BV, but I remember it being mixed-used for the most part.  I envision shops, restaurants, residential above that.  Maybe finally a real ice cream shop uptown (cough cough Kilwins).  And then having something like a Symphony at the Park type series every so often.  Like AirNost said, it has the potential to be awesome AF lol. 

[go_vertical]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

@go_vertical you can keep shaking your head all you want.

I never said that it being dirty is a reason for it to get razed.

I just find it a little irritating that all the newfound lovers and supporters of Marshall Park have not been to Marshall Park in ages. So you love the idea of Marshall Park, good for you. What have you done to make the existing park better? Jack $h!t! So, keep on shaking your head.

Dude, I'm just having a conversation. If you are getting that irritated over a forum conversation about a city park then I think a life evaluation is in order. Honestly, I don't understand why so many people act like their mom was slapped when someone has a differing opinion.

First off I'm not a newfound lover of the park. I've always LIKED it. Yes, it needs some love but all I've been saying is that I don't think money should be needlessly spent to irreversibly take away park space. That is all I've been trying to get across without degrading into unnessary aggression.

To answer your question though, no, I haven't been there in a while for the exact same reasons others have mentioned here. Now, if decent development butted up against the park then Marshall would absolutely be my favorite. I like Bearden but in my opinion First Ward Park won't look too terribly different once the greenery fills in. I'm simply saying Marshall is something different, it's already there, and it should be left intact and not downsized.

I bet if instead of the government buildings there were offices lined with retail, brownstones or townhomes along the other side, and a few civic buildings scattered about then there would be a wellspring of dissent for these plans.

We're just talking here. Relax man.

[Scribe]

@AirNostrumMAD and @go_vertical

So, when something comes along - like BV - that would improve the whole ward, all you have to offer is "make sure we do not change the park" that no-one here goes to - and the ones that do go, do it about once a year - max.

What change or proposal have you made that would actually improve that area?  All I've heard so far is more of the same. (and shaking your head at people that actually try to make positive changes in the city).

Oh, and I will take a 2.5 acre park that is used daily over a 5 acre park that is used 2/365 days of the year!

Edited September 7, 2017 by Scribe

[go_vertical]

[elrodvt]

CLT already stinks for park space don't make it worse. I guess I'm allowed to make that comment since I walk over there almost every week?

[15895]

2 hours ago, Scribe said:

@AirNostrumMAD and @go_vertical

So, when something comes along - like BV - that would improve the whole ward, all you have to offer is "make sure we do not change the park" that no-one here goes to - and the ones that do go, do it about once a year - max.

What change or proposal have you made that would actually improve that area?  All I've heard so far is more of the same. (and shaking your head at people that actually try to make positive changes in the city).

Oh, and I will take a 2.5 acre park that is used daily over a 5 acre park that is used 2/365 days of the year!

I would say incorporate it in your development, and leverage it to your advantage.  Build more dense developments. Make store fronts fronting the park. Renovate it. 

 

I'm 25, born here in 1992 at Presbyterian. Marshal Park pre-dates me, I believe. I'm sorry Brooklyn Village was torn down for urban renewal, but I too don't want one of the most iconic landmark in Charlotte erased all so a developer can earn a few more dollars instead of building more dense as I'm sure those in Brooklyn didn't want their neighborhood destroyed. 

Lets be real here. Nothing built here will be earth shattering by any means. Levine land and North Tryon vision plans should be reminders that massive redevelopments of lots of acres under control of on group don't come together. 

Edited September 7, 2017 by AirNostrumMAD

[Popsickle]

Fig it. Throw the park in with the rest of the incentives for Amazon and let them do something with it. They would actually do something pretty cool with it. 

Edited September 7, 2017 by Popsickle

[caterpillar2]

1 hour ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I would say incorporate it in your development, and leverage it to your advantage.  Build more dense developments. Make store fronts fronting the park. Renovate it. 

 

I'm 25, born here in 1992 at Presbyterian. Marshal Park pre-dates me, I believe. I'm sorry Brooklyn Village was torn down for urban renewal, but I too don't want one of the most iconic landmark in Charlotte erased all so a developer can earn a few more dollars instead of building more dense as I'm sure those in Brooklyn didn't want their neighborhood destroyed. 

