Church Street Plaza | 28-Story Office/Hotel [Phase 1 Under Construction]

[spenser1058]

The HPB still exists but is only as powerful as the mayor who appoints them. Glenda's strong point was neighborhoods and she embraced the HPB. Buddy has done just the opposite. Buddy's Bulldozers came darn close to losing him the support he needed to fight back Rich Crotty's attempt to throw him out of office (it's a wonderful tale of power politics with a heavy dose of karma thrown in - for anyone who loves such tales, let me know and I'll send you a message about it.)

As it turned out, Buddy regrouped (he had enough other positive attributes as mayor that he was forgiven after his mea culpa on Jaymont, as well as abandoning his consigliere's plan to sell off the OUC water division and for casting DPAC into 3rd place on the venues.)

Cameron Kuhn, who actually operated the Jaymont bulldozer, didn't fare so well. After being praised for saving a number of historic buildings downtown, no one in the community came to his aid when he overextended in Jacksonville just as the Great Recession was bearing down.

It's interesting to suggest that block had to go vertical given that directly across the street no one suggested that for the FNB/Kress block (btw, there was never an objection to going vertical on the east side, just a desire to keep two important pieces of our community.)

Jaymont let those buildings rot (unlike the ones across the street), spread the agitprop for years they couldn't be saved and never did much of anything for the community. They've long since disappeared unlike solid players such as Lincoln.

The good news, as praha pointed out, is that we got the movie theater out of the deal which was sorely needed and has been more successful than similar facilities elsewhere in Florida. Local activists like myself learned a lot from that battle and, just like Jane Jacobs, will keep on keeping on.

[prahaboheme]

3 hours ago, JFW657 said:

There never was a rendering or even a design created for that proposal.

The only design for that block that ever made it to rendering/model phase was this one...

As soon as the city told Jaymont they'd have to save the Orange Ave facades and incorporate them, along with about 10 or 15 feet of the storefronts, into their design, they just scrapped it.

Just more "what could have been" thoughts.

Yes - there was a rendering and design. This is not it.

[JFW657]

25 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

The HPB still exists but is only as powerful as the mayor who appoints them. Glenda's strong point was neighborhoods and she embraced the HPB. Buddy has done just the opposite. Buddy's Bulldozers came darn close to losing him the support he needed to fight back Rich Crotty's attempt to throw him out of office (it's a wonderful tale of power politics with a heavy dose of karma thrown in - for anyone who loves such tales, let me know and I'll send you a message about it.)

As it turned out, Buddy regrouped (he had enough other positive attributes as mayor that he was forgiven after his mea culpa on Jaymont, as well as abandoning his consigliere's plan to sell off the OUC water division and for casting DPAC into 3rd place on the venues.)

Cameron Kuhn, who actually operated the Jaymont bulldozer, didn't fare so well. After being praised for saving a number of historic buildings downtown, no one in the community came to his aid when he overextended in Jacksonville just as the Great Recession was bearing down.

It's interesting to suggest that block had to go vertical given that directly across the street no one suggested that for the FNB/Kress block (btw, there was never an objection to going vertical on the east side, just a desire to keep two important pieces of our community.)

Jaymont let those buildings rot (unlike the ones across the street), spread the agitprop for years they couldn't be saved and never did much of anything for the community. They've long since disappeared unlike solid players such as Lincoln.

The good news, as praha pointed out, is that we got the movie theater out of the deal which was sorely needed and has been more successful than similar facilities elsewhere in Florida. Local activists like myself learned a lot from that battle and, just like Jane Jacobs, will keep on keeping on.

I don't think there's even a legitimate comparison to be made between the Woolworth/McCrory buildings and the FNB/Kress buildings across the street in terms of architectural/historical value and significance. Besides, those buildings already have enough vertical to satisfy.

I believe it was pointed out back when the bulldozing was an issue, that the W&M buildings only went "up" (if you can call two stories "up") in the 1940's. So on top of the fact that they were lacking in very much architectural value, they barely had any historical value either.

Certainly it would've been nice if someone had designed a high rise with exterior materials and appearance similar to say, 55 W., which was designed to blend into historic Church St., and which could have incorporated the old facades and blended them in, but that just wasn't the case. Had the city persisted on waiting until they found the "right" developer who was willing to do that, we might have waited another decade or more for that prime corner to realize it's potential as "the corner of Main and Main" as Buddy put it.

[JFW657]

1 minute ago, prahaboheme said:

Yes - there was a rendering and design. This is not it.

