Church Street Plaza | 28-Story Office/Hotel [Phase 1 Under Construction]

[JFW657]

2 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

I’m not sure you could - you’ve tried.

Its a shame really.

What's a shame is how some people react to differing opinions.

[prahaboheme]

4 hours ago, AmIReal said:

If that was all we got I may give your view a little more weight.

What did it give you?

4 hours ago, popsiclebrandon said:

Wait people complain about demo-ing that so we could have The Plaza? Massive upgrade that was and glad they did it. Orange would be much lesser with that building still standing.

Which decade are you referring to?

[prahaboheme]

3 hours ago, JFW657 said:

What's a shame is how some people react to differing opinions.

And to historical relevance despite awareness.

[JFW657]

10 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

And to historical relevance despite awareness.

 

[nite owℓ]

A few more throw backs:

(Source: https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/)

 

[leondecollao]

After years on this board and not having lived through the process of getting the plaza built, I had always taken it for granted that the buildings that were demolished must have been of some tremendous historical significance but after seeing these pics......that’s what some of you guys are upset about? I don’t get it.  There are buildings close to identical to those standing in downtown today and no one would be upset to see those go either....

[nite owℓ]

^^This is why I'm posting throwback pics of the McCrory-Woolworth buildings (which are not easy to find, BTW) to put things into perspective and expose the "Evil Bulldozer-Buddy" fallacy. Granted, the buildings were sentimental to some, but TBH I'm tired of people exaggerating the importance of the structures. They're acting like Kuhn tore down the Kress building or the Taj Mahal. These were neglected buildings & reported to be homeless havens at one point. I couldn't find the rendering from when the developer attempted to incorporate the facades into the design, but if I'm remembering properly, it was fugly. Also IIRC, buildings were also razed to build "BB&T/Citrus Center/CNA" Tower and the Suntrust Complex but I never hear anyone complaining about the structures we lost to build either one of those.

We certainly lucked out with the Solaire at the Plaza because financing & CRA incentives do not come around like that anymore. What we got: a mixed-use development w/2 office towers, a high-rise condo, a movie theater and clean/streamlined ground floor retail fronting Orange, Church, Pine and Magnolia and yet somehow this is considered a fail LOL.  I can't...

Edited January 25, 2020 by nite owℓ

[spenser1058]

Aside from the buildings, there was a proclamation by the city agreeing to preserve at least the facades.

Bulldozer Buddy, without authorization from anyone, took it upon himself (in the dark of night), to demolish them.

That ain’t democracy, folks. Sorry our form of government means so little to you. And it has been a theme of this administration, not just a one-off.

 

[AmIReal]

3 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Aside from the buildings, there was a proclamation by the city agreeing to preserve at least the facades.

Bulldozer Buddy, without authorization from anyone, took it upon himself (in the dark of night), to demolish them.

That ain’t democracy, folks. Sorry our form of government means so little to you. And it has been a theme of this administration, not just a one-off.

 

Sorry, but that is not true. The Mayor had authorization from the City Council to move forward with the demolition and construction of the new building as well as incentive financing. The historic board lost the ability to provide input on the existing building due to it being deemed unsafe by city engineers- which is exactly what the city code calls for. Because the property is in the historic district the historic board had purview over the design of the new building, which they provided. The democracy worked exactly how it is supposed to. Our elected officials took the input of their constituents and then voted in the way they saw fit. It turned out to be 5-1 in favor with the only nay being Sheehan- who up until the day before had been a yay. After that vote, the builder had a valid permit (had it for several days, but was held up for the vote) and he began the demo as everyone in the room knew would happen.

Remember, the 2 previous administrations were also on board with demo of this property, going back to when Jaymont bought it in '89. At that time, the property owner and his family who had owned property in Orlando since the 1800's said the building had no historic value and building new there would create better economic opportunity for the area. This demo and rebuild was a long time coming and was favored by an overwhelming majority.

On this subject of saving the facades and building around them- yes, it has been done successfully in some situations and it was all the rage in the 80s and 90s, but it is now seriously frowned upon by preservationist and designers.

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, AmIReal said:

Sorry, but that is not true. The Mayor had authorization from the City Council to move forward with the demolition and construction of the new building as well as incentive financing. The historic board lost the ability to provide input on the existing building due to it being deemed unsafe by city engineers- which is exactly what the city code calls for. Because the property is in the historic district the historic board had purview over the design of the new building, which they provided. The democracy worked exactly how it is supposed to. Our elected officials took the input of their constituents and then voted in the way they saw fit. It turned out to be 5-1 in favor with the only nay being Sheehan- who up until the day before had been a yay. After that vote, the builder had a valid permit (had it for several days, but was held up for the vote) and he began the demo as everyone in the room knew would happen.

Remember, the 2 previous administrations were also on board with demo of this property, going back to when Jaymont bought it in '89. At that time, the property owner and his family who had owned property in Orlando since the 1800's said the building had no historic value and building new there would create better economic opportunity for the area. This demo and rebuild was a long time coming and was favored by an overwhelming majority.

