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The State of Higher Education in Charlotte


cltbwimob

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2 hours ago, Rufus said:

I'm sorry but I have to combat this post. For one thing, Kansas City probably includes both UMKC, KU, and KSU in it's overall numbers since both KU and KSU are not that far from KC. Secondly, I want to point out Indy as another city to not compare to since IUPUI is essentially co-funded by the two major public research institutions in the state and include the IU health campus too.

Yea, that is a fair point about medical schools and that certainly highlights why Charlotte needs a real one. That said, my read on the report is that the data are collected by MSA, Lawrence is not part of the KC MSA and Manhattan is more than 100 miles away from KC. If they are including schools at that distance in their calculations then Charlotte's numbers would include Clemson, USC, Wake (and their med school), UNCG, A&T and possibly Chapel Hill. 

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2 hours ago, Rufus said:

I'm sorry but I have to combat this post. For one thing, Kansas City probably includes both UMKC, KU, and KSU in it's overall numbers since both KU and KSU are not that far from KC. Secondly, I want to point out Indy as another city to not compare to since IUPUI is essentially co-funded by the two major public research institutions in the state and include the IU health campus too. This all boils down to one major thing: STATE FUNDING. 

You want to know why Sacramento, Tampa and Orlando all have exceeded UNC Charlotte? Because California and Florida both shoveled money in UC Davis, USF, and UCF. All three have medical schools, burgeoning into massive research engines. If the state of North Carolina could distribute the wealth properly rather than just to UNC Chapel Hill and NC State, UNC Charlotte could gain some traction. UNC Charlotte still does a lot with essentially pennies. 

And again, not to challenge, but VCU has a massive medical school that has been able to gain a ton of federal research and state dollars. All of these schools all have medical schools or some sort of health sciences school associated with them. That, plus state funding, is the largest difference here. 

If memory serves me correct, and it's been a while since I looked at the numbers, the Medical school at VCU accounts for approximately half of the research dollars.  Other schools such as dentistry and pharmacy also get some research dollars, but it is relatively minor compared to the med school.  Still even if 60-70% of the dollars go to the medical school and the allied health professions schools, that means somewhere in the range of $90-110mil is accounted for by schools outside those involved in healthcare.  Imagine if UNCC received $90-110 mil per year in research grants.  I think last year was the 1st time in history it surpassed $50mil.

You are very much correct to bring up the point that the UNC system as a whole treats UNCC as a pariah amongst its larger universities, and tends to pump money into the UNCCH/NC State juggernauts leaving the rest of the system to scrimp for every last dollar.  That is certainly not UNCC's fault, and shame on the system for not being better about funding the school.  The school also at least until recently had zero alums on the board(don't know if they do now or not).  Again not UNCC's fault.

All that said, my biggest problem with UNCC is that the administration seems perfectly content to play second or third chair to the likes of UNCCH/NCSU and even in some ways lags behind ECU and NCA&T (I.e ECU has a med school, NC A&T has a more comprehensive engineering school in terms of number of majors offered).   Taking engineering as an example, the school has consistently, in its 5 year plans and other documents, mentioned developing new courses of study including environmental engineering, bioengineering,  chemical engineering, as well as adding Masters and PhDs in systems engineering and computer engineering.  Yet since 2007, the only true engineering degree to enter the formal planning process is the PhD in civil engineering.  Other schools get the same treatment.  They've  talked about adding a PhD in applied physics, a PhD in urban and regional economics, and a PhD in data science.  Yet not one of these has entered the formal planning process, and they've mentioned some of the above (including the engineering degrees) as far back as 2011.

 Herein lies my problem.  The administration seems to be the type of administration that will not throw a pebble in the water for fear that it might cause a ripple.  They just don't appear to be fierce advocates for the advancement of the University.  They seem to  do the bare minimum amount of work to promote UNCC and its interest beyond endless building campaigns and touting that its the fastest growing university in the system.  Perhaps the iron thumb of the UNC BOT is a crushing weight to operate under, and perhaps many of the degrees they would like to add would simply be rejected by the system for fear that they might compete with programs at the ever so precious flagship universities. However,  the admin won't even take the initiative to submit plans to add much needed research heavy STEM programs in order to give the system the chance to reject them.  And trying to get something really big like a med school or a law school, you can forget it. If they won't throw a pebble in the water for fear of it causing a ripple, they certainly won't throw a boulder in.  

