The State of Higher Education in Charlotte

[KJHburg]

Reflecting on Bonnie Cone on her birthday today the founder of UNC Charlotte.

https://inside.uncc.edu/news-features/2020-06-22/female-leadership-celebrates-miss-bonnie-her-birthday

[videtur quam contuor]

I was at a luncheon for scholarship recipients and community invitees at UNCC in early '00's and all the previous chancellors attended. James Woodward presided and said, as he surveyed the head table, that it was a unique situation to see every previous head of the university since its formation joining him on this special occasion. Bonnie was there though frail. She was, as always, the center of attention.

[davidclt]

Don't know if this should fall under State of higher education or bad news but it would appear Provost Norris has asked the UNC system chancellors under the direction of system president Randy Ramsey to draw up budgets with 25% and 50% cuts. It would appear our state's university system is in the process of being gutted.

http://www.ncpolicywatch.com/2020/07/17/pw-exclusive-unc-system-exploring-worst-case-scenario-budget-cuts-of-up-to-50/

 

[tozmervo]

I have assumed that there's a UNC shoe out there waiting to drop. Systems across the country are having to make significant cuts, and there was no reason to believe UNC wouldn't be affected. 

Having said that, I think percentages that high are definitely drawing out worst case scenarios. I have heard that fall enrollment numbers appear to be very strong, but this past spring cost a lot of money. 

[KJHburg]

To continue the conversation about a medical school and law school in Charlotte.  I think the answer lies both with Wake Forest.  Obviously the med school is coming.  But Wake at one time back in 2007 or so discussed opening a branch of their law school here.  And yes like @QCxpat I do think we need a law school option in town.  And in my book Wake Forest is the one to do it.  They already have a presence here with their MBA program why not a law school with professors coming down a few days a week from Winston a quick jaunt south to the QC.    With the financial complexities of the finance and banks here a prestigious law school like a branch of WFU would be good.  The huge business community here in Charlotte dwarfs any other city in either Carolinas and a supply of legal talent is important.  

actually it might have Queens University that once proposed a law school here but I do think Wake would be great and a lot less costly to start up. 

Edited August 12, 2020 by KJHburg

[RugbyPike#11]

I think a part-time law school option from one of the universities in the Carolinas would make a lot of sense. WFU, UNC, or even USC-East (business school has a Charlotte part time MBA) could set up a part time program. It’s much better, IMO, to leverage the reputation of an established law school than for Queens to set up a new school or for someone to try to set up a for-profit like Charlotte School of Law. 

[atlrvr]

I def think Wake is the logical choice.  2 of the 3 professional degrees (MBA and Medical) will be here, so go for the trifecta.  I know it's not that simple, but politically, it is easier for a private university as opposed to a public school to pull it off, and given the size of market, shared resources, and outrageous tuition, I'd assume it makes financial sense.

It's also the 3rd highest ranked law school in NC and SC, so I'd suspect it would have the support of the local business and legal community (maybe financial support as well).

[Desert Power]

43 minutes ago, atlrvr said:

I def think Wake is the logical choice.  2 of the 3 professional degrees (MBA and Medical) will be here, so go for the trifecta.  I know it's not that simple, but politically, it is easier for a private university as opposed to a public school to pull it off, and given the size of market, shared resources, and outrageous tuition, I'd assume it makes financial sense.

It's also the 3rd highest ranked law school in NC and SC, so I'd suspect it would have the support of the local business and legal community (maybe financial support as well).

I have a dream of a combined MBA/Law School build on Levine land near UNCC...

[Nick2]

I've talked to some people at USC about expanding their presence in Charlotte. They just built a brand new business school, law school, and are in the process of building a new med school down in Columbia.

There is a huge interest in expanding their MBA program uptown and potentially working towards something that actually resembles a satellite campus. Perhaps this could include a law school.

[kermit]

* UNCC does have a second uptown building on the books. I believe it will be mostly for the MBA program. Donors were lined up pre-covid, but were mostly from the RE industry so I expect that is on hold at the moment.

What happened to the Queens law school that was going into the federal courthouse building? While I am sure the covid budget crises in higher ed has killed it, I thought that they were planning for an alternative location back when the feds decided to remodel the courthouse.

Edited August 14, 2020 by kermit

[KJHburg]

32 minutes ago, kermit said:

* UNCC does have a second uptown building on the books. I believe it will be mostly for the MBA program. Donors were lined up pre-covid, but were mostly from the RE industry so I expect that is on hold at the moment.

What happened to the Queens law school that was going into the federal courthouse building?

Queens: I think therecession hit as this was discussed I think around 2007/2008 and they decided not to do it at all.     I think either Wake Forest or USC would be good fits as unfortunately I have no hope of a state supported law school in Charlotte even though it would make sense.   But I do think Wake is the best option as they could run classes here and have some up in Winston and they could make it work. 

