The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[Jamie Hall]

I have always suggested that Briley Parkway should be labeled I-265 to encourage the bypassing of downtown by traffic to and from I-65 north. But I don't know if that will ever come about.

A big stretch of Briley would seem to qualify for interstate status since it lacks signals and traffic interruptions. Not sure why it isn't I-265 already. Maybe Gaylord is opposed?

[captainwjm]

Didn't they try to ban 18 wheelers from 440 but the Feds said no.

Way back, there was a proposal to limit truck traffic on "the 440 Parkway" as a compromise offered by opponents seeking to block construction on this route. I was on the legal team for the opponents. That proposal was rejected and litigation ensued.

Among our arguements was that 440 wouldn't solve the downtown congestion, and that a loop route further to the south would be better suited for the supposed purpose of 440 (we suggested Old Hickory Blvd.). 20 years later, TDOT suggested 840.

Edited January 6, 2015 by captainwjm

[smeagolsfree]

PHofKS said the real problem was the interchange at 24 and Brickchurch Pike. The entire interchange is a cluster.

[volsfanwill]

PHofKS said the real problem was the interchange at 24 and Brickchurch Pike. The entire interchange is a cluster.

I was not familiar with that intersection so I just looked at it on google maps, 

wow, the only similar exit I can think of is Cedar Bluff in Knoxville. but it is not that bad with the adjacent road.

[smeagolsfree]

I think the option would be to redo the exchange to a full clover leaf and close the Brick Church pike entrance and exit.

[Nathan_in_DC]

A big stretch of Briley would seem to qualify for interstate status since it lacks signals and traffic interruptions. Not sure why it isn't I-265 already. Maybe Gaylord is opposed?

 

Signing a highway as an interstate opens you up to a whole new level of federal regulations and design rules that you otherwise don't have to abide by if the road is just signed as a state highway.  Now, re-numbering it to SR 265 might not be a bad idea, like was done with 840. Something that gives drivers a mental clue what its purpose is (ie, a beltway).  But, I can totally understand not wanting to try and get federal approval to give it interstate status: that may just open up a can of worms the state doesn't want, or can't afford.

 

Simply being a multi-lane controlled access motorway doesn't automatically fulfill federal guidelines.  They impact bridge construction, design of interchanges, paving standards, signage and markings standards, etc., that can be very expensive to implement.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Nathan_in_DC

[MidTenn1]

Way back, there was a proposal to limit truck traffic on "the 440 Parkway" as a compromise offered by opponents seeking to block construction on this route. I was on the legal team for the opponents. That proposal was rejected and litigation ensued.

Among our arguements was that 440 wouldn't solve the downtown congestion, and that a loop route further to the south would be better suited for the supposed purpose of 440 (we suggested Old Hickory Blvd.). 20 years later, TDOT suggested 840.

 

As I remember, the primary reason for choosing the 440 location was the availability of an abandoned railroad right of way. This made acquisition of property much more feasible and less expensive. 

 

Also, Governor Lamar Alexander, determined the need for 840 and not TDOT. On the night of the announcement that the American Toyota plant would be awarded to Kentucky instead of Tennessee in the 80's, Gov. Alexander got a large map of the state of Tennessee, put it on the floor of the Governor's Mansion and drew up a new road system that would help attract industry like Toyota to Tennessee. The roads were all access controlled or 4-lane divided. They stretched from Jackson to Dyersburg, Chattanooga to Rockwood, and many more and one long one (840) from Waverly to Manchester to near Cookeville. I saw the map the next morning and heard the entire story first hand of how it came to be.

 

TDOT did eventually reduce the size of 840 to its current length and location. Alexander got a sales tax increase to fund all these projects and most have been long completed. State Route 840 was not built as part of the Interstate program so it could be built to lesser standards and more quickly.

 

Still waiting on the auto plants.

[Nathan_in_DC]

Still waiting on the auto plants.

 

Like Nissan, GM, and Volkswagen?  Tennessee has done quite well for itself in attracting automotive industry in the last 25 years, considering what it started from.

 

Back on track though, it's crazy thinking of an 840 that goes from Waverly to Manchester to Cookeville.  I grew up in Perry County, and my family is all from Waverly, and cannot imagine what those counties (Perry and Humphreys) would look like if they were near the terminus of a Middle Tennessee-wide expressway loop.

[smeagolsfree]

Question for you guys on this thread. Would you mind if we added parks and green ways to the discussion here. It was just a thought. No biggie, I will leave it up to you.

Thoughts

[CenterHill]

Question for you guys on this thread. Would you mind if we added parks and green ways to the discussion here. It was just a thought. No biggie, I will leave it up to you.

Thoughts

Or...I've thought about suggesting a separate thread just on urban landscaping topics. Parks and greenways, but also streetscaping, the state of urban trees (or need for), pocket parks, rain gardens/water runoff, green roofs, vertical gardens, NES tree cutting. community planting events and the like. Generally a catch all for discussion on how Metro, developers, and private property owners are doing on making our city greener and more attractive. What would you think about that?

[smeagolsfree]

Some of that may belong in the coffee house. I was gearing more towards the bike lanes, green ways and the parks.

Your passion is right on target and some of that should be discussed in this thread, like roadside lighting, landscaping, sidewalk needs.

I do think the green topics may need to go into the coffe house, but I will rely on you all to keep that discussion going there.

One other thing I want to do is get a 100o or so business cards made up to hand out to other folks that have an interest in the built environment. I can give the cards out at the forum meets so everyone can get them. I have been asked a number of times for a card in conversations with folks on the street or at construction sites, etc.

With the cards, we will be able to spur interest in those topics that were mentioned above too.

[Nathan_in_DC]

Sounds good to me. Bikeways and whatnot are certainly a transportation issue.