If UNCC just added the programs mentioned in its five year plans and other degree planning documents (i.e.  Those listed above), my guess is that $100+ mil of research grants would be well within reach-no medical school needed.  The research funding and the additional STEM degrees could go a long way in anchoring a more robust knowledge economy than what we current have.

Edited by cltbwimob
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12 hours ago, cltbwimob said:

You are very much correct to bring up the point that the UNC system as a whole treats UNCC as a pariah amongst its larger universities, and tends to pump money into the UNCCH/NC State juggernauts leaving the rest of the system to scrimp for every last dollar.  That is certainly not UNCC's fault, and shame on the system for not being better about funding the school.  The school also at least until recently had zero alums on the board(don't know if they do now or not).  Again not UNCC's fault.

All that said, my biggest problem with UNCC is that the administration seems perfectly content to play second or third chair to the likes of UNCCH/NCSU and even in some ways lags behind ECU and NCA&T (I.e ECU has a med school, NC A&T has a more comprehensive engineering school in terms of number of majors offered).   Taking engineering as an example, the school has consistently, in its 5 year plans and other documents, mentioned developing new courses of study including environmental engineering, bioengineering,  chemical engineering, as well as adding Masters and PhDs in systems engineering and computer engineering.  Yet since 2007, the only true engineering degree to enter the formal planning process is the PhD in civil engineering.  Other schools get the same treatment.  They've  talked about adding a PhD in applied physics, a PhD in urban and regional economics, and a PhD in data science.  Yet not one of these has entered the formal planning process, and they've mentioned some of the above (including the engineering degrees) as far back as 2011.

 Herein lies my problem.  The administration seems to be the type of administration that will not throw a pebble in the water for fear that it might cause a ripple.  They just don't appear to be fierce advocates for the advancement of the University.  They seem to  do the bare minimum amount of work to promote UNCC and its interest beyond endless building campaigns and touting that its the fastest growing university in the system.  Perhaps the iron thumb of the UNC BOT is a crushing weight to operate under, and perhaps many of the degrees they would like to add would simply be rejected by the system for fear that they might compete with programs at the ever so precious flagship universities. However,  the admin won't even take the initiative to submit plans to add much needed research heavy STEM programs in order to give the system the chance to reject them.  And trying to get something really big like a med school or a law school, you can forget it. If they won't throw a pebble in the water for fear of it causing a ripple, they certainly won't throw a boulder in.  

If UNCC just added the programs mentioned in its five year plans and other degree planning documents (i.e.  Those listed above), my guess is that $100+ mil of research grants would be well within reach-no medical school needed.  The research funding and the additional STEM degrees could go a long way in anchoring a more robust knowledge economy than what we current have.

I didn't want to quote your whole post, but there were parts that I wanted to break down further too. 

But to your larger point, as an alum of the university, I am embarrassed by Phil Dubois and his insistence on not rocking the boat. It is obscene that this man has managed to stay at the university for as long as he has. He fought tooth and nail against football, until the student body and alums were backing him into a corner. Even with that, he still maintained an arms length to it and the athletics dept., allowing Judy Rose to drive that program (essentially one of the few revenue drivers for the university) into the proverbial ground. When it came to CSOL closing, he refused to comment on the possibility of UNCC gaining another professional school. And let's not even go to the medical school conversation, where Dubois has consistently managed to deflect and cower against the larger powers that be. 

It surprises me how unbalanced the BOG is to the entire UNC system. We used to have a member on it, but now we do not. In fact, more than half of the 17 campuses do NOT have a member on the BOG. Which I find entirely sad. I have nothing against UNC Chapel Hill or NC State. Both are amazing institutions, deserving of all the accolades that they receive. But, they had 100 years at least ahead of everyone else, and it shows. Charlotte, for its part, has done nothing but pump its chest in hopes of making noise, but doing nothing to actually produce any relationship to the university. 

I guess it makes my love for UNC Charlotte greater because I am product of the university, and I have managed to rise up in my own career. I also know what amazing work is going on at the university that remains unnoticed by others. I mean, outside of the US, the world recognizes UNC Charlotte as an Up and Coming school. It's amazing that our own backyard neglects us so. 

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3 hours ago, Rufus said:

I am embarrassed by Phil Dubois and his insistence on not rocking the boat. It is obscene that this man has managed to stay at the university for as long as he has.

I feel like you are ignoring the state of the university when Dubois first came in.... context changes everything.

