Providence Road Development

[KJHburg]

Fyi there is a parking deck at Waverly behind hotel and retail and another one will be built behind 2nd office building and wrapped both of them by townhomes.

[Cadi40]

Well this may have been upscale in 2000 but in 2018, I heavily prefer Wavery over Rea Farms, So far at least. However, The retail they put in Rea Farms could change that.

[cjd5050]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

Fyi there is a parking deck at Waverly behind hotel and retail and another one will be built behind 2nd office building and wrapped both of them by townhomes.

Ya.  Waverly is a mullet when it comes to style.  Suburban up front and urban in the back.  

I was thinking of in front of Whole Foods.  If that massive parking lot was replaced with a deck they could continue the 'sense of place' that exists over by Co.  

[Hunted]

14 hours ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

Dude it’s like a Hollywood set, or like Disney world, its so bad.

Reminds me of this news story:

 

[KJHburg]

2 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

Ya.  Waverly is a mullet when it comes to style.  Suburban up front and urban in the back.  

I was thinking of in front of Whole Foods.  If that massive parking lot was replaced with a deck they could continue the 'sense of place' that exists over by Co.  

I know many of you wont like this answer but putting a deck in front of Whole Foods at that location would have been bad from a development standpoint.  That is their anchor tenant and like it or not many suburban shoppers would have not shopped there as frequently with a parking garages throughout the whole complex. The parking garages will be well hidden once the townhomes are built around them aka like at the Lowes in SouthEnd.   In terms of Fenton in Cary which I love the plans for even that Wegmans is visible from the surrounding streets and the lay of the land allows a 1 level deck towards the main road but it will be visible still.  Been to Avalon in Alpharetta too it is more dense but still you can see the main anchors from the main road out front.  It does have a larger hotel and larger office building than Waverly but the suburbanites around there (which I know a few) love it.  I went there when the Panthers played in ATL and on a Dec. night after Christmas it was packed beyond belief.    People in the suburbs like walkable places as well even if they have to drive there.    Waverly and Rea Farms Village is in a sense urban Charlotte for those in Weddington Waxhaw Marvin Wesly Chapel and a huge swath of south Charlotte.   RFV will be very successful I can assure you.  

[cjd5050]

7 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

I know many of you wont like this answer but putting a deck in front of Whole Foods at that location would have been bad from a development standpoint.  That is their anchor tenant and like it or not many suburban shoppers would have not shopped there as frequently with a parking garages throughout the whole complex

3

I am fine with Waverly now.  Just thinking 10-15 years down the road is all...

[Cadi40]

In 10-15 years you won’t be able to get down that swath of Providence due to traffic.

[kickazzz2000]

25 minutes ago, Cadi40 said:

In 10-15 years you won’t be able to get down that swath of Providence due to traffic.

You already can’t.  485 interchange needs a diverging diamond asap.

[go_vertical]

In 10 to 15 years there's no telling where shopping habits will be. And within that time frame there will most likely be plans for a remodel of the whole thing.

I don't understand the huge expectation to have a suburban shopping center to be visually stunning and incredibly urban in nature. Sure, it would be great but it isn't needed. People that are living out in these far flung suburbs simply want decent options nearby and will throw their money at it so long as the anchors are to their liking. Developers know this and that's why they're not unnecessarily blowing their money on it. It's gonna get the business regardless.

[deleted]

14 minutes ago, go_vertical said:

In 10 to 15 years there's no telling where shopping habits will be. And within that time frame there will most likely be plans for a remodel of the whole thing.

I don't understand the huge expectation to have a suburban shopping center to be visually stunning and incredibly urban in nature. Sure, it would be great but it isn't needed. People that are living out in these far flung suburbs simply want decent options nearby and will throw their money at it so long as the anchors are to their liking. Developers know this and that's why they're not unnecessarily blowing their money on it. It's gonna get the business regardless.