Lets be real here. Nothing built here will be earth shattering by any means. Levine land and North Tryon vision plans should be reminders that massive redevelopments of lots of acres under control of on group don't come together. 

Brooklyn Village was a huge slum that was dangerous, full of crime, and if your car were to break down there after sunset and you didn't belong there. It was curtains. The best thing that happened in those days was urban renewal. Earle Village was another blessing. People in the area wanted it . It wasn't anybody's fault that it was destroyed but those that destroyed the place.  Brooklyn wanted their neighborhood rebuilt. I know, I was around then.  Any old cop or resident will agree.  Things weren't as many seem to think it was.  Crime was a nightmare. Just imagine as much crime in those days as now with only a quarter of the population.  I believe you are to young to understand that Charlotte only had a population of around 150K back in those days and "density" wasn't a thing. It was an era when people wanted yards and space, etc. The last thing they wanted were jam packed tenement apartments that existed in places like Baltimore, etc.  Times have changed. Density "is" a thing now. And, I like it myself.  It is seriously much better these days. Brooklyn wasn't a garden of eden. 

Edited September 7, 2017 by caterpillar2

[videtur quam contuor]

I just had a conversation with my wife about Brooklyn. She moved to Charlotte when in 1955 as a child. Shopping was done downtown. She recalls clearly going through Brooklyn to reach downtown and had no fear or sense of danger about the experience. Her mother drove her and her younger sister. In the mid 1960's. She recalls being with a high school classmate and coming back from downtown in the classmate's car and made a wrong turn. The classmate thought that 3rd street continued to Providence but it ended in Broooklyn and they felt embarrassed but not endangered. I have just had this conversation with her as I have been typing. Take it for what it is worth.

Edited September 8, 2017 by tarhoosier

[Guest]

Brooklyn Village was a huge slum that was dangerous, full of crime, and if your car were to break down there after sunset and you didn't belong there. It was curtains. The best thing that happened in those days was urban renewal. Earle Village was another blessing. People in the area wanted it . It wasn't anybody's fault that it was destroyed but those that destroyed the place.  Brooklyn wanted their neighborhood rebuilt. I know, I was around then.  Any old cop or resident will agree.  Things weren't as many seem to think it was.  Crime was a nightmare. Just imagine as much crime in those days as now with only a quarter of the population.  I believe you are to young to understand that Charlotte only had a population of around 150K back in those days and "density" wasn't a thing. It was an era when people wanted yards and space, etc. The last thing they wanted were jam packed tenement apartments that existed in places like Baltimore, etc.  Times have changed. Density "is" a thing now. And, I like it myself.  It is seriously much better these days. Brooklyn wasn't a garden of eden. 

I think you are remembering earl village in the 80s and early 90s. Per my parents and grandmother (RIP) in a conversation we had nearly a decade Live to revel in just another twilight. Life may sink and disappear along with the sunset never to rise again ago when this first started, it was no slum, it wasn't the best looking place in the world, but brooklynites were just normal people, experiencing systematic racism. If your car broke down in Brooklyn, someone would have helped you. When you grow up looking at something through "colored shades" it can look different than it was.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Brooklyn Village was a huge slum that was dangerous, full of crime, and if your car were to break down there after sunset and you didn't belong there. It was curtains. The best thing that happened in those days was urban renewal. Earle Village was another blessing. People in the area wanted it . It wasn't anybody's fault that it was destroyed but those that destroyed the place.  Brooklyn wanted their neighborhood rebuilt. I know, I was around then.  Any old cop or resident will agree.  Things weren't as many seem to think it was.  Crime was a nightmare. Just imagine as much crime in those days as now with only a quarter of the population.  I believe you are to young to understand that Charlotte only had a population of around 150K back in those days and "density" wasn't a thing. It was an era when people wanted yards and space, etc. The last thing they wanted were jam packed tenement apartments that existed in places like Baltimore, etc.  Times have changed. Density "is" a thing now. And, I like it myself.  It is seriously much better these days. Brooklyn wasn't a garden of eden. 

