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cltbwimob

The State of Higher Education in Charlotte

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Some enrollment numbers for UNCC:

UNC Charlotte (2015):

Undergrad: 22,732

Graduate: 5,251

Total: 27,983

The previous year's enrollment:

Undergrad: 22,216

Graduate: 5,022

Total: 27,238

In comparison, we are now third in the number of graduate students, and third in the amount of undergrad students. We are still number four in regards to overall enrollment. It actually surprises me that UNCC could one day surpass UNC Chapel Hill as the second most populous college in North Carolina.

UNC System Enrollment

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On 10/24/2016 at 11:45 AM, birky said:

 

 

Wouldn't expect the joint program with the CSL to continue for much longer (for good reasons).

Can confirm there are plans for an MS in Architecture which will really be a modification of something they already offer. There are also talks about a PhD in Civil Engineering, but nothing has been approved. Master of Science in Management was just approved for the Business School, which will be a Center City program for students with UG degrees in non-business disciplines. The B School also added a DBA (Doctor of Business Administration) for next academic year (@ $28,000 a year). There is a new MS in Cyber Security starting in Spring 2017. There is a new PhD in Educational Research, Measurement , and Evaluation as of this year. I would be beyond shocked if a PhD in Physics was added (or really if a PhD in Liberal Arts & Sciences were added at all).

With regards to a Med School, I know there is interest within the community, but there are two major roadblocks: 1) the school's endowment and 2) CMC and/or Presby have to be on board, and they are not.  The amount of resources they would have to add is enormous.

I'm guessing this is what you hinting at?

https://www.charlotteagenda.com/72784/charlotte-school-law-put-probation-admitting-unqualified-students/

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^^^I am hoping that as the school crumbles, which I fully expect it to given the Gainful Employment rules and now this, that UNCC is able to take over the school.  

CSOL and The other Infilaw schools are among the biggest scams in education, offering their students a fourth tier legal education at Duke prices. While UNCC may never be able to bring the school to the first or second tier, at least they could make it affordable.  As a comparison NCCUs law school's tuition is somewhere  in the range of $6,000 per year and I'm sure UNCC could make tuition similarly affordable vs the $40,000+/year costs of CSOL.

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No, this is news to me. All I can really say, and let me be clear that I am not directly involved in this in any way so please take with a grain of salt, but as I understand it UNCC has determined the joint programs are not in the school's best interest. Probation from the ABA certainly reinforces that sentiment.

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5 minutes ago, cltbwimob said:

^^^I am hoping that as the school crumbles, which I fully expect it to given the Gainful Employment rules and now this, that UNCC is able to take over the school.  

CSOL and The other Infilaw schools are among the biggest scams in education, offering their students a fourth tier legal education at Duke prices. While UNCC may never be able to bring the school to the first or second tier, at least they could make it affordable.  As a comparison NCCUs law school's tuition is somewhere  in the range of $6,000 per year and I'm sure UNCC could make tuition similarly affordable vs the $40,000+/year costs of CSOL.

Honestly, I wouldn't expect anything like this from UNCC in the near future. It's more likely that Wake expands their existing options in Charlotte to include an option for their JD.

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I agree w birky, I can't see UNCC plunging into this in the current budget and political climate -- although a governor Cooper would change the composostion of one third of the UNC system boards. Queens seems like a much better fit, assuming their endowment would premit such an expansion. 

Given CSL's baggage I think the most likely scenario is that it just disappears into bankruptcy. Law school faculty are a dime-a-dozen and it has no other assets (like a building) worth purchasing.

Edited by kermit
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8 minutes ago, birky said:

Honestly, I wouldn't expect anything like this from UNCC in the near future. It's more likely that Wake expands their existing options in Charlotte to include an option for their JD.

Well, Phil Dubois is quoted in a local newspaper in 2014 as saying that he hopes for UNCC to have a law school someday, and according to members on this board, there were discussions a few years ago between UNCC and CSOL regarding a takeover by UNCC.  I don't suspect it would be hard to rekindle those  discussions, especially if UNCC could get the school at a fire-sale price.

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I think it does have substantial (if un-bookable) assets....kids in their 1st and 2nd years will be very sticky.  So they have hundreds of kids willing to keep writing big checks for a few more years, with minimal branding effort.

The curriculum and professors while might be viewed as dime-a-dozen, but recreating the wheel is still not cheap.

Wake Forest taking over would be a huge win for Charlotte, but I agree that Queens is the more likely partner.

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I don't think it's possible for UNCC to absorb CSL. That is generally not how public institutions operate.  If UNCC were to open a law school, it would have to be approved through the UNC Board of Governors, there'd need to be adequate funding, a hiring process for faculty and staff, any students would need to go through the admission process, etc, etc.  There's a ton that has to happen behind the scenes for this sort of addition.

