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Church Street Plaza | 28-Story Office/Hotel [Phase 1 Under Construction]


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Wasn't the old Orange Court Hotel in a bad case of disrepair?  I thought I remember someone saying at the end of its life it was a weekly rental place and completely trashed with very little worth saving.  Sort of like that old tower hotel out in Ocoee that had to be demolished.

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33 minutes ago, codypet said:

Wasn't the old Orange Court Hotel in a bad case of disrepair?  I thought I remember someone saying at the end of its life it was a weekly rental place and completely trashed with very little worth saving.  Sort of like that old tower hotel out in Ocoee that had to be demolished.

Well, the story was that is was pretty trashed condition-wise and would've required extensive repairs to save, but I was speaking strictly in terms of architectural/historical value.

As for whether or not it was "worth" saving, I guess that depends on what "worth" means to you. I suppose that from the monetary point of view of a property owner or developer, there was probably not much "worth" there.

But from the view of a local resident who thinks in terms of historical and architectural value, the "worth" of that building far outweighed what occupies that spot now.

Depends on one's point of view.

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8 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

 

8 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

But from the view of a local resident who thinks in terms of historical and architectural value, the "worth" of that building far outweighed what occupies that spot now.

Depends on one's point of view.

That sums up my previous dissertation in one paragraph. Good work

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11 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

A good point, JFW, my statement was imprecise. I was thinking mostly about clearance of lots along N. Orange Ave., thinking of the hotel that once was the home for WDBO AM. 

I also think of the grand old houses torn down to build the Landmarks or Anderson and Rush which was sacrificed for the Paramount.

The San Juan Hotel which gave way to the totally generic Atlantic Bank building at Orange and Central (truly generic in that case as the bank replicated the same building design in cities across Florida- the only saving grace for ours was Mayor Bill's insistence it be turned catty-corner on the lot to make it a tad unique;)

The Beaux Arts Woolworth's and the Streamline Moderne McCrory's sacrificed for the totally unremarkable (and dare we say it, stubby?) Plaza.

Had it not been for Mayor Bill's intervention, the much beloved North Eola District was months away from being cleared for the hope of skyscrapers which may or may not have come (in the same fashion that the duPont Centre lot sat empty for 30 years before netting us apartments that are just this side of suburban. This despite the fact that what makes downtown Orlando special is that our close-in neighborhoods survived the urban renewal of the 1950s-1970s (a fact celebrated by urbanilogists like William Whyte.) That also saved Thornton Park and, likely Lake Lawsona.

That gave us a head start on a walkable downtown that still bedevils places like Tampa.

It also allowed us to keep single family units close to downtown (and some great Craftsman-style houses - yay for buying your house from the Sears catalog as that venerable institution bites the dust!) That in turn allowed us to keep schools and kids close to downtown - something Seattle and San Francisco can only dream of.

Bottom line: it's not a single lot or building but the organic whole that makes Downtown Orlando so interesting compared to other cities. Much of that happened because no one cared about downtown when Orlando boomed - the action was out by Martin, FTU and Disney.

Thankfully, when that changed in the early '80's, Mayor Bill and Jake Stuart (from the Establishment), as well as Craig Ustler and a lot of gay boys and other hipsters in the up-and-comers, fought to give us something special. It was a major reason I came home in 1983.

We will never be a historic theme park like Charleston or Savannah, instead we're something even better: a living, breathing place one can call home. To make that work requires diligence that anything new gives more value than what it replaces. That's why Tremont, which fills a gap more than destroying anything, is a plus in my book.

A long response, I know. But the whole of our downtown is definitely more than the sum of its parts.

I had completely overlooked the San Juan. But then again, that building was damaged beyond repair by fire, so it wasn't exactly demolished just for the sake of putting up what's there now.

As for the Woolworths and McCrory's, I was kind of glad to see that block come down if for no other reason than the lack of height. A block of two story buildings on that site was just unacceptable. Of course, it would've been nice if some developer would've been willing to save the facades and about 10 or 15 feet of the front of each and incorporate them into their design, but I doubt any would have. That was the reason another big high rise development planned for that block was scrapped back in the late 80's. They had to go.

