Brooklyn Village Redevelopment in 2nd Ward

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

12 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

As we know from NY's experience, Peebles is looking to make a name for himself with iconic projects.  I look forward to this.

Did Don Peebles write this?

[SydneyCarton]

19 hours ago, RANYC said:

What's the "it" you're so passionate about?

Are we talking the original plans?  1200 residential units, office building, hotel, and retail?

Just so everyone knows, the "it" can be seen under construction in tons of different places all around center-city Charlotte.

I'd like to see BV look like the Upper East Side of Manhattan.  That's my passion.  

 

 

 

 

   

    

Edited December 17, 2021 by SydneyCarton

[CTiger]

^ lol

This is Charlotte.  Its going to be a handful of stick build luxury apartments and all the retail will be 5/3 Bank branches with drive-throughs.

[atlrvr]

I'll just say for the most part, the people with the equivalent wealth in modern Charlotte as those early 1900's NYC families who lived in the UES don't want to live in Uptown Charlotte.  They live in Eastover and Foxcroft if they live in the city, but many live 20 miles from the city (lakefront or more rural properties).

The improvements in transportation, as well as modern technology means the wealthy aren't bound to living in an urban environment.  

Therefore, I think it's unrealistic to expect large urban neighborhoods built to high standards that only the wealthiest people can afford (i.e. limestone exteriors).

NY is an outlier, because of the massive amount of "world-class" cultural amenities gives social opportunities (and therefore the ability to generate more wealth through those social networks). 

For someone in Charlotte with that type of wealth, they are more likely to own a NYC apartment to visit to take advantage of those amenities and social network, and have a luxurious suburban single-family home in Charlotte.

I personally don't see this changing, unless Charlotte first develops museums and performing arts venues that rival those of NY, SF, and LA, etc....otherwise there is no "benefit" to a $100mm-aire living in Uptown Charlotte and developing their social life around those amenties.

*** yes....there are plenty of people that value urban living just as a preferred lifestyle, but typically those people have self-selected out of Charlotte given how mobile our society is.

 

[RANYC]

8 minutes ago, atlrvr said:

I'll just say for the most part, the people with the equivalent wealth in modern Charlotte as those early 1900's NYC families who lived in the UES don't want to live in Uptown Charlotte.  They live in Eastover and Foxcroft if they live in the city, but many live 20 miles from the city (lakefront or more rural properties).

The improvements in transportation, as well as modern technology means the wealthy aren't bound to living in an urban environment.  

Therefore, I think it's unrealistic to expect large urban neighborhoods built to high standards that only the wealthiest people can afford (i.e. limestone exteriors).

NY is an outlier, because of the massive amount of "world-class" cultural amenities gives social opportunities (and therefore the ability to generate more wealth through those social networks). 

For someone in Charlotte with that type of wealth, they are more likely to own a NYC apartment to visit to take advantage of those amenities and social network, and have a luxurious suburban single-family home in Charlotte.

I personally don't see this changing, unless Charlotte first develops museums and performing arts venues that rival those of NY, SF, and LA, etc....otherwise there is no "benefit" to a $100mm-aire living in Uptown Charlotte and developing their social life around those amenties.

*** yes....there are plenty of people that value urban living just as a preferred lifestyle, but typically those people have self-selected out of Charlotte given how mobile our society is.

 

I agree, NYC is one-of-a-kind and while I love the pictures in Sydney Carlton's post, I don't see them as representing any sort of roadmap for Charlotte in our lifetimes.

Having said that, I wonder if there could be a healthy market for the wealthiest Charlotteans in Uptown.  I'm seeing mid-rise and high-rise luxury just outside of center city.  Seemingly, there are big spenders locally who are fine with vertical living and density.  They just don't appear to be driving luxury "OWNERSHIP" developments in Uptown, of late.  Also, unlike in Eastover, at least in Uptown you're within walking distance of cultural amenities - certainly not NYC or London or Paris or Berlin amenities - but rich with amenities relative to Eastover.

Is there anything Uptown could do to be more alluring to the developers of say, The Regent at Eastover?  Is that something we even want or would that be healthy for Uptown? 

[SydneyCarton]

I think that those old buildings could be recreated.  If they were built around a central square and had very high-end shops at the base, it would look amazing.

[videtur quam contuor]

Of note: Famous and affluent individuals and some families in NYC lived in HOTELS. Joe DiMaggio, Babe Ruth and many others, sports stars, writers and noted individuals preferred long term accommodation at a hotel for the security and privacy. The Ansonia was a popular one and built to allow residents to stay for as long as they wanted. There were others. The concept of "hotel" was broader then than now. Taking meals in the dining room or brought to your room, maintaining space for your belongings while gone for extended periods, these were the conveniences of hotel from that time.  I could see someone renting the penthouse at the Dunhill long term as a home. Same for a suite in  Ivey's. BofA executives could do this and make a real contribution to the city. Maybe they do so at the Ritz.

[atlrvr]

^^^ the counterpoint to this is the concept of "luxury apartments" didn't exist back then.  Apartments were for those that couldn't afford to buy.  Hotels were for those with expected transiency.

