Church Street Plaza | 28-Story Office/Hotel [Phase 1 Under Construction]

[Urban25]

I’m all for saving buildings only if it is a right fit, these are not a right fit for such an urban area that is next to the tallest building in downtown, so tear it down!

Edited May 30, 2019 by Urban25

[dcluley98]

Everything I have read referenced the Ballroom is the only part getting torn down. Lincoln and Mason Capital Partners own all the buildings south of Church Street, but they have only said they would replace the Ballroom and "Integrate" phase 2 of CSP with the area of the other buildings. The footprint of the Ballroom is smaller than the phase 1 footprint. I hope that means that they can come up with some creative design to make phase 2 look different, taller, and tied into some of the existing buildings as sort of an "entrance to Church street from the SunRail platform. That would be ideal to me.

I agree that a second "twin" of this building directly next to it would not look good, however. I don't mind the phase 1 building design as it is, but think that the scale is a bit off with the top "thinner" portion to short compared to the "pedestal" portion now that it is topped off. Still want to see the finished version, but I don't think it is as bad as a lot of people here think. It looks a whole lot better than the "beige/blue boxes and visor" dreck that we are used to seeing, IMO. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by dcluley98

[smileguy]

2 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

Everything I have read referenced the Ballroom is the only part getting torn down. Lincoln and Mason Capital Partners own all the buildings south of Church Street, but they have only said they would replace the Ballroom and "Integrate" phase 2 of CSP with the area of the other buildings. The footprint of the Ballroom is smaller than the phase 1 footprint. I hope that means that they can come up with some creative design to make phase 2 look different, taller, and tied into some of the existing buildings as sort of an "entrance to Church street from the SunRail platform. That would be ideal to me.

I agree that a second "twin" of this building directly next to it would not look good, however. I don't mind the phase 1 building design as it is, but think that the scale is a bit off with the top "thinner" portion to short compared to the "pedestal" portion now that it is topped off. Still want to see the finished version, but I don't think it is as bad as a lot of people here think. It looks a whole lot better than the "beige/blue boxes and visor" dreck that we are used to seeing, IMO. 

I'm no architect, but what if the second tower was offset from the South tower (with pedestal extending West), the "thin" part twice the height, with the angled hat going the other way, creating a "v".  I think that would be  -- not unattractive?

[dcluley98]

Yeah, that's the kind of thing I am hoping for, and then the deck on the pedestal (similar to the hotel amenity deck) could overlook Church Street Station and the plaza to the Northeast.  I want it to be taller and skinnier in general so the proportion of the top and the base pedestal is not so off.

Edited May 30, 2019 by dcluley98

[JFW657]

7 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

Everything I have read referenced the Ballroom is the only part getting torn down. Lincoln and Mason Capital Partners own all the buildings south of Church Street, but they have only said they would replace the Ballroom and "Integrate" phase 2 of CSP with the area of the other buildings. The footprint of the Ballroom is smaller than the phase 1 footprint. I hope that means that they can come up with some creative design to make phase 2 look different, taller, and tied into some of the existing buildings as sort of an "entrance to Church street from the SunRail platform. That would be ideal to me.

I agree that a second "twin" of this building directly next to it would not look good, however. I don't mind the phase 1 building design as it is, but think that the scale is a bit off with the top "thinner" portion to short compared to the "pedestal" portion now that it is topped off. Still want to see the finished version, but I don't think it is as bad as a lot of people here think. It looks a whole lot better than the "beige/blue boxes and visor" dreck that we are used to seeing, IMO. 

I think the Bungalower article said that both the ballroom and the Orchid Garden, which was added on to the rear of the Bumby Arcade when the Cheyenne Saloon was built, are both slated for demolition.

As for ownership of the properties, the same article said that Lincoln only owns the ballroom, the Orchid Garden and the Cheyenne. The Bumby Arcade and everything east of it are owned by someone else and as such, not on the block for possible demolition.

[JFW657]

20 minutes ago, smileguy said:

I'm no architect, but what if the second tower was offset from the South tower (with pedestal extending West), the "thin" part twice the height, with the angled hat going the other way, creating a "v".  I think that would be  -- not unattractive?