Well, if you can produce it, I'll mea culpa.

But I know I followed the goings on there very closely. I clipped every rendering I found out of the paper and saved it. I don't remember ever seeing a rendering or even hearing about a serious proposal for any high rise project on that corner after Jaymont backed out, that incorporated those two facades.

After Jaymont walked, the idea of developing that parcel was basically forgotten about. Soon afterward, Terror on Church St moved in and began operations.

That's the way I remember it.

[prahaboheme]

I don't have to "produce" it for it to be real

[JFW657]

6 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

I don't have to "produce" it for it to be real

Fair enough.

But I don't have to believe you until you do. 

BTW, there was a rendering of a proposed 12 - 14 story hotel on Church St that incorporated the facades of the Cheyanne Saloon and Bumby Block buildings. Basically that entire block.

Maybe that's what you saw and are confusing the two.

This was prior to the restoration and opening of that block.

[prahaboheme]

3 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Fair enough.

But I don't have to believe you until you do. 

BTW, there was a rendering of a proposed 12 - 14 story hotel on Church St that incorporated the facades of the Cheyanne Saloon and Bumby Block buildings. Basically that entire block.

Maybe that's what you saw and are confusing the two.

No - I'm not confused (again)

[spenser1058]

The McCrory's was from the 40's; Woolworth was from the late 20's- early 30's (which makes sense given Woolworth was the pioneer of the dime store business.)

The FNB building was from the 30's; Kress about the same time. 

Not only are the architectural styles different, encouraging their preservation but also their wide use. Long after FNB had been taken over for Valencia's offices and Kress had closed, McCrory's and Woolworth's continued to be popular retail stores (mostly for stuff office workers picked up at lunch after the 60's) but also prime lunch spots (there's a reason the civil rights sit-ins in the South so often took place at dime store lunch counters). That continued well into the '80s so they had value and memories to countless thousands of Orlandoans. Thousands of teenagers after that remember Woolworth as Terror on Church Street. 

The whole "Main and Main" construct was also artificial. The main intersection downtown was Orange and Central (notice where the block demarcation starts? Where do addresses in Orlando run from? It isn't at Church St., it's Central.) In fact, what was actually Main St is now Magnolia.

Again, all of that was propaganda by Jaymont to justify leveling the block and Buddy was happy to buy into it just because it was the project to check off his to do list. It didn't matter to him because historic buildings have never mattered to him (not least because Buddy grew up in Kissimmee and then promptly ran off to Rhode Island to go to school, he had no connection with downtown for years.)

 

[JFW657]

Re: Woolworths and McCrory's, even if they had preserved the facades and used them as either the main entrances to the highrise lobby or if they had been converted to new retail, all the real fond old memories of those buildings would be gone anyway, since they centered around the original interiors. Especially in the case of Woolworths and the lunch counter you spoke of.

Though I would have preferred preserving and re-incorporating them to demolition, I just don't think they were worth discouraging development on that block for however many years it would have taken for someone to finally come along and do it. 

What is there now is preferable to just having the old block sitting there unchanged, housing small businesses.

Re: the "Main and Main" comment, Dyer was speaking figuratively. The real center of activity in downtown is Church Street between Orange and I-4. Now it extends west to the Amway Center and soon, the MEC.

The main intersection in the vicinity of all that is Orange and Church. That corner needed something big and exciting sooner rather than later.

[prahaboheme]

The entire block was worthy of preservation (even in its blighted state in the late 90s). 

McCory's, in particular, was a great example of streamline Art Deco:

[Tim3167]

Sooooo.... is the fence up around the site yet?

[jrs2]

1 hour ago, prahaboheme said:

The entire block was worthy of preservation (even in its blighted state in the late 90s). 

McCory's, in particular, was a great example of streamline Art Deco:

I totally agree.  They should've preserved it.

Wow, so that's where the Ivey's was. 

[spenser1058]

Purchased by the Ivey family in 1944 from Yowell-Drew. They also got the Y-D on Beach St in downtown Daytona at the same time, I think.

It was known as Yowell-Drew-Ivey until the late 50's, I think.

[JFW657]

That pic looks to be circa mid to late 50's.

I bet downtown was a fairly lively place on Friday and Saturday nights back then.

Stores open until 9 or 10 pm. Restaurants and a bar or two doing a lively business.

People out on the streets.

I'd love to travel back in time to that era.

Get a room at the Angebilt and hit the town with a pocket full of money.

[spenser1058]

10 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

That pic looks to be circa mid to late 50's.