As for your final point, don't worry about that. We don't have anything of any real value left to destroy to make room for something new. Any new construction will just replace empty lots.

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15 minutes ago, idroveazamboni said:

I see from the first rendering in that article that they continue to tweak the design. Cool. :thumbsup:

I also see that they, along with The Daily City, are still using my Photoshop creation.

Too bad I can't ask for royalties. :(

Oh well... :rolleyes:

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I might add that it's a favorite tactic of developers (and, sadly, sometimes the City), to allow historic buildings to sit unmaintained for several years in order to skirt their value.

At that point, they say, "gosh, we'd love to save it but it's just too far gone." It has occurred more than once, both deliberately and otherwise (as if they don't know that failing to maintain an old building for years will have any other result.)

We saw it with Orange Court, the San Juan (exacerbated by a fire,) the Jaymont Block and, most recently, Tinker Field.

Currently, minimal maintenance and overuse as bars and other purposes which put a strain on old facilities is doing the same with the historic core between Pine and Jefferson. Oddly, the City's response throughout Mayor Buddy's 15-year reign is Neumanesque: "What? Me Worry?"

That, of course probably has nothing at all to do with Buddy's support from the downtown bar owners and his general disinterest (shown almost from his inaugural when the bulldozers rolled at the Jaymont Block) in much of anything historic.

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On 7/21/2017 at 4:24 PM, JFW657 said:

So, what is it about the phrase "large swaths of empty space" are you having difficulty understanding?

Yes, in my next post I did specifically reference one and two story buildings, because in my assumption that most people possess the ability to infer the obvious, I didn't ad in the words "and empty lots".

I'm sorry if I confused you. 

As far as your edict commanding what can and cannot be built downtown, I'll try to contact the proper authorities and let them know what the rules are.

Me? I was just expressing my opinion.

card00549_fr.jpg card00517_fr.jpg

I cannot believe they tore this down.  Unbelievable.  I think I'm going to projectile vomit now.  That really irritates me beyond belief.  When did they tear this down?

That's what pisses me off about this place.  There's no history left in this hole.  Nothing except the USPS, History Center, Angebilt & Co., and a few blocks of brick buildings.  And to boot, when you go into places like Citrus Center or Suntrust, et al., they have the audacity to have a diorama showing or reminding or taunting you of what they tore down to build the new building you are inside of.  Orlando has a hard enough time as it is shaking off the stigma of Disney, but it doesn't make it any easier when most remnants of a city that existed pre-Disney are eradicated.

sorry... I'm throwing up now in disgusssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!! blahhhhhhxxxxx

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So what's the whole deal with the Church Street Station? I heard the previous owner of Tremont didn't want to move the station and now the new one does? What does that mean? Are they saying they're going to move Church Street Station to be built into Tremont Tower?

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It's not the bars, per se. It's the lack of investment in the structures. They're just using up the buildings. 

The rent is relatively cheap and the heavy usage will result in an even earlier demise of the buildings. Many of the buildings are already on their last legs and will go the same way as the Jaymont Block if nothing changes.

They also don't create activity "throughout the day," for the most part - they create it at night.

It's also a narrow demographic- mostly the under 25 folks. While that's fine, it would also be nice to see usage earlier in the day like we see in the Ivanhoe District thanks to the antique stores or more general retail like College Park.

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5 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

It's not the bars, per se. It's the lack of investment in the structures. They're just using up the buildings. 

The rent is relatively cheap and the heavy usage will result in an even earlier demise of the buildings. Many of the buildings are already on their last legs and will go the same way as the Jaymont Block if nothing changes.

They also don't create activity "throughout the day," for the most part - they create it at night.

It's also a narrow demographic- mostly the under 25 folks. While that's fine, it would also be nice to see usage earlier in the day like we see in the Ivanhoe District thanks to the antique stores or more general retail like College Park.

I think having all the bars downtown is something that makes downtown in Orlando really cool to be honest. Without them there, our Downtown would be completely different and for the worse in my opinion. 