On this subject of saving the facades and building around them- yes, it has been done successfully in some situations and it was all the rage in the 80s and 90s, but it is now seriously frowned upon by preservationist and designers.

I'm only sorry I can't give this post both a   and a  .

It is my belief and opinion that the furor and indignation over the demolition of that block is centered around the personal nostalgia and childhood memories of some who grew up around here and went there with their parents as kids. Unfortunately, they would have been all too willing and even insistent, that the city put their personal feelings above the good of the rest of the community. That good being in the form of an increased tax base and an impressive, modern looking urban development at the premier intersection in all of downtown.

No developer would have ever wanted to incorporate those two boring old storefronts into a modern high-rise complex and just like Jaymont did in the 80's, they'd have all told Orlando to keep their precious dime stores and gone somewhere more accommodating.

And we'd still have a couple of old derelict buildings sitting there generating zero revenue for the city coffers or anything/anyone else.

Maybe if they had been brought up to code, there might be a couple of thrift stores or bars in there now. 

I will say this.... if a developer had come forward who actually wanted to use those two facades in a high-rise design, I'd have been all for it. They would have made good spots for a couple of fast food places like McDonald's or Wendy's.

[jgardnerucf]

Terror in Church St was good stuff.  Hell, I frickin' loved QZar. Especially, the window front counter top in the pizza parlor chilling Fri Sat night with skateboard on hoof. Good times.

And like I've said on here time before, always a great memory feeding the fish, spinning in a bar stool and getting a patty melt and chocolate malt with my Grandpa.

Good 'ol days. Seems like yesterday. Done got my powerballs tonight from the Solarie 7-11. Heaven is thanked. :-)

[jliv]

On 1/25/2020 at 3:19 PM, JFW657 said:

I'm only sorry I can't give this post both a   and a  .

It is my belief and opinion that the furor and indignation over the demolition of that block is centered around the personal nostalgia and childhood memories of some who grew up around here and went there with their parents as kids. Unfortunately, they would have been all too willing and even insistent, that the city put their personal feelings above the good of the rest of the community. That good being in the form of an increased tax base and an impressive, modern looking urban development at the premier intersection in all of downtown.

No developer would have ever wanted to incorporate those two boring old storefronts into a modern high-rise complex and just like Jaymont did in the 80's, they'd have all told Orlando to keep their precious dime stores and gone somewhere more accommodating.

And we'd still have a couple of old derelict buildings sitting there generating zero revenue for the city coffers or anything/anyone else.

Maybe if they had been brought up to code, there might be a couple of thrift stores or bars in there now. 

I will say this.... if a developer had come forward who actually wanted to use those two facades in a high-rise design, I'd have been all for it. They would have made good spots for a couple of fast food places like McDonald's or Wendy's.

I remember going to the McCrory's as a kid, but I also remember that god-awful "Terror on Church Street" attraction with the obnoxious character actors marauding all over downtown.  Losing the McCrory's was a bit sad, but that block sat mostly vacant for a long time, so downtown certainly benefited from the shot in the arm it got from that development after the decline of Church Street Station.

[jack]

On 1/25/2020 at 4:35 AM, spenser1058 said:

Aside from the buildings, there was a proclamation by the city agreeing to preserve at least the facades.

Bulldozer Buddy, without authorization from anyone, took it upon himself (in the dark of night), to demolish them.

That ain’t democracy, folks. Sorry our form of government means so little to you. And it has been a theme of this administration, not just a one-off.

 

What I recall was the council voted that night and the bulldozers were ready. I don't remember a proclamation. Regardless, the council can overturn previous decisions. 

[AmIReal]

6 hours ago, jack said:

I don't remember a proclamation

There was a "commitment" from the developer to attempt to use the terra cotta from the original building in the new building- which he at the time seem pretty gung ho on, but that did  not happen. Also, Ms. Sheehan voted no because she wanted the builder to work with the historic board in trying to utilize the old faced, but he had previously noted it would add over $5M to the project and he wouldn't do it. There was not a "proclamation" from the City.

[AmIReal]

I should also add that I do believe Mayor Dyer did a terrible job in handling this project. From the secret negotiations to the confidentiality agreements... it was all politics at its worse.

I also think we got a great development out of it and I am not the least bit sorry the old building have been replaced.

Mayor Dyer has gone on to do many other things I disagree with and many I am fully happy with. In the end, I believe he has pushed a vision and his voters have shown they support it.

Feel free to disagree.

[nite owℓ]

Wow, seems like it's all coming back to you now...

[AmIReal]

29 minutes ago, nite owℓ said:

Wow, seems like it's all coming back to you now...

I never thought differently. It was poorly handled, but it was being presented as illegally handled, which was not the case. If the same situation came up now I'd hope we'd have the same outcome with a different process.

[JFW657]

13 hours ago, AmIReal said:

I never thought differently. It was poorly handled, but it was being presented as illegally handled, which was not the case. If the same situation came up now I'd hope we'd have the same outcome with a different process.