 

15 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

Yeah, that's the kind of thing I am hoping for, and then the deck on the pedestal (similar to the hotel amenity deck) could overlook Church Street Station and the plaza to the Northeast.  I want it to be taller and skinnier in general so the proportion of the top and the base pedestal is not so off.

My question is, and I'm surprised that (afaik) nobody has mentioned this yet, if they knew they were going to want or need to build more office space.... WHY DIDN'T THEY JUST BUILD THE FIRST TOWER TALLER TO BEGIN WITH????  

[dcluley98]

I considered "the Orchid Garden" as part of the ballroom. As for the other buildings: https://www.thenewsfunnel.com/press-release/hff-announces-4m-financing-mixed-use-property-downtown-orlando

Holliday Fenoglio Fowler, L.P. (HFF) announces $4 million in post-acquisition financing for Church Street Station South, a 50,888-square-foot, mixed-use property that houses a variety of popular restaurants and unique event spaces in downtown Orlando, Florida.

The HFF team worked on behalf of the borrower, a partnership between Lincoln Property Company and Mason Capital Partners, to secure a senior loan with Mercantil Bank. 

The two-story Church Street Station South is located at 110-128 West Church Street and is part of historic Church Street Station, the primary restaurant and entertainment district in downtown Orlando.  The borrower intends to directly integrate the property with their adjacent Church Street Plaza development, the first phase of which is a 28-story tower containing 215,000 square feet of Class A office, an AC Marriott hotel and a parking deck, all currently under construction. The property is visible from Interstate 4, which boasts traffic counts of more than 140,000 vehicles per day and is directly adjacent to a station along the SunRail, Orlando’s commuter rail system.  With portions of the property originally built in 1886, this historic asset boasts some of the most unique and beautiful venues in the city and houses popular restaurants and event spaces, including Hamburger Mary’s, El Buda, Pepe’s Cantina, the Orchid Room and the Cheyanne Saloon.

“The Church Street Plaza development is a landmark project that will further cement Church Street Station as the ‘go-to’ locale for downtown residents, employees, visitors and students to gather,” Van Reken said.  “This historic property is a linchpin connecting Orlando’s past to its future.”

[dcluley98]

On a side note, looks like they are now putting cladding on the eastern portion or the top levels: 

[JFW657]

19 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

I considered "the Orchid Garden" as part of the ballroom. As for the other buildings: 

The two-story Church Street Station South is located at 110-128 West Church Street and is part of historic Church Street Station, the primary restaurant and entertainment district in downtown Orlando.  

With portions of the property originally built in 1886, this historic asset boasts some of the most unique and beautiful venues in the city and houses popular restaurants and event spaces, including Hamburger Mary’s, El Buda, Pepe’s Cantina, the Orchid Room and the Cheyanne Saloon.

So then maybe the "Orchid GARDEN" and the "Orchid ROOM" are two different places? 

[dcluley98]

Yeah, I think maybe they consider the "Orchid Garden" the little fenced in Courtyard between the Ballroom and the "Orchid Room" the addition (former club Paris) added onto south side of Bumby Arcade with the large curved balcony and bay windows. The courtyard itself is where they held many events/weddings. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by dcluley98

[dcluley98]

Okay guys, so sleuthing around the internet. . . Here's an image showing the outline of the planned total Church Street Plaza site from Lincoln Property Group's Brochure on the CSP Development.

That may clear up their intent (or maybe not, lol). 
 

Edited May 30, 2019 by dcluley98

[codypet]

So this is all consistent with the ownership map that I posted previously which points to the Orchid Room and Cheyenne staying, the ballroom going and I assume you'll be able to access the lobby of Church St Phase II from the entrance at the Bumby Arcade.  Not a bad gig.  That would activate Church St as a whole better since you'd be getting more business traffic walking down Church during the day.  You'd also have the additional pedestrian traffic associated with the relocated Sunrail station.

[JFW657]

That I could live with.