I think you are remembering earl village in the 80s and early 90s. Per my parents and grandmother (RIP) in a conversation we had nearly a decade ago when this first started, it was no slum, it wasn't the best looking place in the world, but brooklynites were just normal people, experiencing systematic racism. If your car broke down in Brooklyn, someone would have helped you. When you grow up looking at something through "colored shades" it can look different than it was.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[caterpillar2]

I was overseas in the 80s and most of the 90s so I am not remembering those years in regards to Earl Village. I was referring to the late 60s and 70s when crime there was rampant. Sure there were some great people there, but there were tons of criminals too. 

"Colored shades,"  LOL.  It is called reality and actually being around. 

[jednc]

15 hours ago, elrodvt said:

CLT already stinks for park space don't make it worse. I guess I'm allowed to make that comment since I walk over there almost every week?

Yes. But only because you walk over there almost weekly. If you miss a week, please come back and remove your comment as you will have lost the right to have an opinion that differs from Scrib.

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, jednc said:

Yes. But only because you walk over there almost weekly. If you miss a week, please come back and remove your comment as you will have lost the right to have an opinion that differs from Scrib.

Not sure what you're implying, never tried to say people shouldn't voice their opinions.

As for people complaining about park space, I assume you mean within 277 + freedom park. Maybe it is time to step out of the small loop? There are beautiful parks out there with some pretty amazing trails and facilities.

17 hours ago, elrodvt said:

CLT already stinks for park space don't make it worse

Maybe this PDF could be a good starting point. https://www.mecknc.gov/ParkandRec/Documents/brochure files/prk brochure parks.pdf

[kermit]

14 minutes ago, Scribe said:

As for people complaining about park space, I assume you mean within 277 + freedom park. Maybe it is time to step out of the small loop? There are beautiful parks out there with some pretty amazing trails and facilities.

I don't think anyone has said that there are not any nice parks in the County. Rather I think most people are aware that Mecklenburg ranks near the bottom of the league tables for park space per capita and accessibility of parks.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article21461592.html

[Scribe]

Yes, that is a good starting point for discussion.

Problem is it favors more smaller parks and dense cities.

Overall Charlotte is ranked 97th/100 vs.  Seattle which is ranked 11th/100...

For example Charlotte gets 20 (max) vs  Seattle gets 4 on park size.

SIX times the area... but Charlotte has TWICE the park acreage of Seattle... so the stat of within 10 minute walk is always going to be low and couple that with Charlotte having huge nature preserves like Ready Creek and Latta Plantation that are massive and act as attractions for the entire city not just the surrounding neighborhoods this score is not a great representation for Charlotte...

I also gotta say we do well with the little money we spend!

Spending -- nevermind, I need more coffee:

• Seattle spends 669,850x$279.30 = 187089105.00 that is 187 MILLION dollars
• Charlotte spends 862,032x$44.80 = 38619033.60 that is 38 MILLION dollars
• Charlotte spends 1/5th of what Seattle spends but maintains TWICE as much acreage...

Now for Seattle:

 

As for Charlotte, we are serving everyone pretty equally. Just need more of it.

 

All in all, what I've learned is that, all of you who are beotching about the reduced size of Marshall park, should instead demand that every acre lost should be opened somewhere else as a separate park in the city so that it brings up our park score and makes @kermit happy

What these stats confirm - yet again - is that the devil is in the details and you can make the details confess anything you want, with enough creativity.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Scribe

[HighRiseHillbilly]

I like Marshall Park. I like the trees, the big, bulky concrete, the little rises & enclaves it creates, and the winding layout. I even like the water, although it does need a good cleaning. 

As others have said, it's not really near anything, so it doesn't get used much. I have used it plenty of times recently, though. I have been to plan, to protest, to photograph, to film, and just to enjoy its quiet, unique atmosphere.

Where else can you point to in the city that so much has happened in the name of social change? Also, if you google "Marshall Park Wedding Photos". There is some beautiful evidence that other people know it's there and appreciate it. It's a beautiful, special place and I think it needs to stay.