I bet downtown was a fairly lively place on Friday and Saturday nights back then.

Stores open until 9 or 10 pm. Restaurants and a bar or two doing a lively business.

People out on the streets.

I'd love to travel back in time to that era.

Get a room at the Angebilt and hit the town with a pocket full of money.

Back in those days, the stores would have closed by 6pm. And, of course, never on Sunday.

It was mostly OK because Mom didn't work and Dad would only be interested in going to Sears to check out the Craftsman tools. If Dad were going, you would have waited 'till Saturday morning and then had lunch at the Morrison's right behind Dickson and Ives on Central and then ice cream at Goff's on OBT unless you were going to the movie at the Beacham.

Edited July 25, 2017 by spenser1058
There were nice restaurants for dinner downtown but more likely were visits to the roadhouses out on Cheney Highway like La Cantina and others with more scandalous reputations.

[jack]

On 7/24/2017 at 0:39 PM, codypet said:

 

Remember the original proposal for the Dolive?  It was boarded up and actually condemned, and the 15 story replacement was going to use the facade?  Then suddenly, the building's usable as a club and we get Saddle Up.

I don't think it was condemned. Kuhn bought it and wanted to build a high rise office building. That was it. 

[Dale]

Even as recently as the 80's downtown had that kind of energy. There were actually arcades on Orange.

[JFW657]

When I first moved here in '81, downtown was was lively enough during the day but after 5 pm it was dead as a doornail for several years.

Total ghost town. I remember going for walks at night and being the only human for as far as the eye could see in any direction. Except for near Rosie's of course.

I remember there was an arcade in the Angebilt where the Subway is now back around '82 - '83.

Other than that, the only one I know of was up on the third floor of The Exchange.

[orange87]

5 hours ago, Tim3167 said:

Sooooo.... is the fence up around the site yet?

Someone from another forum said he went there today and said this:

"There was a medium green fence around the property or a portion of it and a bunch of guys walking around doing what construction dudes do. There were still just a bunch of dudes doing construction stuff. (You know walking around point in this direction and that).

Also, there were no vehicles parked. Only a few delivery trucks near the dumpsters."

[AndyPok1]

Here's my big issue with the Jaymont stuff.  Yes it's historic, and if you're into that type of architecture, great.  But if we want to be treated as a big city, there needs to be something big on that block.  If that was still there, we would feel like a small town.

And lets remember, when those buildings were there, we WERE a small town.  I have an awesome upside-down map framed from the 60s and Ocala is a bigger city than Orlando.  But our downtown should not exude quaintness.  We have Sanford and dozens of other small places for that.  It should exude majesty and all the things that people living in an urban environment in 2017 want.  The Plaza is a good.  Period.  This debate gets rehashed every few years.  So over it.

I'll wander outside of 55 and go grab a pick of Tremont this afternoon.

[JFW657]

45 minutes ago, AndyPok1 said:

Here's my big issue with the Jaymont stuff.  Yes it's historic, and if you're into that type of architecture, great.  But if we want to be treated as a big city, there needs to be something big on that block.  If that was still there, we would feel like a small town.

And lets remember, when those buildings were there, we WERE a small town.  I have an awesome upside-down map framed from the 60s and Ocala is a bigger city than Orlando.  But our downtown should not exude quaintness.  We have Sanford and dozens of other small places for that.  It should exude majesty and all the things that people living in an urban environment in 2017 want.  The Plaza is a good.  Period.  This debate gets rehashed every few years.  So over it.

I'll wander outside of 55 and go grab a pick of Tremont this afternoon.

People talk about Buddy Dyer as some kind of monster who gleefully destroys historic buildings and probably hates puppies and babies. I'm guessing it was a tough call for him, but a practical decision had to be made regarding that block. 

Sometimes you just have to be pragmatic. 

Like you said (and I said earlier) that block needed a major development and it needed it sooner rather than later. It would've been nice had some developer been willing to design a highrise that incorporated those storefronts, but that wasn't likely to happen.

Edited July 26, 2017 by JFW657

[codypet]

I'll add if you look at that historic photo and think about all the buildings that a STILL there, a majority of them still stand.

[jrs2]

On 7/25/2017 at 11:32 AM, prahaboheme said:

No - I'm not confused (again)

So... if that's not the rendering, then what was the design like?  I mean, I can't remember, myself, but I do remember something in the paper, but I don't know.  I do recall early conceptual drawings of the current complex, which was a little taller and different looking (Solaire portion).  But I think I also remember this rendering with the steeple topped building as well a while before even that.