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1 hour ago, JFW657 said:

Of course, it would've been nice if some developer would've been willing to save the facades and about 10 or 15 feet of the front of each and incorporate them into their design, but I doubt any would have.

 

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

I might add that it's a favorite tactic of developers (and, sadly, sometimes the City), to allow historic buildings to sit unmaintained for several years in order to skirt their value.

At that point, they say, "gosh, we'd love to save it but it's just too far gone." It has occurred more than once, both deliberately and otherwise (as if they don't know that failing to maintain an old building for years will have any other result.)

We saw it with Orange Court, the San Juan (exacerbated by a fire,) the Jaymont Block and, most recently, Tinker Field.

Currently, minimal maintenance and overuse as bars and other purposes which put a strain on old facilities is doing the same with the historic core between Pine and Jefferson. Oddly, the City's response throughout Mayor Buddy's 15-year reign is Neumanesque: "What? Me Worry?"

That, of course probably has nothing at all to do with Buddy's support from the downtown bar owners and his general disinterest (shown almost from his inaugural when the bulldozers rolled at the Jaymont Block) in much of anything historic.

Remember the original proposal for the Dolive?  It was boarded up and actually condemned, and the 15 story replacement was going to use the facade?  Then suddenly, the building's usable as a club and we get Saddle Up.

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39 minutes ago, orange87 said:

So what's the whole deal with the Church Street Station? I heard the previous owner of Tremont didn't want to move the station and now the new one does? What does that mean? Are they saying they're going to move Church Street Station to be built into Tremont Tower?

They're going to rebuild the Sunrail station and incorporate it into the design of Tremont Tower.

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34 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

It's not the bars, per se. It's the lack of investment in the structures. They're just using up the buildings. 

The rent is relatively cheap and the heavy usage will result in an even earlier demise of the buildings. Many of the buildings are already on their last legs and will go the same way as the Jaymont Block if nothing changes.

They also don't create activity "throughout the day," for the most part - they create it at night.

It's also a narrow demographic- mostly the under 25 folks. While that's fine, it would also be nice to see usage earlier in the day like we see in the Ivanhoe District thanks to the antique stores or more general retail like College Park.

I regularly go to bars for lunch when I work from home and many of the downtown office workers do as well.  Downtown works well because there is activity during the day with the offices, and then happy hours, and then the bar scene, so there is really only a few overnight hours where there isn't activity.

I personally have no use for an antique store.  But that's a bad example for me, let's use one more apt to my lifestyle but along the same idea.  Sure, would I like if Track Shack moved into the CBD instead of being up on Mills?  Of course, I want EVERYTHING in the core!  However, I'm still only going to be going there once a year to buy a new pair of shoes.  And they're still closing at 7PM.

I personally find College Park quiet and dull because I have to walk past quiet storefronts to get to a place with activity and people.

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3 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

A long response, I know. But the whole of our downtown is definitely more than the sum of its parts.

 


I loved your loquacious narration of the history. Thanks for the stories and background! 

I am only 4 years here in O-town, but visited many times in years past (downtown, old church street, theme parks, and UCF area, all over the last 30 years). However, you do not really get the local flavor unless you have experienced it first-hand instead of visiting. 

I agree with your assessment that we may have benefitted from the stunted growth allowing neighborhoods to still organically exist in the core with real people walking on the streets and a vibrance not felt elsewhere in Florida. Lake Eola Park, Thornton Park, and Lake Eola Heights make this town great. Big buildings are nice, but the human aspect is paramount. Keep it real and alive, and good things happen. 

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4 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:


I loved your loquacious narration of the history. Thanks for the stories and background! 

I am only 4 years here in O-town, but visited many times in years past (downtown, old church street, theme parks, and UCF area, all over the last 30 years). However, you do not really get the local flavor unless you have experienced it first-hand instead of visiting. 

I agree with your assessment that we may have benefitted from the stunted growth allowing neighborhoods to still organically exist in the core with real people walking on the streets and a vibrance not felt elsewhere in Florida. Lake Eola Park, Thornton Park, and Lake Eola Heights make this town great. Big buildings are nice, but the human aspect is paramount. Keep it real and alive, and good things happen. 

A good mixture of both is what is really needed.