Theoretically, you could say the same thing about urban design (and that might explain the mediocre designs we are seeing in Uptown and SouthEnd).  I live in Weddington and while parking and convenience are great, I would personally be more inclined to patronize a well-designed project than something that isn't.  However, I ultimately go to Lowe's because I need home supplies (and not the building's design, as you stated).  I don't think that it's wrong to expect more from developers though and generally I think that Waverly is decent (B-).  As a consumer, I have no problem shopping or eating there.  As a resident or tenant in the office building, I'd be less inclined to choose Waverly (as a true mixed-use development) based on the current design.  Baxter and Birkdale are better.. 

Edited May 8, 2018 by JBS

[KJHburg]

In 10-15 years from now there might be a 10 story apartment tower in front of Whole Foods at Waverly.  Actually office tenants are choosing Waverly over Ballantyen and their new anchor tenant for the 2nd office building The Remi Group is moving from Ballantyne because as they stated they can walk to shops and restaurants on lunch breaks and having a hotel within walking distance too.

Kingsley at Baxter is a mixed use community but the rest of Baxter the older section has one small commercial area and the rest is just residential in various forms.  Kingsley is very nice as is Birkdale Village. Waverly has a lot more residential and retail than Kingsley.  

[cjd5050]

21 hours ago, go_vertical said:

In 10 to 15 years there's no telling where shopping habits will be. And within that time frame there will most likely be plans for a remodel of the whole thing.

I don't understand the huge expectation to have a suburban shopping center to be visually stunning and incredibly urban in nature. Sure, it would be great but it isn't needed. People that are living out in these far flung suburbs simply want decent options nearby and will throw their money at it so long as the anchors are to their liking. Developers know this and that's why they're not unnecessarily blowing their money on it. It's gonna get the business regardless.

First off, the homes out in the 'far flung suburbs' as you put it are pretty much the same as the suburban-style homes located a mile from uptown.   Let's check the arrogance that people close to the city are living an urban lifestyle.  They still have the 4bed 3500 s/f home on a half acre.  It's just closer to uptown.  

I am one of those people living in the 'far flung suburbs' and disagree with you.  There are lots of reasons why people move to the suburbs.  Some value their kids education or maybe they don't work in Uptown.  To describe people who live out here as you do is pretty rude.   People want places to go to and enjoy their surroundings.   Waverly has a wonderful section call the Terrace that's great to spend time in before/after eating at the places down by that part of the project.  However, if you want to get some frozen yogurt at Menchie's Waverly provides a couple of benches with a view of a parking lot.  

Waverly did some great things with this project and some bad things.  If your suggestion that we suburbanites will accept anything and be happy for it was true, the entire project would have looked like the Whole Food section.  

20 hours ago, KJHburg said:

In 10-15 years from now there might be a 10 story apartment tower in front of Whole Foods at Waverly.  Actually office tenants are choosing Waverly over Ballantyen and their new anchor tenant for the 2nd office building The Remi Group is moving from Ballantyne because as they stated they can walk to shops and restaurants on lunch breaks and having a hotel within walking distance too.

Kingsley at Baxter is a mixed use community but the rest of Baxter the older section has one small commercial area and the rest is just residential in various forms.  Kingsley is very nice as is Birkdale Village. Waverly has a lot more residential and retail than Kingsley.  

I could actually see a couple of mid-rise office buildings fronting Providence based on the success of the other commercial space.  It's a pretty good location with access to the 485.  

Edited May 9, 2018 by cjd5050

[go_vertical]

I'm having trouble seeing anything I said as rude. I didn't "describe" anyone as anything. I'm not suggesting the suburbs deserve a hot slab of asphalt with a wal-mart plopped down. I don't think this development is bad at all. In fact, I think it looks pretty good. All I was saying is that people who have moved out to places like Waxhaw among others are itching for nearby, quality shopping options. Developers know there is a pent up demand and therefore I don't see why they would spend more money than they need to on over the top, jaw dropping architecture and uber premium materials like it seems like some want. Suburban retail design is cyclical in nature. What looks good today might not in 15 or so years. This could very well go through some sort of refurbish/redesign by then so why put up granite or marble etc? (I know that hasn't been suggested but *hopefully* you see my point.) Also keep in mind that a vast majority of shoppers aren't picking apart every aspect of a development like we do here. 