 

4 hours ago, AndyPok1 said:

Here's my big issue with the Jaymont stuff.  Yes it's historic, and if you're into that type of architecture, great.  But if we want to be treated as a big city, there needs to be something big on that block.  If that was still there, we would feel like a small town.

And lets remember, when those buildings were there, we WERE a small town.  I have an awesome upside-down map framed from the 60s and Ocala is a bigger city than Orlando.  But our downtown should not exude quaintness.  We have Sanford and dozens of other small places for that.  It should exude majesty and all the things that people living in an urban environment in 2017 want.  The Plaza is a good.  Period.  This debate gets rehashed every few years.  So over it.

I'll wander outside of 55 and go grab a pick of Tremont this afternoon.

San Diego.  Their Gas Lamp District is untouched for the most part, and the high rises are a little further away from there. 

In Orlando, they just had to put high rises on Orange Ave; not even considering placing them on an ancillary street while preserving the already built up street; or at least recessing them a bit off of Orange Ave.  CNA could have gone up against Magnolia.  Signature Plaza also.  Same with the TV 13 building, but towards the tracks instead.  Copper Whopper towards Magnolia.  Suntrust towards the tracks too.  Etc.,

In Chicago, the CNA and Mid Continental Plaza, built in the Early '70's were recessed off of Michigan Ave.  A few new towers are recessed off of Michigan Ave as well in that same quadrant.  Yes, those buildings they preserved are like 20-25 stories tall each, but that's considered short by their standards.  In a city like Orlando, when most everything historic is demolished, then all people see is plastic, plastic that "was the result of the Mouse," even if that isn't entirely true.  It's what they think in the absence of stuff from the 1920's, 1930's, and 1940's. 

The Plaza is a big fat complex that takes up a lot of space.  In NYC, that same square footage is instead a 600' slender tower with a second condo tower nearby, or, both incorporated into a single tower that's over 700' or 800' tall.  It's like they go out of their way to take up lateral space in Orlando.  It could have been build on top of Court Ave more or less.

I mean, the smartest towers (based on minimizing their footprint) built so far I think are these: Residence Inn, Dynetech/Aspire, CitiTower, Star Tower, 801 N. Orange, maybe Lexington Court Apartments, the new OUC HQ, GAI HQ, The Jackson, The Plaza, 420 Artisan, .  All of those buildings are on top of their parking pedestals.  Next you have buildings incorporated into a parking pedestal with a pool deck, but where the tower is partially on top of the pedestal. 55W, Sanctuary, Waverly, Suntrust isn't at all, Paramount is forgiven b/c it has Publix and basement parking under it.  CNL I or II aren't at all. The Vue isn't at all.  Capital Plaza I & II aren't at all; nor is Wachovia, Gateway Center, Skyhouse, or the blue buildings on Robinson, or Fifth Third Bank.  It is utterly ridiculous the space these parking garages take up when they didn't have to.

The area off of Boone is Parking Garage City.  Same off of Central.  CNL parking, City Hall parking, CNL II parking, Lincoln parking, Suntrust parking, TV 13 Building parking, Jefferson Street Garage.  It's sick.  All of these towers along Orange Ave arguably could have been built in this zone behind Orange Ave while preserving the orange Ave streetscape. 

One more thing.  In Winter Park, about ten years ago, the BOA Bldg on Park Ave- it had that 1960's looking facade.  They retro converted it to a throwback brick facade.  They did that in WP while in Orlando, they bulldozed the Jaymont block.

Yes, I actually edited this post and it IS still this long.

Edited July 26, 2017 by jrs2

[AndyPok1]

I'm not saying there weren't alternatives.  Just from the pictures I've seen, I don't see anything that NEEDED to be saved.  The fact is that Orlando is a young city.  While it's good to save some things from the pre-1960s, I don't believe in saving stuff just because it is old.  

I did some quick googling, but came up empty.  How many cities saved/repurposed their Woolworth's?  If we're an outlier and there's 400 of them around the USA that I just don't know about, then I'll start to reconsider.  But I just don't believe they are that significant.

Anyway, we can move this to coffee house if it really needs to continue.  Fact is that most recent proposals, including the one this thread is nominally about, is going in as infill on ugly parking lots or removing non-contributing buildings.  Life is good here.  Let's focus less on the past and more about our exciting future.

[AndyPok1]

Previous promised picture of Tremont site.  Nothing happening this morning on my way to get breakfast at 4 Rivers.