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23 hours ago, Scribe said:

I feel like you are ignoring the state of the university when Dubois first came in.... context changes everything.

On the contrary, under Woodward the university became a doctoral granting university, upping its status as a research university. He also oversaw the creation of the CRI campus, and was influential in making sure Charlotte had a major university. 

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I know the history of UNC Charlotte, I went there under Woodward!

You cannot have a respectable research university without a respectable doctoral program. That is what I meant by context. Woodward made sure the doctoral programs were introduced. Now Dubois is working on establishing the research programs.

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5 hours ago, Scribe said:

I know the history of UNC Charlotte, I went there under Woodward!

You cannot have a respectable research university without a respectable doctoral program. That is what I meant by context. Woodward made sure the doctoral programs were introduced. Now Dubois is working on establishing the research programs.

Ha! My apologies. I do see some movement within the research capacity at the university, but I do still believe Dubois has slowly become more of a hindrance to the university. Just my opinion, and no need to rehash it. That all being said, UNCC is still growing leaps and bounds, both in terms of students and infrastructure, but also in research. I think this Exponential Campaign will do a lot for the university to develop a lot in-house so that even more research dollars can be procured. 

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53 minutes ago, Rufus said:

I do still believe Dubois has slowly become more of a hindrance to the university.

Dubois has been there for 13 years, the longest a Chancellor has served was Woodward @ 16 years (I think), so I do believe that Dubois' time is running out.

But I do want Dubois to get credit where he deserves it...

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Dubois has been a disappointment to me.  Sure he's had some triumphs in his tenure, but overall I'm just not really convinced that he is the advocate the University needs occupying the Chancellor's office.  I think he really had an opportunity to put his neck out on the line and try to take the University to the next level twice in the past 2 years and really failed on both accounts-once when CSOL closed and once with the push for a medical school.  

With respect to the law school his stated reason for not pushing the issue is that there just isn't a market for attorneys right now.  While that may be true nationwide in a general sense, I imagine there is certainly a local market for lawyers given the fact that the region has 2.5 million inhabitants and a mega corporate presence dominated by financial institutions.  In my recent job search in Charlotte I came across an untold number of legal/compliance openings around the area, many of which were related to the finance industry.  Plus there is no shortage of individuals in the Charlotte area looking to go to law school.  A few years ago CSOL had nearly 1200 students enrolled-the largest school in NC at the time-and that's with CSOL's exorbitant pricing.  Imagine how many would be knocking down the door to attend if UNCC with its superior affordability (and the fact that it is a reputable institution as opposed to a for-profit) had a law school, especially if it had a part time option like CSOL.  I believe the "no market for attorneys" bit was little more than a Phil Dubois cop out.

As for the medical school, despite his initial resistance to the idea it looked for a while as if he might come through on this one.  Last year around February he was having conversations with the powers that be about creating a joint school with UNCCH which would have been a good first step, and he was writing about it in nearly all of his monthly updates.  Then once the Atrium deal came along all progress seemed to stop and not a word from Phil since, at least not in official communiques.  He is quoted as of this February in a local paper stating that a medical school won't happen any time soon.  So that seems to be the end of that story.  

Then there's the whole name change thing which he roundly dismisses pretty much every time it's mentioned even though ( at lest  my sense is) most of the student population wants the change so that the University isn't continually confused with Carolina.

Granted I know he's somewhat restrained in how much he can make happen due to the BOG, but it just doesn't seem like he's really interested in bolstering the University's stature.  With respect to football, supposedly he was dragged to the table kicking and screaming.  With respect to the medical school, once again he was at least initially hesitant and now seems to have given up.  With respect to the name change idea he seems to fight the student wishes.  With respect to the law school, he just seems to make excuses that are fairly suspect.  

At some point, listening to the Chancellor make excuses for why the school can't do a and b and c, or seeing his signature along with the Dean of the Chapel Hill medical school on a letter stating that the city of Charlotte already has a medical school in reference to  the UNC nominal satellite campus as opposed to drumming up support for a UNCC med school, you really start to wonder if he really does have the University's best interest at heart.  To me he comes off as a lackey for the Chapel Hill crowd, and it really makes me wonder exactly why he's  being paid ~$400K/year.  This is sad to me because I believe the school has so much potential, and I believe he and his entourage are holding it back.

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  • 3 weeks later...