I haven't put anyone in a box and to suggest otherwise is simply projection. I'm sorry to say that you have read my post entirely wrong. I never once suggested suburbanites will accept anything and "far flung suburbs" was in no way meant to be a disparaging remark. If that is how you read it then maybe you need to have an internal conversation about how you feel about the 'burbs. I have no issue with the suburbs or the people that live in them. It's really annoying how more and more often things that are said on here has to turn into a flash point. Please, put your preconceived notions aside and reread my post. You might just pick up what I was actually saying.

[cjd5050]

Doubling down eh?

Most rude people don't understand how they are being rude. I also don't have any issue with where I live.  I have lived the whole spectrum of situations from real urban cities (unlike Charlotte) to far flung burbs and would gladly make the same choice to live where I do.  

You made claims about what people you don't know want and it was obvious that mixed in with your thinly veiled insult was a large lump of ignorance.   You implied that because of where we live we will be happy with an inferior project.   If you did have any understanding of what it's like out here on the prairie you did you would also know that Waverly is closer to South Park than it is to Waxhaw.

You were projecting your opinions of us far flung folk and were called out on it.  But it's ok...nobody is going to try and turn your car into a minivan or ask you to join our country club.  We don't bite and your uppity hipster sensibilities are fully intact.  

 

[southslider]

On 5/8/2018 at 12:39 PM, cjd5050 said:

Ya.  Waverly is a mullet when it comes to style.  Suburban up front and urban in the back. 

Because it fronts friggin Providence Rd (16).  Even Baxter Village has highway services near the highway (160). Birkdale has parking along its highway (73). And Metropolitan has a Wendy's (off 277).

Edited May 9, 2018 by southslider

[go_vertical]

31 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

Doubling down eh?

Most rude people don't understand how they are being rude. I also don't have any issue with where I live.  I have lived the whole spectrum of situations from real urban cities (unlike Charlotte) to far flung burbs and would gladly make the same choice to live where I do.  

You made claims about what people you don't know want and it was obvious that mixed in with your thinly veiled insult was a large lump of ignorance.   You implied that because of where we live we will be happy with an inferior project.   If you did have any understanding of what it's like out here on the prairie you did you would also know that Waverly is closer to South Park than it is to Waxhaw.

You were projecting your opinions of us far flung folk and were called out on it.  But it's ok...nobody is going to try and turn your car into a minivan or ask you to join our country club.  We don't bite and your uppity hipster sensibilities are fully intact.  

 

Why do you insist in putting negative connotations in my mouth. I haven't said a single negative thing about the suburbs. You're the one calling it the prairie. You are trying to create an argument that isn't there. Where have I said that suburbanites would be happy with an inferior product? I didnt. I even said I like the project. Is my jaw dropping in awe? No. I'm guessing you can't get past me saying that people will throw money at this. That is not a negative statement. It is just a choice of words that clearly you can't get over. Well guess what, I also think people in South End and surrounding areas will throw money at Atherton once it's open. Does that mean I think those people are backwards as you seem to think I feel about the burbs? Hell no. And where you have lived or do live has zero bearing on anything that has been said here because I. Havent. Said. A. Damn. Thing. About. The. Suburbs. Or. Its. Residents.

I never made any claims about what people want or don't want. So where is the insult? The focus of my post was on the developer and why I think they aren't going gang busters on high design and super premium materials. And yes, I have the same opinion on many projects near the core. There are very few retail projects that stop me in my tracks anywhere. That's my opinion which I am allowed to have. Again, that opinion has nothing to do with the people that patronize those establishments.

You don't know anything about me so stop acting like you have me figured out. You know what I think is uppity? Sticking your head up your ass and ignoring what someone is trying to say to you all while thinking you're going to school them on what they think. Seriously let it go. There is nothing there for you to get angry about.