It's far more likely that CSL goes in bankruptcy and closes, and then a university like Wake (with an existing law program), hires some faculty for a cohort program in Charlotte.

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1 hour ago, birky said:

I don't think it's possible for UNCC to absorb CSL. That is generally not how public institutions operate.

While not common it's been looked at before.  University of California San Diego looked to merge with Cal Western Law School about 6 years ago.  The merger was put on hold due to cuts in funding and pension concerns.  The biggest difference here was/is Cal Western is in the black.  

 

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Stuff like that just reinforces my opinion of for-profit education. Charlotte needs a law school and med school based out of UNCC. That's the only practical way to make it work.

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12 hours ago, Spartan said:

Stuff like that just reinforces my opinion of for-profit education. Charlotte needs a law school and med school based out of UNCC. That's the only practical way to make it work.

I 100% agree.  Education is one of those areas in which a profit motive tends to worsen outcomes.

 Infilaw will probably want to unload this school ASAP as the underlying assumptions of its business model-full ABA accreditation and continued student access to financial aid-are now invalid.  As such, I suspect UNCC could get CSOL in a fire sale.  Then they could right the ship by ending predatory recruiting practices, raising admissions standards, restoring accreditation, and reducing tuition/expenses significantly.  UNCC would get a first professional program at a rock bottom price; students would be associated with a respectable institution, students would have access to a much more affordable law education (based on other law schools in the UNC system, I suspect tuition/expenses would be no more than 10k per year vs 50k-60k now); and Charlotte would have a proper law school...A win all around.

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While it may be nice to think uncc would ride in as a shining knight, it has to be more complex than that. Others on this forum have mentioned issues which exist in Raleigh and it just isnt that easy. 

Also, consider the lease of property they now occupy and its desirability, the amount of liability assumed by absorbing the dirty name and potential litigation from current stdents, alumni, etc...

IF uncc decided to open a law school (with the blessing of the unc system), why bring on the mess of csl?

In my business, a fire sale is a blessing and a curse. There is a reason why things didnt work out, and you must know as much as possible before pulling the trigger.

Btw....no full time grad degree at uncc can be had for 10k a year. Nor can the unc system provide such. The unc law school is around 24k, and the cheapest in state is central, at 18k. I cant imagine they would do it for less than 20k.

Most of the students at csl had requirement issues elsewhere, hence the problem situation they currently find themselves in. Some, however, enrolled due to convenience. Some have practiced and started successful careers. Just not that many. That does lend itself to your point....charlotte needs a law school (quality school).

 

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3 hours ago, Ilm2clt said:

While it may be nice to think uncc would ride in as a shining knight, it has to be more complex than that. Others on this forum have mentioned issues which exist in Raleigh and it just isnt that easy. 

Also, consider the lease of property they now occupy and its desirability, the amount of liability assumed by absorbing the dirty name and potential litigation from current stdents, alumni, etc...

IF uncc decided to open a law school (with the blessing of the unc system), why bring on the mess of csl?

In my business, a fire sale is a blessing and a curse. There is a reason why things didnt work out, and you must know as much as possible before pulling the trigger.

Btw....no full time grad degree at uncc can be had for 10k a year. Nor can the unc system provide such. The unc law school is around 24k, and the cheapest in state is central, at 18k. I cant imagine they would do it for less than 20k.

Most of the students at csl had requirement issues elsewhere, hence the problem situation they currently find themselves in. Some, however, enrolled due to convenience. Some have practiced and started successful careers. Just not that many. That does lend itself to your point....charlotte needs a law school (quality school).

 

I think the concept is more like "ideally, this is how it should be set up." Obviously there are plenty of reasons/explanations of the political realities and financial realities, but I think a public institution is better equipped to add degree programs in a successful way because they have the infrastructure to do so. Just count me on the side that thinks a the largest public university in the largest city in NC should be able to provide for the educational needs of its entire population. 

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Looks like Charlotte School of Law is putting up 175,000 sq ft of their 250,000 sq ft Charlotte Plaza office as a sublease saw this today. So they are majorly shrinking their real estate footprint. 

Interesting about this space and the rate someone like a Paypal for example and just an example could get an uptown location at a great price as the lease runs through 2026. When Paypal considered Charlotte before their space in the University area was a sublease from Red Ventures however that space is now leased. Just a thought. 

 

Edited by KJHburg
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Just FYI: this degree planning stuff isn't secret information. It's published on the University's website: http://provost.uncc.edu/curriculum/planning

"Request to plan" means given the green-light for the academic department to plan out what that degree program would look like, and obviously the request to establish is the actual OK to create the program.

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^ and after the request to plan is complete any other UNC system campus can (esentually) veto the proposal if they believe it to be too much competition. Data Analytics is probably fine, CE may get some pushback.

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