Build a good looking tower and leave the other CSS buildings alone. 

[nite owℓ]

I'm all for giving each property the potential to develop to it's highest and best use and a new glass structure could look out of place if care is not given to ensure that it fits in with it's surroundings. I could be wrong, but I believe the Cheyenne Saloon is not protected under historic preservation due to alterations to the original structure. No doubt it has historical features that are worth saving, however, it's an odd building because it looks great from Church St at street level but the big blank wall along Garland Ave does absolutely nothing for pedestrian activity and creates a dead zone along Garland. Maybe if they modified the Garland side by adding windows or continued the wrap around balcony I'd be more eager to see it stay. But as it is, it's not living up to it's best use as a corner property IMO.

None of this matters anyway until we know what Lincoln's intentions are, and to date, they never signaled that Cheyenne Saloon would be included in the redevelopment so it's all just speculation at this point.

[spenser1058]

9 minutes ago, nite owℓ said:

I'm all for giving each property the potential to develop to it's highest and best use and a new glass structure could look out of place if care is not given to ensure that it fits in with it's surroundings. I could be wrong, but I believe the Cheyenne Saloon is not protected under historic preservation due to alterations to the original structure. No doubt it has historical features that are worth saving, however, it's an odd building because it looks great from Church St at street level but the big blank wall along Garland Ave does absolutely nothing for pedestrian activity and creates a dead zone along Garland. Maybe if they modified the Garland side by adding windows or continued the wrap around balcony I'd be more eager to see it stay. But as it is, it's not living up to it's best use as a corner property IMO.

None of this matters anyway until we know what Lincoln's intentions are, and to date, they never signaled that Cheyenne Saloon would be included in the redevelopment so it's all just speculation at this point.

Nite Owl, have you been in the Cheyenne? It has to be one of the most attractive bar/performance venues I’ve visited. I’m almost certain it’s not landmarked but I sure don’t want to lose it.

I agree about the blank wall on Garland. What was Bob Snow thinking? (Given my opinion of Bob, I could wager, but for reasons that escape me he’s still much venerated among the older generations so I’ll keep my thoughts to myself.)

Nevertheless, a well-planned mural could ameliorate the meh quality of the wall. To me, Cheyenne is definitely a keeper.

Speaking of wall murals, if you haven’t yet, check out the new salute to the late, great Billy Manes on the west wall of Burton’s Frosted Mug in TP.

It’s not only great to have Billy remembered, it’s also wonderful to FINALLY have that wall cleaned up after an eternity.

[prahaboheme]

4 hours ago, JFW657 said:

 

My question is, and I'm surprised that (afaik) nobody has mentioned this yet, if they knew they were going to want or need to build more office space.... WHY DIDN'T THEY JUST BUILD THE FIRST TOWER TALLER TO BEGIN WITH????  

Go back pages ago - I asked this same question. Why build a mid-rise knowing that a phase 2 is imminent when the project could have been taller from the start.

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

Nite Owl, have you been in the Cheyenne? It has to be one of the most attractive bar/performance venues I’ve visited. I’m almost certain it’s not landmarked but I sure don’t want to lose it.

I agree about the blank wall on Garland. What was Bob Snow thinking? 

My guess is that because the west side of the building alongside Garland was a nothing strip of sidewalk with only an I-4 embankment across the street, so why would he worry about pedestrian activity along a strip people only used to walk to and ftom their cars as they were arriving and leaving?

Certainly now, that wall could stand to lose those exterior stairwells and maybe put in some type of outdoor dining area. Possibly a wall mural depicting store fronts and cafes with some vending carts and covered tables and chairs.

[spenser1058]

1 minute ago, JFW657 said:

My guess is that because the west side of the building alongside Garland was a nothing strip of sidewalk with only an I-4 embankment across the street, so why would he worry about pedestrian activity along a strip people only used to walk to and ftom their cars as they were arriving and leaving?

Certainly now, that wall could stand to lose those exterior stairwells and maybe put in some type of outdoor dining area. Possibly a wall mural depicting store fronts and cafes with some vending carts and covered tables and chairs.