[cjd5050]

11 hours ago, go_vertical said:

You don't know anything about me so stop acting like you have me figured out. You know what I think is uppity? Sticking your head up your ass and ignoring what someone is trying to say to you all while thinking you're going to school them on what they think. Seriously let it go. There is nothing there for you to get angry about.

You're right.  I know you just about as much as you know the wants/needs of people who don't live near you.  My 2nd post did contain a bit of snark but I stand by the general direction.  Here, again, is what you said:

"People that are living out in these far flung suburbs simply want decent options nearby and will throw their money at it so long as the anchors are to their liking. Developers know this and that's why they're not unnecessarily blowing their money on it. It's gonna get the business regardless."

Those are your words.

1 - Waverly isn't in the far flug suburbs.  As I said before, it's closer to South Park than Waxhaw.

2 - People who live out here don't just simply want anything.  You can live near the 485 and want/demand good development.

3 - We are not so eager for anything that we will just throw out money at places simply because they exist.  I, like many of my neighbors, would rather drive to a sense of place than go to the closest option.

4 - Waverly is going to get business but it's not going to be as good as it can/should be and eventually the businesses not named Whole Foods are going to suffer from facing a parking lot. It will eventually become another Stonecrest or Promenade on Providence.  Which is a missed opportunity and be a mix of big anchors that always stay busy coupled with others that don't.  

There is an unwarranted sense of elitism in the region when it comes to the perception of where you live.   It absolutely exists here.   Yes, there are freeways near my house and they are expanding but it's not like the 'core' of Charlotte is winning any urbanist awards for how it was built out or how it exists today.  

If a poor development that misses the mark on creating sense of place can't be discussed here without being told 'you'll like it because it's what you get'...then where exactly can that conversation happen?

 

Edited May 10, 2018 by cjd5050

[cjd5050]

12 hours ago, southslider said:

Because it fronts friggin Providence Rd (16).  Even Baxter Village has highway services near the highway (160). Birkdale has parking along its highway (73). And Metropolitan has a Wendy's (off 277).

I'm sorry.  I didn't read the rule that if a project fronts a major road it can't put buildings fronting the roads...  I know that's how Charlotte loves to do things but it's the wrong way.  It's done differently elsewhere and that's what should be done here.  At least that's my opinion on it.  

I was watching a video the other day on the perception of weight.  They put 5 objects in front of someone and asked them to rank them in order.  The largest object felt the lightest but in fact it was the heaviest.  Our eyes deceive us.  

At Waverly you have a hotel, residential and office space.  Less than a half of a mile on the other side of Providence you have a shopping plaza and then Rea Farms behind that.  That distance is nothing and people on foot should have no problem crossing the road.  There are multiple intersections with generous walk times.  But the sad truth is people won't.  Their eyes will deceive them and the thoughts of crossing two massive seas of parking will be too much.  So Waverly might as well be on an island.  

On the other side of Stonecrest there is a new hotel.  They wanted to reduce their parking because they felt guests were likely to use services like Uber and walk to Stonecrest.  It was Clair Fallon who ripped this idea apart as if it would be impossible for someone to cross Rea Road with 'packages' as she put it.  

This mindset of either that's how things are done or that can't be walkable is bad.  It's bad for today and it's even worse for the future.   In 15 years people are going to think of 'inside the 485' similar to how they think of 'inside the 277' today.  Not the same but similar.  Projects need to be planned for the future not the past.  

 

[go_vertical]

52 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

You're right.  I know you just about as much as you know the wants/needs of people who don't live near you.  My 2nd post did contain a bit of snark but I stand by the general direction.  Here, again, is what you said:

"People that are living out in these far flung suburbs simply want decent options nearby and will throw their money at it so long as the anchors are to their liking. Developers know this and that's why they're not unnecessarily blowing their money on it. It's gonna get the business regardless."

Those are your words.

1 - Waverly isn't in the far flug suburbs.  As I said before, it's closer to South Park than Waxhaw.

2 - People who live out here don't just simply want anything.  You can live near the 485 and want/demand good development.

3 - We are not so eager for anything that we will just throw out money at places simply because they exist.  I, like many of my neighbors, would rather drive to a sense of place than go to the closest option.