[TheRealClayton]

38 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I think that those old buildings could be recreated.  If they were built around a central square and had very high-end shops at the base, it would look amazing.

They just simply could not, they would be enormously expensive to recreate wish there only being a hand full of craftspeople in the United States that could match it. These would be $10-18M townhouse properties in Charlotte, which is obviously completely unheard of. The economics of what you propose throughout this thread is impossible in Charlotte.

[go_vertical]

It's interesting that in one hand there are near constant complaints that uptown is dead after business hours, nobody wants to spend time there, is soulless, is cold and uninviting, and unsafe yet in the other hand there is supposedly a market for the wealthiest of Charlotte residents and if only the luxury digs were built they would come marching in with checks in hand. It's one or the other. It cannot be both. 

Edited December 17, 2021 by go_vertical

[Blue_Devil]

It's interesting that in one hand there are near constant complaints that uptown is dead after business hours, nobody wants to spend time there, is soulless, is cold and uninviting, and unsafe yet in the other hand there is supposedly a market for the wealthiest of Charlotte residents and if only the luxury digs were built they would come marching in with checks in hand. It's one or the other. It cannot be both. 

In all honesty, that is all moving to SouthEnd. If luxury living is to grow in Uptown it’s gonna have to happen slowly, creating an organic food and retail scene around it, like what happened in SouthEnd.


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[RANYC]

46 minutes ago, go_vertical said:

It's interesting that in one hand there are near constant complaints that uptown is dead after business hours, nobody wants to spend time there, is soulless, is cold and uninviting, and unsafe yet in the other hand there is supposedly a market for the wealthiest of Charlotte residents and if only the luxury digs were built they would come marching in with checks in hand. It's one or the other. It cannot be both. 

I’ve been pretty favorable on uptown.  I think it’s doing quite well versus CBDs in other sunbelt cities.  It’s relatively clean and almost garden-like in parts.  Yes, it could be better or improved, and yes I’d like to see underutilized lots filled in and certain stretches redesigned for greater pedestrian orientation, but it’s not some soulless or cold wasteland, at least IMO.  
There are some on here who lament that our uptown is not more of a center of revelry or a party district, drawing in tourists for drunken bacchanals, but I’m not in that camp and not judging our downtown against that score.

[Madison Parkitect]

2 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

I think that those old buildings could be recreated.  If they were built around a central square and had very high-end shops at the base, it would look amazing.

Nobody is building those anywhere in the world anymore. Literally not in any city anywhere in the world.

[SydneyCarton]

24 minutes ago, Madison Parkitect said:

Nobody is building those anywhere in the world anymore. Literally not in any city anywhere in the world.

They're building old-style, limestone towers with extensive details all over in NY, and they're selling like wildfire at $5k/sf.

 

 

Here's another

 

 

And other.  I could post scores of them.  They can't build these $50m condos fast enough.

Edited December 17, 2021 by SydneyCarton

[TheRealClayton]

8 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

They're building old-style, limestone towers with extensive details all over in NY, and they're selling like wildfire at $5k/sf.

 

But to whom Sydney? People with local jobs that give back to their neighborhood economy? Or to a shell company in Russia, Saudi Arabia, China, South Africa, Germany, Brazil or India that is parking money in NYC. 

[Rufus]

8 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

they're selling like wildfire at $5k/sf.

 

 

THIS -- this is not feasible here in Charlotte. Not even getting into the massive real estate inflation bubble in NYC (trust me, it's going to come crashing down sooner than later), Charlotte, a city that is 1/10th the size of NYC cannot justify NYC prices. It makes no sense. North Carolina has like 6 billionaires, split between the Triangle and Charlotte. They are not buying up $5ksft homes, let alone hi-rise condos. And the millionaires in the city? Not doing it either. And the luxury retail? It took almost 20 years just to get Gucci. 

Peebles being backed by Witkoff is a NYC thing. It's gonna happen here. What has Witkoff done outside of luxury residential in NYC? Nothing. And clearly, BV is not a success story at the moment, so there is little faith Peebles can get anything close to 1/10th what he is proposing in NYC. 

We get it. You have high hopes and aspirations for Charlotte. In some ways, you glorify the luxury market, and why wouldn't you? It's always the aspirational items that get our attention. But we are a city and a nation ravaged by inflation, a massive homelessness crisis, and other things, that just make these aspirations meaningless. City Leaders and Civic Leaders are no longer in the business of aspirations. It's bad optics. Bad optics do not bode well for elections. And developers? Look at Daniel Levine and his wasteland worth millions. It's clear they don't need to build as long as it's making money somehow. 

I'm not telling you to stop dreaming. But I am telling you be grounded in reality. Let's enjoy the fact that for a split second in the history of this country, Charlotte is punching above its weight, and is finally recognizing what being an urban center means. 

[SydneyCarton]

8 minutes ago, TheRealClayton said:

But to whom Sydney? People with local jobs that give back to their neighborhood economy? Or to a shell company in Russia, Saudi Arabia, China, South Africa, Germany, Brazil or India that is parking money in NYC. 

