Brooklyn Village Redevelopment in 2nd Ward

[j-man]

10 hours ago, nicholas said:

I mean...who really lives in 2nd Ward currently?  (Other than at the apartments between Stonewall and 277?)

Literally, there is a reason people don't live in 2nd ward currently........thats my whole point. 

[TheRealClayton]

1 hour ago, j-man said:

Literally, there is a reason people don't live in 2nd ward currently........thats my whole point. 

Seems to me 2nd ward might be one of the more residentially dense areas in Charlotte

The Francis: 459 Units
Uptown 550: 421 Units
Savoy: 302 Units
Radcliffe: 57 Units
Skye Condos: 67 Units
The Madison: 26 Units
The Presley: 230 Units

Hotels:
Embassy Suites
Hilton
Sheraton
Le Meridien 
Fairfield Inn
AC Hotel
Hyatt Place
Westin
JW Marriott 
Marriott Courtyard
Omni Charlotte


Grocery Store: Uptown's only full service grocery, Whole Foods

Oh and Charlotte's central prison ;-)

Edited December 22, 2021 by TheRealClayton

[atlrvr]

2nd ward (in 2010) was so bad it was the only place in all over Mecklenburg County that doesn't even has an official Census Tract.  It used to be Census Tract 2.....it is now referred to as 9803.  Population declined from 2 people to 0.....as far as gentrification....in % terms...100% displacement seems severe...in absolute terms....2 people may be on the lower end of things in Meck Co.

https://charlottenc.gov/planning/ResearchandGIS/Pages/Census2010.aspx

I'm having trouble finding the exact street boundaries.  Everything listed by TRC is new since 2010 except The Radcliffe, and not positive on Madison...but does anyone really live there?  

[nicholas]

7 hours ago, atlrvr said:

2nd ward (in 2010) was so bad it was the only place in all over Mecklenburg County that doesn't even has an official Census Tract.  It used to be Census Tract 2.....it is now referred to as 9803.  Population declined from 2 people to 0.....as far as gentrification....in % terms...100% displacement seems severe...in absolute terms....2 people may be on the lower end of things in Meck Co.

https://charlottenc.gov/planning/ResearchandGIS/Pages/Census2010.aspx

I'm having trouble finding the exact street boundaries.  Everything listed by TRC is new since 2010 except The Radcliffe, and not positive on Madison...but does anyone really live there?  

I guess that's what I was trying to say in my last comment.  There are people on the very edge but not really "in" 2nd Ward, and the ones that do live at the edges are in pretty high-end residences.  The rest of it is literally almost entirely parking lots, hotels, and Mecklenburg County buildings, so not sure who exactly is being displaced...

[JRCLT]

I guess that's what I was trying to say in my last comment.  There are people on the very edge but not really "in" 2nd Ward, and the ones that do live at the edges are in pretty high-end residences.  The rest of it is literally almost entirely parking lots, hotels, and Mecklenburg County buildings, so not sure who exactly is being displaced...

No one lol.

[j-man]

12 hours ago, JeanClt said:

No one lol.

So an entire thriving Black neighborhood within a town just suddenly lost all of its population……ok if y’all say so.

1 minute ago, j-man said:

So an entire thriving Black neighborhood within a town just suddenly lost all of its population……ok if y’all say so.

 

[go_vertical]

Nobody is denying that happened.  The point people are making is that CURRENTLY second ward is sparcely populated.  The atrocities you are referencing happened SIXTY years ago. 

[JRCLT]

 
http://content.invisioncic.com/x329420/monthly_2021_12/D982621C-76C0-4594-9D01-FC10A5E8B788.thumb.jpeg.118822628aca6a2bfb4d45d84d9d3f15.jpeg

Specifically with this project, No. Do not twist my words here, they were displaced by “urban renewal” and now we have a hideous, disease-causing, waste-of-space, redundant, car-centric-funnel of concrete in place of what was a thriving neighborhood. Brooklyn Village Redevelopment today isn’t displacing anyone. It is on County owned land.

[j-man]

3 hours ago, go_vertical said:

Nobody is denying that happened.  The point people are making is that CURRENTLY second ward is sparcely populated.  The atrocities you are referencing happened SIXTY years ago. 

When was that point denied...

[Blue_Devil]

1 hour ago, j-man said:

When was that point denied...

Calling it gentrification at this point it a stretch. What happened was an atrocity, but it is no longer gentrification.  

[j-man]

13 minutes ago, Blue_Devil said:

Calling it gentrification at this point it a stretch. What happened was an atrocity, but it is no longer gentrification.  

Its no longer gentrification because all of the people are gone. Those people who lived there against their own wishes simply because that's only where they were allowed to live are no longer there because of gentrification, so once that phase is complete of course you would call it something else now. 