4 - Waverly is going to get business but it's not going to be as good as it can/should be and eventually the businesses not named Whole Foods are going to suffer from facing a parking lot. It will eventually become another Stonecrest or Promenade on Providence.  Which is a missed opportunity and be a mix of big anchors that always stay busy coupled with others that don't.  

There is an unwarranted sense of elitism in the region when it comes to the perception of where you live.   It absolutely exists here.   Yes, there are freeways near my house and they are expanding but it's not like the 'core' of Charlotte is winning any urbanist awards for how it was built out or how it exists today.  

If a poor development that misses the mark on creating sense of place can't be discussed here without being told 'you'll like it because it's what you get'...then where exactly can that conversation happen?

 

Where in the hell did I say Waverly? Can you please tell me? You can't because I didnt. The reason why I didn't is because I wasn't talking nor thinking about Waverly at all. End of story. News flash, there are other areas outside of 485 that will patronize this development, and many of them are further out than Waverly. These are the areas that i was referring to. You have created this narrative about what I said and now your overblown ego won't allow you to let it go.

I never once acted like I knew what people want or need unless you count where I said people want "decent options nearby". Tell me, is that not true then? I would imagine everyone wants decent shopping options nearby no matter where they live.

"it's not like the 'core' of Charlotte is winning any urbanist awards for how it was built out or how it exists today."

Yep, pretty sure I didn't suggest anything of the sort anywhere in my posts. In fact I have said nearly identical thing's elsewhere if you were to take the time and review my post history.

"'you'll like it because it's what you get'"

Again, never said anything like this. We absolutely can have a discussion abut development. In fact we were until you came along and turned it into a childish arguement.

This will be my last post on this because it's clear you are going to hear whatever you want to hear. One last time, you have read my posts wrong. You are absolutely entitled to your opinions,but I DID NOT say what you are insisting I said. 

[southslider]

2 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

This mindset of either that's how things are done or that can't be walkable is bad.  It's bad for today and it's even worse for the future.  

Walking comfort along the thoroughfare is the limiting factor.  Most development doesn't have enough critical mass and sizable frontage (ideally both sides) to change the walking experience along a highway arterial.  A stroad-like highway can be too much for any good urban design to overcome. 

 

[cjd5050]

50 minutes ago, southslider said:

Walking comfort along the thoroughfare is the limiting factor.  Most development doesn't have enough critical mass and sizable frontage (ideally both sides) to change the walking experience along a highway arterial.  A stroad-like highway can be too much for any good urban design to overcome. 

2

I guess, sadly.  It's just a shame because of the amount of opportunity that exists.  Would be pretty silly for someone live at the Waverly townhomes and drive to Lifetime Fitness but sadly that just might happen. 

 

[SgtCampsalot]

The sad truth is that the City (or, heck, a future municipality if this area secedes!) would need to implement serious traffic calming and ped improvements for Providence Rd to be truly "walkable." And residents would have their pitchforks in-hand if they even hinted at such a change.

[Third Strike]

After the new Harris Teeter in Rea Farms opens, what’s going to happen to the one that’s facing Waverly? Anybody know what’s going to go there?

[Cadi40]

32 minutes ago, Third Strike said:

After the new Harris Teeter in Rea Farms opens, what’s going to happen to the one that’s facing Waverly? Anybody know what’s going to go there?

A family member of mine that lives in Waverly heard a rumor of a Publix. Knowing that Publix is a company that likes to reuse old store structures I could see that happening. 

[KJHburg]

1 hour ago, Third Strike said:

After the new Harris Teeter in Rea Farms opens, what’s going to happen to the one that’s facing Waverly? Anybody know what’s going to go there?

Yes the old Harris Teeter will be bulldozed most likely or temporarily turned into another non grocery store.  The whole shopping center is on leased land that is owned by the Rea family who owned the land the new Rea Farms Village is going up.  The plan is to incorporate this shopping center into Rea Farms Village at some point in the future but I can assure you it would not be another grocery store there.