UNC Charlotte has the 3rd highest number of foreign students in NC after NC States 5604, Duke's 4022 and UNCC comes in with 2980 foreign students beating UNC Chapel Hill with 2089.   This was this weeks Triangle Business Journal and approx. half the students stay in the state to work. 

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41 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

UNC Charlotte has the 3rd highest number of foreign students in NC after NC States 5604, Duke's 4022 and UNCC comes in with 2980 foreign students beating UNC Chapel Hill with 2089.   This was this weeks Triangle Business Journal and approx. half the students stay in the state to work. 

5604 is pretty impressive, I would like to see the degree track of those students, I would be willing to wager that the majority are engineering majors. 

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  • 3 months later...

Comparison of NC Colleges and Universities by Endowment

N.B.:  Figures are latest available online with dates indicated (largest to smallest)

A.  Endowments Greater than 1 Billion

Duke                                             $ 7.9B          (2017)  

UNC Chapel Hill                    $ 3.9B          (2016)

NCSU                                            $1.35B       (2018)

Wake Forest                              $1.141B   (2016)

B.  UNC System Universities with < 1B Endowment

UNC Greensboro                $251.8M        (06/2014)

East Carolina                         $207.9M        (10/2012)

UNC Charlotte                     $181.5M        (08/ 2014)

UNC Wilmington                 $98.11M       (2015)

Appalachian                           $ 94.643M    (06/2015)

Western Carolina               $66M               (06/2016)

UNC Asheville                       $40.5M          (06/2016)

UNC Pembroke                    N.A.

C.  Other Charlotte Area Colleges & Universities

Davidson                                  $780.9M       (2018)

Queens Univ.                         $100M           (2016)

Johnson C. Smith                 $51.1M         (05/2006)

Wingate Univ.                       $48M

CPCC                                          $16.7M

Belmont Abbey                    $8.02M          (2014)

Pfeiffer                                      N.A.

N.B.:  School with Charlotte-based satellite campuses, such as, Johnson and Wales University and Northeastern Univ. are part of larger universities whose main campuses are located in Providence, RI, and Boston, respectively.  Endowment figures for those universities do not break down the endowment figures for their Charlotte-based campuses.

 

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56 minutes ago, QCxpat said:

Comparison of NC Colleges and Universities by Endowment

N.B.:  Figures are latest available online with dates indicated (largest to smallest)

A.  Endowments Greater than 1 Billion

Duke                                             $ 7.9B          (2017)  

UNC Chapel Hill                    $ 3.9B          (2016)

NCSU                                            $1.35B       (2018)

Wake Forest                              $1.141B   (2016)

B.  UNC System Universities with < 1B Endowment

UNC Greensboro                $251.8M        (06/2014)

East Carolina                         $207.9M        (10/2012)

UNC Charlotte                     $181.5M        (08/ 2014)

UNC Wilmington                 $98.11M       (2015)

Appalachian                           $ 94.643M    (06/2015)

Western Carolina               $66M               (06/2016)

UNC Asheville                       $40.5M          (06/2016)

UNC Pembroke                    N.A.

C.  Other Charlotte Area Colleges & Universities

Davidson                                  $780.9M       (2018)

Queens Univ.                         $100M           (2016)

Johnson C. Smith                 $51.1M         (05/2006)

Wingate Univ.                       $48M

CPCC                                          $16.7M

Belmont Abbey                    $8.02M          (2014)

Pfeiffer                                      N.A.

N.B.:  School with Charlotte-based satellite campuses, such as, Johnson and Wales University and Northeastern Univ. are part of larger universities whose main campuses are located in Providence, RI, and Boston, respectively.  Endowment figures for those universities do not break down the endowment figures for their Charlotte-based campuses.

 

UNC Charlotte getting the short end of the stick, lower budget than schools way smaller than us, how are we supposed to become world class if we cant get properly funded. We definately have the lowest per capita funding out of all state schools

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^ and are largely a function of the wealth of the alumni base. Since UNCC is a relatively young institution it lacks the multiple generations of alums that places like Chapel Hill, Davidson and that podunk yankee academy in Durham have.

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It should also be noted that the Duke Endowment is a constant annual cash flow for Duke and Davidson, and to a lesser extent JC Smith. I don't believe any other UNC institutions are major recipients/beneficiaries.  I will say that the NCGA is not doing UNC institutions any favors in their fundraising efforts, especially out-of-state.

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