Church Street Plaza | 28-Story Office/Hotel [Phase 1 Under Construction]

[gibby]

I like the idea of putting a new tower where the ballroom is but I can't understand how they would even consider demolishing the interiors of the south side of Church Street Station.

[spenser1058]

16 minutes ago, gibby said:

I like the idea of putting a new tower where the ballroom is but I can't understand how they would even consider demolishing the interiors of the south side of Church Street Station.

Bumby Hardware (Hamburger Mary's) is historic but I'm not sure how much of the rest of that side of the street is. (The train station also, of course -Ferg's- but it's across the tracks.)

Having said that, Cheyenne is pretty well-known due to all the years on TV, not to mention a great building regardless of how old it is(n't).

Edited May 14, 2018 by spenser1058

[prahaboheme]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

Bumby Hardware (Hamburger Mary's) is historic but I'm not sure how much of the rest of that side of the street is. (The train station also, of course -Ferg's- but it's across the tracks.)

Having said that, Cheyenne is pretty well-known due to all the years on TV, not to mention a great building regardless of how old it is(n't).

And it's also good urbanism and great ambiance. I would be very sad to see any of these buildings leveled for yet another glass tower.

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

Bumby Hardware (Hamburger Mary's) is historic but I'm not sure how much of the rest of that side of the street is. (The train station also, of course -Ferg's- but it's across the tracks.)

Having said that, Cheyenne is pretty well-known due to all the years on TV, not to mention a great building regardless of how old it is(n't).

However old and historic it is or isn't, I think it's old and historic enough to merit saving given that we have so few buildings from any bygone eras of old Orlando. I'd rather have the Cheyenne and the ballroom there than another glass tower. 

[spenser1058]

I'm a big fan of Cheyenne and hope it stays.

The ballroom I'm less enthusiastic about. It's overdone imho relative to what was actually ever on Church St. (it's much more a manifestation of Bob Snow's ego than compatible with the scale on the block). It's also too large for the lot it sits on and that will only be exacerbated once the tower next door is finished.

To do it justice would require it to sit in the middle of a wide, sweeping lawn, Tara style. 

Ironically, the mid-century courthouse annex had the same failing. They squeezed it onto a lot much too small and it just looked squashed for 40 years.

Also, if we have to keep the ballroom, it needs to be refurbished soon. At the moment, it looks like Tara AFTER Sherman came through instead of the halcyon days with the Tarleton twins.

[Dale]

Bumby Arcade was such an interesting, rabbit warren-like little place.

[prahaboheme]

There was once a rendering floating around for Bob Snow's vision of the entire block.  There was to be a mid-rise hotel there.  I can't remember if the ballroom was a long-term part of the project, or if the hotel would have replaced it.  Does anyone have the rendering dating back to the 80s?

Edited May 14, 2018 by prahaboheme

[spenser1058]

1 minute ago, prahaboheme said:

There was once a rendering floating around for Bob Snow's vision of the entire block.  There was to be a mid-rise hotel there.  I can't remember if the ballroom was a long-term part of the project, or if the hotel would have replaced it.  Does anyone have the rendering dating back to the 80s?

Originally, there was to have been a hotel attached to the ballroom. 

[JFW657]

45 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

I'm a big fan of Cheyenne and hope it stays.

The ballroom I'm less enthusiastic about. It's overdone imho relative to what was actually ever on Church St. (it's much more a manifestation of Bob Snow's ego than compatible with the scale on the block). It's also too large for the lot it sits on and that will only be exacerbated once the tower next door is finished.

To do it justice would require it to sit in the middle of a wide, sweeping lawn, Tara style. 

Ironically, the mid-century courthouse annex had the same failing. They squeezed it onto a lot much too small and it just looked squashed for 40 years.

Also, if we have to keep the ballroom, it needs to be refurbished soon. At the moment, it looks like Tara AFTER Sherman came through instead of the halcyon days with the Tarleton twins.

I would like to see the ballroom remodelled too. 

[prahaboheme]

Here is an image (must be from the turn of the century or earlier) that also shows the Cheyenne Saloon building.  This building is as historic as any in Orlando as far as I'm concerned:

https://orlandoretro.com/2014/01/24/commuter-rail-before-sunrail/

Edited May 14, 2018 by prahaboheme

[spenser1058]

The Cheyenne was put in a building from 1920 that was once Purcell's Western Wear. The interior was  gutted and most of the exterior walls were replaced. I imagine there are a few parts of the structure that might date back to 1920 but if there are it was mostly by accident. 

It's a bit like saying that Tinker Field was "preserved" because some of the land is the same.

[JFW657]

23 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

The Cheyenne was put in a building from 1920 that was once Purcell's Western Wear. The interior was  gutted and most of the exterior walls were replaced. I imagine there are a few parts of the structure that might date back to 1920 but if there are it was mostly by accident. 

It's a bit like saying that Tinker Field was "preserved" because some of the land is the same.

When are you saying that the exterior walls were replaced... when it was a western wear store or when it was converted to the Cheyenne Saloon in the mid 1980's?

[prahaboheme]

26 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

The Cheyenne was put in a building from 1920 that was once Purcell's Western Wear. The interior was  gutted and most of the exterior walls were replaced. I imagine there are a few parts of the structure that might date back to 1920 but if there are it was mostly by accident. 