[B Randy]

https://therealdeal.com/2021/12/23/new-york-state-halts-plans-for-hudson-yards-development-site/
 

[SydneyCarton]

1 hour ago, B Randy said:

https://therealdeal.com/2021/12/23/new-york-state-halts-plans-for-hudson-yards-development-site/
 

That's not due to lack of demand, as was suggested.   Nor is it due to Peebles' inability to get a project done in NY because, as noted,  Peebles was  the mere face of the  project.  Witkoff was the actual developer.  The local community board was outraged that a city -owned site would not include affordable housing.  A few  buildings north of this site, construction on another city-owned lot  is about to start on 680 and 650' towers with a common base that will include apartments, a hotel, and  a large affordable housing component.  Witkoff and Peebles said that they will re-submit when the city reissues the new RFP which will include an affordable housing requirement.  This was all driven by the new governor's re-election campaign because she was criticized that this project lacked affordable housing. 

Here's a rendering of the aforementioned 680'/650' "fraternal twin" towers  that are rising up the street.

 

In other NY news yesterday, plans for the new 1,575' tall office building/hotel next to Grand Central were fully approved yesterday.  The 1,401' One Vanderbilt on the other side of Grand Central is fully leased within a few months of its opening.  Blackstone is looking for 1m sf of new space, and it's apparently, one of the possible anchors.  Also, yesterday, Extell announced that its Fifth Avenue site that is now almost fully demolished with yield yet another 1,100' tower.

 

 

Construction has also started on three new 1,000' condos and on several other new office buildings including a 1,050' foot spec tower at 343 Madison, and, of course, the 1,425' JP Morgan Chase Tower is about 100' above street level now.  NYC is pretty much the only place in the world where a 700' tower would be razed and replaced with a 1,425' tower.  With respect to the condos, the NYC market remains unparalleled.  A recent sale at 220 Central Park South, a 950' condo that is basically sold out, puts the total sales at that one building at over $3B.  Only in NY.

https://therealdeal.com/2021/12/23/top-docs-condo-deal-tips-vornados-220-central-park-south-past-3b/

 

Here's the 1,050' spec tower at 343 Madison.

Edited December 24, 2021 by SydneyCarton

[SydneyCarton]

So basically, there's still nothing to suggest that Peebles, perhaps in conjunction with a local partner, can't build BV.  I think that it all depends on a strong local developer working with him.

[B Randy]

13 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

So basically, there's still nothing to suggest that Peebles, perhaps in conjunction with a local partner, can't build BV.  I think that it all depends on a strong local developer working with him.

Just reporting the news that the tower everyone was excited about further up in topic will, in fact, not be built.

not arguing w you re: NY high rise boom. Very close w RXR on multiple fronts. Exciting week for that one…

[SydneyCarton]

3 minutes ago, B Randy said:

Just reporting the news that the tower everyone was excited about further up in topic will, in fact, not be built.

not arguing w you re: NY high rise boom. Very close w RXR on multiple fronts. Excting week for that one…

I agree, but I expect that when Witkoff and Peebles resubmit in response to the new RFP, they will do so with basically the same building but perhaps condos and affordable housing will replace some of the hotel and office space.

More importantly, I hope that BV starts in 2022, as was reported. 

Edited December 24, 2021 by SydneyCarton

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, SydneyCarton said:

So basically, there's still nothing to suggest that Peebles, perhaps in conjunction with a local partner, can't build BV.  I think that it all depends on a strong local developer working with him.

From what I've read, the Brooklyn Redevelopment Agreement that BK Partners negotiated with the County says that construction must begin by February 2023.  Yet, Peebles is reported as telling a gathering this month that he expects to break ground in 16-18 months.  Such a ground-breaking would appear to be in violation of the agreement, and the county will need to decide whether to continue the deal with Peebles and BK Partners while suffering yet another delay, or to go with a different developer.  

Perhaps Peebles has his hands too full with these celestial ambitions in Manhattan.  Maybe BK Partners approaching the county for an extension gives the County the opportunity and pivot point to invite other developers into the redevelopment of Brooklyn so that it's not just one development group given charge over 17-acres of downtown real estate.  After all, Brooklyn Village was a village-style neighborhood with small-footprint structures alongside narrow streets in very walkable density.  Perhaps Brooklyn Village Charlotte can feel more like Brooklyn Heights or Park Slope in NYC, and less like the big-box scale of Hudson Yards.  I love NYC, lived there for ages, but feel no envy to make me want to measure any Charlotte redevelopment initiatives against anything going on in Manhattan.

Edited December 24, 2021 by RANYC

[go_vertical]

24 minutes ago, RANYC said:

Maybe BK Partners approaching the county for an extension gives the County the opportunity and pivot point to invite other developers into the redevelopment of Brooklyn so that it's not just one development group given charge over 17-acres of downtown real estate.

I absolutely agree that they should do something like this if an extention is requested but sadly I don't think the city council has the guts.  At least they should use that as an opportunity to strengthen the requirements for the project but I'm sure they'll just rubber stamp whatever is asked for with little to no discussion. 