Edited August 14, 2020 by KJHburg

[Cityplanner]

There are already way too many law schools in the US--and way too many mid-tier ones.  If all law schools ranked below 100 in US News closed, and no new law schools opened, that would be a good starting point.  Charlotte does not need a law school.  Nor does anyone need a new law school.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Cityplanner

[kermit]

^ without wading in on the vocational need for law schools I will say that the economic development benefits of a law school are very low. Conversely,  a well-funded medical school will bring astronomical r+d spillover benefits. A med school arguably has a higher economic impact than any other academic activity, perhaps even higher than any other type of job cluster on a per-job basis.

Edited August 15, 2020 by kermit

[Cityplanner]

I don't know enough about med schools or the medical profession to comment on a med school, but I would agree about a law school's benefits being low.  I'd even say that a law school's overall effects would be negative, in that it would crank out new lawyers when there is already an oversupply, particularly for graduates of schools below the top 25 or so, so salaries would go down.

But even if Yale opened a branch in Charlotte, I don't see the economic benefits.  

Lawyers go where the jobs are and the location of a law school isn't important (people fly around to job interviews); law schools and having a lot of lawyers in a place don't really create wealth or economic growth. 

Edited August 14, 2020 by Cityplanner

[kermit]

UNCC will make the call on pulling the plug on in person instruction by "mid-next week" (classes start on the 7th). The university did push housing and tuition payment deadlines back.  This was after an all faculty meeting this morning where they spent 2 hours discussing what the university has done to facilitate in person learning. The precipitating event to the university's change in opinion was NCSU's decision to switch to online only instruction on Monday in response to a rapid spike in cases reported today.

I don't really understand how intelligent people can pretend that residence-based college life could go well at this point (or even back in mid June). The amount of effort and taxpayer dollars wasted on pretending that in person education could happen safely is mind-boggling. The depth of our collective incompetence in managing everything about this crises is just appalling.

https://chancellor.uncc.edu/messages

Meanwhile on the tweeter:

 

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by kermit

[Nick2]

23 minutes ago, kermit said:

UNCC will make the call on pulling the plug on in person instruction by "mid-next week" (classes start on the 7th). The university did push housing and tuition payment deadlines back.  This was after an all faculty meeting this morning where they spent 2 hours discussing what the university has done to facilitate in person learning, reading between the lines I did not get the sense that any of the administrators believed in person instruction could actually work. The precipitating event was NCSU's decision to switch to online only about an hour ago.

I don't really understand how intelligent people can pretend that residence-based college life could go well at this point (or two months ago). The amount of effort and taxpayer dollars wasted on pretending that in person education could happen safely is mind-boggling.

The dept of our incompetence in managing everything about this crises is just appalling.

https://chancellor.uncc.edu/messages

 

It's asinine for any college to have full in person learning or on campus residential housing. USC is only offering courses if there is an option to be completely virtual via zooming into the lectures. But I guess these colleges want to wait until things start going downhill before they close down. I mean hell, the ACC and sec are going to have an actual football season.

It will only get real once it's widespread enough for everyone to personally know someone who was hospitalized as a result of covid.

[Blue_Devil]

I am just curious as to what happens to Student Research, and Stem research over the next 2 years. There is going to be a lack of juniors and Seniors familiar with lab settings shortly. The current crop will be graduating. 

[kermit]

1 hour ago, Blue_Devil said:

I am just curious as to what happens to Student Research, and Stem research over the next 2 years. There is going to be a lack of juniors and Seniors familiar with lab settings shortly. The current crop will be graduating. 

No one knows. They might have had a much better idea about how to rectify some of this deficit if they had planned for online instruction all summer rather than forcing through in-person.

Graduate education (and associated lab work) does appear to be progressing in person on most campuses.

Edited August 20, 2020 by kermit

[Blue_Devil]

1 minute ago, kermit said:

No one knows. They might have had a much better idea about how to rectify this deficit if they had planned for online instruction all summer rather than forcing through in-person.

Graduate education (and associated lab work) does appear to be progressing in person on most campuses.

Yes, the grad work does seem to be fine, and there will be a pool of graduate for the next two years. Its the Freshman and Sophomore labs and those kids getting experience. There is no in home chem lab.

[KJHburg]

2 hours ago, Blue_Devil said:

Yes, the grad work does seem to be fine, and there will be a pool of graduate for the next two years. Its the Freshman and Sophomore labs and those kids getting experience. There is no in home chem lab.

there are in home chem labs but if you start one I will have to make a citizens arrest.   sometimes those things go KABOOM 

[nicholas]

I am a UNCC student.  I'd definitely be disappointed if the semester was moved entirely online, but I do understand why it might happen.  My summer classes were much less enjoyable compared to my pre-Covid spring ones, as it's very difficult to be engaged in class when the lectures are pre-recorded, discussions are done solely through discussion boards, and no one gets to know each other.  One of my classes this summer was especially difficult in this regard because I could not get a grasp of what the professor was looking for in papers and other homework, despite discussions outside of class.