To the 35,000 households in NYC who have more $25m in assets.  Also, rich people from all over the world want properties in NY, just as they do in London, Paris, Miami, etc. 

More to the point, buildings like that can be built in Charlotte, and it might be even more feasible than it is in NY due to the massively lower land costs.

Edited December 17, 2021 by SydneyCarton

[Madison Parkitect]

25 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

They're building old-style, limestone towers with extensive details all over in NY, and they're selling like wildfire at $5k/sf.

Those are almost definitely using all precast panels. Maybe not even real limestone. Not the same kind of building at all, and there's a pretty clear visual difference between those old buildings made of real stone with 2-foot-thick solid walls and these new ones made of stick or metal studs with cast stone panels clipped on.

Edited December 17, 2021 by Madison Parkitect

[TheRealClayton]

9 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

To the 35,000 households in NYC who have more $25m in assets.  Also, rich people from all over the world want properties in NY, just as they do in London, Paris, Miami, etc. 

More to the point, buildings like that can be built in Charlotte, and it might be even more feasible than it is in NY due to the massively lower land costs.

you just aren't correct, not even a little bit.

[SydneyCarton]

1 minute ago, TheRealClayton said:

you just aren't correct, not even a little bit.

Rick, the facts are what they are.  You could ignore everything that I posted if it makes you happy.  

Anyway, while you know nothing about NY, your knowledge of Charlotte development is impressive.  I look forward to hearing more about that topic.

[go_vertical]

Haha..... Rick. I keep laughing at that. 

[Norm2]

This thread is massively off topic, and this whole "You know nothing, John Snow" situation is getting old. @TheRealClayton knows his ish better than almost anyone on these forums.

[TheRealClayton]

12 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Rick, the facts are what they are.  You could ignore everything that I posted if it makes you happy.  

Anyway, while you know nothing about NY, your knowledge of Charlotte development is impressive.  I look forward to hearing more about that topic.

And as someone who has been paid to write about Development in NYC, just like I have in Charlotte, I know exactly what I'm talking about. What I have said is very well documented. Your thought that that Charlotte could sustain the kind of development you are suggesting has also been proven wrong time and time again by the fact that high priced speculative urban homes have failed to happen almost every single time they've been attempted. 

As far as NYC goes, here is EIGHT different reputable sources: 

https://www.nytimes.com/news-event/shell-company-towers-of-secrecy-real-estate

https://theweek.com/articles/736313/how-foreign-investors-launder-money-new-york-real-estate

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/how-new-york-real-estate-became-dumping-ground-worlds-dirty-money/

https://slate.com/business/2014/07/new-york-city-real-estate-launder-money-without-swiss-banks.html

https://eurasianet.org/new-york-law-will-shine-light-on-shadowy-real-estate-deals

https://commercialobserver.com/2021/02/llcs-real-estate-law-shell-companies/

https://www.globalwitness.org/en/campaigns/corruption-and-money-laundering/anonymous-companies-used-to-launder-money-in-us-real-estate/

https://nymag.com/news/features/foreigners-hiding-money-new-york-real-estate-2014-6/

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by TheRealClayton

[HopHead]

8 minutes ago, TheRealClayton said:

And as someone who has been paid to write about Development in NYC, just like I have in Charlotte, I know exactly what I'm talking about. What I have said is very well documented. Your thought that that Charlotte could sustain the kind of development you are suggesting has also been proven wrong time and time again by the fact that high priced speculative urban homes have failed to happen almost every single time they've been attempted. 

As far as NYC goes, here is EIGHT different reputable sources: 

https://www.nytimes.com/news-event/shell-company-towers-of-secrecy-real-estate

https://theweek.com/articles/736313/how-foreign-investors-launder-money-new-york-real-estate

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/how-new-york-real-estate-became-dumping-ground-worlds-dirty-money/

https://slate.com/business/2014/07/new-york-city-real-estate-launder-money-without-swiss-banks.html

https://eurasianet.org/new-york-law-will-shine-light-on-shadowy-real-estate-deals

https://commercialobserver.com/2021/02/llcs-real-estate-law-shell-companies/

https://www.globalwitness.org/en/campaigns/corruption-and-money-laundering/anonymous-companies-used-to-launder-money-in-us-real-estate/

https://nymag.com/news/features/foreigners-hiding-money-new-york-real-estate-2014-6/

 

Mic drop...

[TheRealClayton]

To bring this all back on topic, and to apologize to @SydneyCartonfor so diligently trying to burst his bubble, I just wanted to say that we all want to see something high quality that brings an "it" factor back to uptown. Super high end is just not what we need. If you walk past those incredible homes in the upper east side, they are as devoid of pedestrian activity (beyond gawkers) as 1st ward's parking lots. We need to create communities that will encourage people to walk, bike, and ride transit, not multimillion dollar vertical fortresses of wealth. This happens by investing in communities with a healthy mix of market rate, below market rate, and above market rate housing, places for people to work, as well as places to enjoy themselves. We are so desperately behind many peer cities in urbanity and for us to have the opportunity to take a suburban oriented district, and make it part of the city, is something we should celebrate. Its also something we need to loudly advocate for.