I like that.

[Xander]

3 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

I like that.

Just wrap the second floor facade that's on Church St around to that side of the building, maybe a mural, put some benches out there and be done with it.

[spenser1058]

5 hours ago, JFW657 said:

 

My question is, and I'm surprised that (afaik) nobody has mentioned this yet, if they knew they were going to want or need to build more office space.... WHY DIDN'T THEY JUST BUILD THE FIRST TOWER TALLER TO BEGIN WITH????  

It’s interesting that Lincoln built Sun Bank Center and has gone short and stubby ever since.

[AmIReal]

5 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

I think maybe they consider the "Orchid Garden" the little fenced in Courtyard between the Ballroom and the "Orchid Room" the addition

They may consider it that way, but the Orchid Garden IS the beautiful interior space seen below... (respect to Adam Opris Photography)

Found here-https://www.churchstreetstation.com/og 

There is not a place called the Orchid Room, so they may have just thrown that term out loosely. The outdoor courtyard is a part of the Orchid Garden. 

The Jaxson has some additional info today.

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/adaptive-reuse-orlandos-church-street-station/

 

[aent]

9 hours ago, JFW657 said:

My question is, and I'm surprised that (afaik) nobody has mentioned this yet, if they knew they were going to want or need to build more office space.... WHY DIDN'T THEY JUST BUILD THE FIRST TOWER TALLER TO BEGIN WITH????  

Phase 2 was planned from day 1, they promised a Sunrail station  in phase 1 that was dependent on phase 2 being built. As to why they didn't just make it 1 phase, they probably wanted to make sure the space was adequetely leased, and probably felt that putting that much space on the market all at once wasn't a good idea, but the timing of what they did will spread it out over a year or 2, and probably makes the financing a whole lot easier to have phase 2 with phase 1 as collateral and starting to bring revenue instead of trying to do it all at once.

 

[spenser1058]

11 minutes ago, aent said:

Phase 2 was planned from day 1, they promised a Sunrail station  in phase 1 that was dependent on phase 2 being built. As to why they didn't just make it 1 phase, they probably wanted to make sure the space was adequetely leased, and probably felt that putting that much space on the market all at once wasn't a good idea, but the timing of what they did will spread it out over a year or 2, and probably makes the financing a whole lot easier to have phase 2 with phase 1 as collateral and starting to bring revenue instead of trying to do it all at once.

 

If true, what makes downtown Orlando inherently riskier than other similar tier cities such that they are more likely to go out on a limb with a taller building there but not here?

The answer to that should answer the burning question which is forever being asked here.

[dcluley98]

Lack of demand for commercial office space so the pro-forma for financing limited it to a certain amount of SF, of which, part of it was going to be occupied by the Architect, and part of it by the CM. Not many people would have lent the money for a bigger building. 

However, I would like to have seen them go taller/skinnier in the beginning phase, and then promise the Sunrail station for phase 2 to get more buy-in traction, with a lower height second phase that steps down to the Church Street buildings and pedestrian area. Put the taller one toward the I-4/408 interchange where nobody walks and offers a taller incoming profile from the vantage of our major highways that act as the entrance to Downtown. 

They always needed a second phase to build out the SunRail station, so why not go with a smaller footprint/taller tower in Phase 1 and then do wider and shorter in phase 2? (other than cost?) 

[JFW657]

5 hours ago, AmIReal said:

They may consider it that way, but the Orchid Garden IS the beautiful interior space seen below... (respect to Adam Opris Photography)

Found here-https://www.churchstreetstation.com/og 

There is not a place called the Orchid Room, so they may have just thrown that term out loosely. The outdoor courtyard is a part of the Orchid Garden. 

The Jaxson has some additional info today.

Well, they may still be making some sort of differentiation between the enclosed portion and the outdoor courtyard. At least it looks that way according to the property outline picture dcluley posted earlier today, which was taken from a Lincoln Properties brochure...

It clearly shows the enclosed Orchid Garden space outside of the boundary.

Let's hope that beautiful space doesn't get demo'd.