I do still wonder about this past spring though, because there were several weeks in February when close to half of the students in all my classes were absent.  I don't know if it was Covid, but it was definitely something, and it hit me pretty hard.

[Spartan]

50 minutes ago, nicholas said:

I am a UNCC student.  I'd definitely be disappointed if the semester was moved entirely online, but I do understand why it might happen.  My summer classes were much less enjoyable compared to my pre-Covid spring ones, as it's very difficult to be engaged in class when the lectures are pre-recorded, discussions are done solely through discussion boards, and no one gets to know each other.  One of my classes this summer was especially difficult in this regard because I could not get a grasp of what the professor was looking for in papers and other homework, despite discussions outside of class.

I do still wonder about this past spring though, because there were several weeks in February when close to half of the students in all my classes were absent.  I don't know if it was Covid, but it was definitely something, and it hit me pretty hard.

 

This is why I think the predictions about everyone working remotely forever are overblown.

[allthingsplanes]

So I wanted to respond to some of the comments about frustrations with universities trying to make it work in-person.  I definitely understand all of the concerns and have many mixed feelings about the whole situation.  But I wanted to just bring forward a perspective that I don't think is recognized often enough in these conversations.

Universities as a whole, but especially auxiliaries within like housing, dining, parking, etc, are like businesses.  They have operating expenses that have to be paid for.  Their revenue sources generally come from 1 of 3 things - tuition and fees, government, or donors.  Universities that go online still get all 3, though in some cases they've seen reductions in tuition as students opt to take a year off or go elsewhere, and of course many of the fees don't apply.  That said, for all of the faculty screaming/protesting about not wanting to teach in-person, they will continue to get paid no matter how they're delivering their content.

However, auxiliaries who depend on students being ON CAMPUS, are only making a small fraction of their annual revenue.  Let me be clear, at a school like UNCC, there are no other revenue sources.  Particularly if the government can't reach a deal and offer up some more relief money.  So expenses are still present - and for the most part don't drop that much when factoring in debt payments and the fact that the buildings (in the case of housing) are still here and still need maintenance - and can only be paid for through use of reserves.  

What we are facing right now is not only draining all of our reserves that would be used for future renovations or construction (meaning we won't have any for a long time) but also STAFF.  Again, like other businesses, when we don't have any revenue, it likely means that it will cost staff jobs.  And this will hit disproportionately at lower-wage, oftentimes non-white, staff.  

I could go on (for quite a while) but for now I'll just say - for all of the people who say that the choice is clear and schools are being callous for trying to hold in-person classes, you're wrong.  In fact, you couldn't be more wrong.  We care a TON - not just for the students but especially for our staff.  We have worked HARD for the past 4 months trying to prepare for this moment.  And guess what?  On our campus very few employees or students who have been on campus all summer (and through the spring) have gotten sick.  So it is possible and it's not just sending staff to their death.  I hope at least some of you can appreciate this perspective.

[kermit]

^ I agree with your points and I do understand that the business side of universities need to be taken into account. Your post was a helpful reminder to me. As someone who works in a university and has a daughter in college, I really do understand the importance of getting back to campus.

Having said that, I'll offer a counterpoint. Universities are scientific organizations. The mission of every university is to teach people how to interpret data and evidence and act on it appropriately. In the case of the pandemic the evidence is pretty overwhelming that the university environment will contribute to the spread of coronavirus. In the case of UNCC we now have direct observations from VERY similar settings (UNC CH and NCSU) which confirm that the basic science does apply to this university setting in this place. When universities ignore science (e.g. reopening with dorms at 100% occupancy, reopening without testing on arrival, etc.), they are failing in the most basic aspect of their mission -- they can't effectively teach science while they ignore it in practice.

The economic dilemma here (that universities gotta make a dollar) is a sad illustration of how the US as a whole has responded in the crappiest possible way to the pandemic. Had the country actually shut down, implemented mask mandates, and provided financial assistance to the businesses impacted by these shutdowns (including universities), then we would have been largely clear of the virus (like nearly all of the rest of the developed world) months ago. The statement that "universities need to open so they can continue to exist" is an incredibly sad situation and an indicator that our leaders at the federal and state levels have completely failed us. We (workers, universities, small business, local government, transit organizations,  etc.) should not be bearing the brunt of the financial cost of the federal government's incompetent response to a pandemic which was predicted and known many months in advance. 

Edited August 21, 2020 by kermit

[nicholas]

I received an email earlier this week saying that "UNC Charlotte and other System institutions will proceed as planned with on-campus instruction."