It's a bit like saying that Tinker Field was "preserved" because some of the land is the same.

Thanks for the history. I actually think this is a pretty good case for preserving a facade that honors the history of the building, to an extent, rather than allowing for it to be replaced with a modern one.  Buildings are built, and rebuilt, throughout their existence.  The building that houses the current reiteration is still likely more faithful to Church St than anything that it'll be replaced by.

 

[spenser1058]

19 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

When are you saying that the exterior walls were replaced... when it was a western wear store or when it was converted to the Cheyenne Saloon in the mid 1980's?

I'm pretty sure Purcell's had been gone for a while by the time Bob got to it (Rosie's opened in 1974 and it was about 10 years before he got across the street.) And, yes the renovations were all his.

[spenser1058]

12 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

Thanks for the history. I actually think this is a pretty good case for preserving a facade that honors the history of the building, to an extent, rather than allowing for it to be replaced with a modern one.  Buildings are built, and rebuilt, throughout their existence.  The building that houses the current reiteration is still likely more faithful to Church St than anything that it'll be replaced by.

 

I definitely agree and Cheyenne melded into the fabric of downtown perhaps better than any of Bob's other creations. 

With a few more years and more solid resources, it's interesting to ponder if Cheyenne might have an impact just slightly less than the Opry had on country music and Nashville.

Think about it: if Lou Perlman had been a bit more reputable, imagine tying the Orlando boy bands into appearances at the Cheyenne on non-country nights.

The Opry always had the resources of local firm National Life behind it in those early days. What might have happened if Cheyenne could have leveraged something like that? Heck, we'll get Andy to ponder how they could have wandered over on Orange Ave to tie in an occasional set with what was then Orlando's burgeoning alt rock scene?

Therein lies one of my long-standing grievances with Bob Snow. Instead of being the entrepreneur who figured out how to make CSS work in those post-NTC, PI, City Walk days, he was already long sold out and off to Vegas.

By the time he got to Vegas, trying to clone a rococo theme he'd been peddling since the '60's was a complete failure. He seemed incapable of updating his concept.

And that's another part of the problem. CSS was never about Orlando's history, it was an ersatz version overlaid on us. As a result, it probably shouldn't be a surprise it had a relatively brief shelf life for success.

Your point may well be the most salient one. Perhaps Bob's major contribution was convincing Mayor Bill and a few others that working to restore downtown was a worthy endeavor. While Bob's was a set piece that couldn't endure, it set in motion the creative energies of those whose updated ideas would make downtown a success later on.

Edited May 15, 2018 by spenser1058

[JFW657]

3 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

The Cheyenne was put in a building from 1920 that was once Purcell's Western Wear. The interior was  gutted and most of the exterior walls were replaced. I imagine there are a few parts of the structure that might date back to 1920 but if there are it was mostly by accident. 

It's a bit like saying that Tinker Field was "preserved" because some of the land is the same.

I think all of the current exterior walls were part of the original building. Parts of the old facade were knocked out to accommodate the new large windows and entryway, the roofline was extended upward with the new cornice added and the canopies and their supports extending off the facade are new too. But the walls and main structural portions of the facade between the windows are part of the old building as are the side and rear walls.

I found this old newspaper clipping that shows the rear of the building with the framing of the new roof. You can see where the original roofline was. There is a horizontal reveal line there now.

[spenser1058]

Great find!

[JFW657]

Don't know why it's dated 1980, though.

That can't be right.

[spenser1058]

5 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Don't know why it's dated 1980, though.

That can't be right.

Iirc, Cheyenne opened summer 1982 so that's probably not too far off.

[JFW657]

2 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Iirc, Cheyenne opened summer 1982 so that's probably not too far off.

I was thinking it opened closer to the mid 80's, but I think you're right about '82.

[Pieson]

This has been one of the most interesting reads and historical delineation on here in a while. Great stuff everyone. I was a kid during the heyday of church street so my memories are exactly of that.... perhaps why I always think of it so fondly and want to see the preservation of it 

Does anyone else remember that ridiculous train Perlman had on the track at church street?  

I also remember club Paris and that obnoxious dog statue out front of the ballroom. Perhaps the reason why I’m more ok with seeing that part of Orlando “history” go 

[HankStrong]

14 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

Here is an image (must be from the turn of the century or earlier) that also shows the Cheyenne Saloon building.  This building is as historic as any in Orlando as far as I'm concerned:

https://orlandoretro.com/2014/01/24/commuter-rail-before-sunrail/

https://orlandoretro.com/2013/05/19/the-round-building-orange-ave-and-south-st/

 

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

[spenser1058]

Just imagine Cheyenne with a brise soleil!

[WAJAS]

3 hours ago, HankStrong said:

https://orlandoretro.com/2013/05/19/the-round-building-orange-ave-and-south-st/

 

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Did they ever decide what they're going to do with that brise soleil stone?

[spenser1058]

23 minutes ago, WAJAS98 said:

Did they ever decide what they're going to do with that brise soleil stone?

It seems to have gone off to some warehouse like the Morse's neon signs to be mentioned once a decade but otherwise never to be seen again.