Hizzoner did what was needed and got the job done.

That's all I care about.

The rest is all just a lot of hand wringing and back seat driving. 

[jrs2]

On 1/25/2020 at 4:35 AM, spenser1058 said:

Aside from the buildings, there was a proclamation by the city agreeing to preserve at least the facades.

Bulldozer Buddy, without authorization from anyone, took it upon himself (in the dark of night), to demolish them.

That ain’t democracy, folks. Sorry our form of government means so little to you. And it has been a theme of this administration, not just a one-off.

 

yeah, I read everyone's responses.  I was working downtown within the Jaymont Block when it happened.  There was a lot of drama with that midnight razing.  Sans that, had the developer not skimped and been the bane of the HOAs' collective existences at The Plaza, it wouldn't have been so bad.  But I was there pre, during, and since, and there was nothing but drama regarding him and monies that were owed to the HOA's.  That was one of the reasons the façade of the garage was never completed until B&G slapped a layer of stucco on it as his minimal attempt to fix that problem.  He also purchased the neighboring non-Jaymont buildings simply to avoid the costs surrounding the firewall issue (common ownership).  He overextended himself in Jax, which was part of the problem, but, nevertheless, it affected the project.  Also, regarding "shady," they had exclusives with communication companies and who would build out the individual units.  Outsiders don't know about and tend to gloss over the details.  Just like with Mica and everyone else surrounding other projects, on paper it looked more so like it was by the book, but, remember, the developer was a seasoned Chicago guy in developing projects and in doing things the Chicago way.  I'm familiar with that too, BTW.

[nite owℓ]

27 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

I was working downtown within the Jaymont Block when it happened.

By any chance, do you remember a SOBE-esque martini bar in that area? It was located on the 2nd floor of one the nearby buildings... had to use exterior stairs to get up there and I think it was only accessible either by alley or parking lot. Forgot what it was called, but it didn't survive the surrounding Jaymont Block construction/road closures.

[spenser1058]

Perhaps the worst part of the Jaymont debacle is that night the restoration of the core all but died. Since that time, demolition by neglect has continued ever so slowly.

What we envisioned for the historic district is frozen in time at what we achieved prior to that night in 2003. Since that time,cities like Winter Garden and Kissimmee have left us in the dust with interesting urban places. St. Pete, Pensacola and Ft. Myers have also been busy restoring their downtowns. Not to worry. We keep on building those Baker Barrios masterpieces that everyone is flocking to Orlando to see!

[AmIReal]

28 minutes ago, nite owℓ said:

By any chance, do you remember a SOBE-esque martini bar in that area? It was located on the 2nd floor of one the nearby buildings... had to use exterior stairs to get up there and I think it was only accessible either by alley or parking lot.

I don't remember one in the Jaymont block, but there was something of that description that you could enter via the alley off Church between what is now Artisan and Irish Shannon's- behind what is now the UCF Executive Center on Pine St.

I think it was called Ybor's.

[JFW657]

22 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Perhaps the worst part of the Jaymont debacle is that night the restoration of the core all but died. Since that time, demolition by neglect has continued ever so slowly.

What we envisioned for the historic district is frozen in time at what we achieved prior to that night in 2003. Since that time,cities like Winter Garden and Kissimmee have left us in the dust with interesting urban places. St. Pete, Pensacola and Ft. Myers have also been busy restoring their downtowns. Not to worry. We keep on building those Baker Barrios masterpieces that everyone is flocking to Orlando to see!

I don't know of any old structures that have been torn down or neglected in the downtown core since the Jaymont block improvement because, quite honestly, there never were that many to begin with.

Outside of Orange Court, which I was sad to see go, what relatively few older buildings we have along and just off of Orange Ave are still intact. 

And I can never stop reiterating.... the Woolworth and McCrory buildings just didn't fit that corner. 

They were more of a detriment than an asset.

[nite owℓ]

35 minutes ago, AmIReal said:

I don't remember one in the Jaymont block, but there was something of that description that you could enter via the alley off Church between what is now Artisan and Irish Shannon's- behind what is now the UCF Executive Center on Pine St.

I think it was called Ybor's.

Yes, that's the one! I've been racking my brain trying to remember the name of that classy little joint. Looked up the present-day tenant, but it's not the kind of place that I would want to visit. You're right, maybe it was 55 West's construction that caused it to close... downtown went through quite a transformation during that time.

[Jerry95]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

Perhaps the worst part of the Jaymont debacle is that night the restoration of the core all but died. Since that time, demolition by neglect has continued ever so slowly.

What we envisioned for the historic district is frozen in time at what we achieved prior to that night in 2003. Since that time,cities like Winter Garden and Kissimmee have left us in the dust with interesting urban places. St. Pete, Pensacola and Ft. Myers have also been busy restoring their downtowns. Not to worry. We keep on building those Baker Barrios masterpieces that everyone is flocking to Orlando to see!

Orlando and any of these cities are simply not the same. A better example would be one of the cities that leads us in population. Miami is in a huge downtown development boom and people most definitely want to be there!