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4 hours ago, orange87 said:

So what's the whole deal with the Church Street Station? I heard the previous owner of Tremont didn't want to move the station and now the new one does? What does that mean? Are they saying they're going to move Church Street Station to be built into Tremont Tower?

Sunrail has a Southbound platform (south of South Street) and Northbound platform at the old Depot.  They are a good Orlando city block apart.  Tremont wants to move the Southbound platform (if I'm understanding them) to the base of their building. 

I don't know how this will be incorporated into the building any more than the FH South station is the the new FH HQ over there.  Maybe they plan to create a spur and bring it in about 20' or so?  "Grand Central" style station per a recent article?  Grand Central is a giant lobby and the trains are underneath in nondescript parking platforms like the rest of NYC's subway stations.  Maybe the lobby of Tremont will be very tall.  But that's my present understanding.

2 hours ago, JFW657 said:

A good mixture of both is what is really needed.

this past Saturday night, after the soccer match between England and France at CWS, downtown was ridiculously packed with people going out.  Church St.  Orange Ave.  It was crazy busy.  People everywhere.  What an asset for downtown.  It was nutz.  We may not have an 863' tall condo named after a Porsche sedan, but we've still got it ala downtown nightlife.  It's awesome.

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I recall a proposal for the Jaymont block that incorporated the existing facades and included a taller highrise behind them. A search for the renderings produced nothing (I even went back to a Yahoo search as their archives tend to produce material from the 90s that dont always appear in Google).

I have those "what could have been" thoughts about this block quite often, all the while recognizing that the cinema and office / residential was a net gain.

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8 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

I recall a proposal for the Jaymont block that incorporated the existing facades and included a taller highrise behind them. A search for the renderings produced nothing (I even went back to a Yahoo search as their archives tend to produce material from the 90s that dont always appear in Google).

I have those "what could have been" thoughts about this block quite often, all the while recognizing that the cinema and office / residential was a net gain.

There never was a rendering or even a design created for that proposal.

The only design for that block that ever made it to rendering/model phase was this one...

jaymont.jpg

As soon as the city told Jaymont they'd have to save the Orange Ave facades and incorporate them, along with about 10 or 15 feet of the storefronts, into their design, they just scrapped it.

Just more "what could have been" thoughts.

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1 hour ago, JFW657 said:

There never was a rendering or even a design created for that proposal.

The only design for that block that ever made it to rendering/model phase was this one...

jaymont.jpg

As soon as the city told Jaymont they'd have to save the Orange Ave facades and incorporate them, along with about 10 or 15 feet of the storefronts, into their design, they just scrapped it.

Just more "what could have been" thoughts.

So, take the City's stance with these guys, on the facade issue, now add in their about face with Kuhn, the midnight bulldozing, and, wala! seems like Chicago politics right here in our little corner of the U.

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20 hours ago, orange87 said:

So what's the whole deal with the Church Street Station? I heard the previous owner of Tremont didn't want to move the station and now the new one does? What does that mean? Are they saying they're going to move Church Street Station to be built into Tremont Tower?

The OBJ had yet another paid article yesterday on this.  There was a rendering.  It's what I thought; the building goes up to the edge of the platform, and that first ground level is pretty tall, and the train parks right up alongside it; just like FH South.  Maybe they'll have a "visor" about 50' up or so overhanging a few feet for partial covering during rains.

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41 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

So, take the City's stance with these guys, on the facade issue, now add in their about face with Kuhn, the midnight bulldozing, and, wala! seems like Chicago politics right here in our little corner of the U.

I think it was more a case of having learned their lesson.

Back then, they thought they could strong arm the developer and force them to comply but got a cold slap in the face when Jaymont said screw you and walked out. As result, the city lost out on huge property taxes and potential economic activity.

Also, I think the facade saving requirement had more to do with either the DDB or the Historical Preservation Board, one or both of which are now either defunct or have had their power scaled back a bit. Somebody else could probably elaborate more on that.

45 minutes ago, Dale said:

Yeesh! dodged a bullet there!

I dunno.

I think it's a reasonably attractive building.

Funny roof notwithstanding.

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