[B Randy]

26 minutes ago, RANYC said:

From what I've read, the Brooklyn Redevelopment Agreement that BK Partners negotiated with the County says that construction must begin by February 2023.  Yet, Peebles is reported as telling a gathering this month that he expects to break ground in 16-18 months.  Such a ground-breaking would appear to be in violation of the agreement, and the county will need to decide whether to continue the deal with Peebles and BK Partners while suffering yet another delay, or to go with a different developer.  

Perhaps Peebles has his hands too full with these celestial ambitions in Manhattan.  Maybe BK Partners approaching the county for an extension gives the County the opportunity and pivot point to invite other developers into the redevelopment of Brooklyn so that it's not just one development group given charge over 17-acres of downtown real estate.  After all, Brooklyn Village was a village-style neighborhood with small-footprint structures alongside narrow streets in very walkable density.  Perhaps Brooklyn Village Charlotte can feel more like Brooklyn Heights or Park Slope in NYC, and less like the big-box scale of Hudson Yards.  I love NYC, lived there for ages, but feel no envy to make me want to measure any Charlotte redevelopment initiatives against anything going on in Manhattan.

The public/private game has definitely changed since the BV bid was awarded. As well as national developer interest in these complex multi block deals in Charlotte.  
 

Lots of investment into/by the BK group though to this point. Interesting political provocation. Already on extension of original agreement. 

[CLT Development]

never mind, not worth it. 

 

Edited December 25, 2021 by The Real Clayton

[JRCLT]

never mind, not worth it. 
 

Context pleaseeee.

[Madison Parkitect]

On 12/24/2021 at 8:36 AM, SydneyCarton said:

That's not due to lack of demand, as was suggested.   Nor is it due to Peebles' inability to get a project done in NY because, as noted,  Peebles was  the mere face of the  project.  Witkoff was the actual developer.  The local community board was outraged that a city -owned site would not include affordable housing.  A few  buildings north of this site, construction on another city-owned lot  is about to start on 680 and 650' towers with a common base that will include apartments, a hotel, and  a large affordable housing component.  Witkoff and Peebles said that they will re-submit when the city reissues the new RFP which will include an affordable housing requirement.  This was all driven by the new governor's re-election campaign because she was criticized that this project lacked affordable housing. 

Here's a rendering of the aforementioned 680'/650' "fraternal twin" towers  that are rising up the street.

 

In other NY news yesterday, plans for the new 1,575' tall office building/hotel next to Grand Central were fully approved yesterday.  The 1,401' One Vanderbilt on the other side of Grand Central is fully leased within a few months of its opening.  Blackstone is looking for 1m sf of new space, and it's apparently, one of the possible anchors.  Also, yesterday, Extell announced that its Fifth Avenue site that is now almost fully demolished with yield yet another 1,100' tower.

 

 

Construction has also started on three new 1,000' condos and on several other new office buildings including a 1,050' foot spec tower at 343 Madison, and, of course, the 1,425' JP Morgan Chase Tower is about 100' above street level now.  NYC is pretty much the only place in the world where a 700' tower would be razed and replaced with a 1,425' tower.  With respect to the condos, the NYC market remains unparalleled.  A recent sale at 220 Central Park South, a 950' condo that is basically sold out, puts the total sales at that one building at over $3B.  Only in NY.

https://therealdeal.com/2021/12/23/top-docs-condo-deal-tips-vornados-220-central-park-south-past-3b/

 

Here's the 1,050' spec tower at 343 Madison.

International money laundering is a hell of a drug.

[KJHburg]

At least Mr Peebles has not started something and left it unfinished like another local has done.  Lets see what happens this year and according to his contract with the city and county he is still within the bounds of it.     

I did not think it is wise to let one developer do a multi block development like this anyway.  In the future why could not the city/county break up the parcels into different developers that would compete to do their projects, compete with imagination, design etc.   There is such a huge block of land uptown where this happened the old Hal Marshall/Sears site on N Tryon and blocks along N College.   In my opinion the long wait for 2nd Ward Brooklyn to redevelop is government made. 

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

At least Mr Peebles has not started something and left it unfinished like another local has done.  Lets see what happens this year and according to his contract with the city and county he is still within the bounds of it.     

I did not think it is wise to let one developer do a multi block development like this anyway.  In the future why could not the city/county break up the parcels into different developers that would compete to do their projects, compete with imagination, design etc.   There is such a huge block of land uptown where this happened the old Hal Marshall/Sears site on N Tryon and blocks along N College.   In my opinion the long wait for 2nd Ward Brooklyn to redevelop is government made. 

I agree.  Small-footprint buildings can increase architectural and structural diversity, induce a village feeling, create more pedestrian appeal, give multiple developers the chance to make small yet resonant statements of creativity in our urban core, and give uptown a greater general sense of eclecticism.

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by RANYC

[slipperypete]

Glad I can come to this thread for updates on NYC development and lots of pictures of historic and new NYC residential buildings!