[miami1855]

The telling part of this map is that I-24 W/E from Clarksville is the only "spoke" shown that extends at 2 lanes all the way into Nashville. Most of the others widen at or before the Davidson Co. line. I don't mind the 2 lanes in and out of Clarksville as much as the awful one lane merge onto I-65. And now, with the construction, that merge is a daily nightmare.

 

Regarding the need for additional lanes on some of the Interstate 'spokes' radiating out of Nashville, I calculated a rough estimate of the actual demand to capacity ratio. For the demand, I used the TDOT traffic maps and for capacity, I used the old traffic engineering rule of thumb that a freeway lane can move 1,800 vehicles per lane per hour giving a total of 7,200 vehicles for a four lane freeway. Assuming the peak hour volume is roughly 10% of the ADT (Average Daily Traffic), I developed this map (the red lines represent 4-lane freeways).

 

 

My comments are:

 

• Some of the heaviest potential delay is not where you would expect. Instead it is on I-65 to the Kentucky border and I-40 from Mt. Juliet to SR 840. And because Kentucky has widened I-65 from the Tennessee border to north of Bowling Green, it would make a lot of sense to widen the section from Goodlettsville to the border first, creating a 6+ lane freeway from Franklin, 100 miles north to Bowling Green.
• Anything over 50% should be considered 'in need of widening'. While most of the locations are below capacity, any non-recurring incident (traffic collision, road construction, special event traffic) can change that in a big way in a hurry. 
• Most traffic volumes are actually decreasing, as much as 10% to 20% over the last decade. Some like I-24 to Murfreesboro are still increasing however.
• TDOT's budget is decreasing yearly and has to be stretched statewide in order to build 4-lane highways to nowhere in other parts of the State. This is not TDOT's preference, but merely the reality of politics. Call your congressman if you are unhappy.

TDOT has, however, aggressively pursued installing an ITS (Intelligent Transportation Systems) infrastructure that will help 'operate' the roadways and reduce the impact of non-recurring congestion (more on that later).

 

In summary, I don't see a lot of freeway widening happening in light of the political situation in Tennessee and at the Federal level.

[CenterHill]

Some of that may belong in the coffee house. I was gearing more towards the bike lanes, green ways and the parks.

Your passion is right on target and some of that should be discussed in this thread, like roadside lighting, landscaping, sidewalk needs.

 

 

Thanks.    I realize the angle you're shooting for with parks and greenways on this thread are in the transportation context.    I certainly think that's a great fit and this is an appropriate thread to discuss bikeways, sidewalks and other alternative transportation modes.

 

I hesitated to use the word "green" (even though I did) because that suggests another area (ethics of green building) that isn't at all my focus.      Where I was coming from is a discussion on the architecture and design of projects and infrastructure to include thoughtful landscape elements.    With so many projects, landscaping is clearly an afterthought, or was never even taken into account (e.g., how did the Bridgestone Arena (a public project) and the Encore condos (a private development) both get built without including one single sidewalk tree?).      Anyway, these are the issues that I'd like to explore in a separate thread.    I'll tee something up later in either coffee house or in unpinned and see where it goes.    

[smeagolsfree]

I use to travel to Atalanta for a landscaping company I worked for and would take pictures of the flowers and designs they did at a lot of the suburban office buildings. Some were pretty elaborate. In the urban core, however they're was never any landscaping or flowers. It was just steel and concrete which is cool too.

I understand a lot of the green concepts such as rain water harvesting, permeable pavers,etc. there is also a lot of work being done in harvesting the excess water that come off the A/C systems. Amazing how much water comes out and that can be reused for the green rooftops.

[Vrtigo]

An interesting TEDx talk on solving traffic problems and how Stockholm succeeded in eliminating most of their rush-hour congestion:

 

Jonas Eliasson: How to solve traffic jams

 

I recall back during the AMP debate there was some discussion of how de-incentivizing the conventional one-person-one-car model is one of the only ways to get people to favor transit. This would be a great way to do just that and I think make a huge difference here as well.

 

I wish Nashville was progressive enough to even attempt something of this nature. Alas...

Edited January 13, 2015 by Vrtigo

[Neigeville2]

An interesting TEDx talk on solving traffic problems and how Stockholm succeeded in eliminating most of their rush-hour congestion:

 

Jonas Eliasson: How to solve traffic jams

 

I recall back during the AMP debate there was some discussion of how de-incentivizing the conventional one-person-one-car model is one of the only ways to get people to favor transit. This would be a great way to do just that and I think make a huge difference here as well.

 

I wish Nashville was progressive enough to even attempt something of this nature. Alas...

 

I liked this vid; it's a city I've always wanted to visit.  Of course with their public transit practically everyone in Stockholm has a real choice. Nashville has a ways to go to make the public system attractive or even basically usable to people who aren't forced by sheer economics.  

 

Since they're on islands they also have an ideal geography to enforce the fee, with a few bridges leading to the central district. I wonder how this has worked in London, where the charge is over 11 pounds a day.  

[HGMIII]

Wonder how much longer 65N between Trinity & Dickerson Pike will take.  North of 24 is looking pretty good.  The barrier walls are up almost 100%, the base foundation for the new lanes has been poured on both sides.  

 

Southbound still has some major work to do, fix the 24W exit from 65S, Still need to complete barrier walls and lay base foundation laid south of 24W 

[volsfanwill]

Has everyone heard about this yet?  A dog in Seattle has figured out how to ride the bus by itself.

 

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/01/13/377023829/how-urbane-dog-rides-seattle-bus-to-get-to-the-park?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20150113

 

takeaways, This is Seattles D Line, BRT.  in other words, it is so easy a dog can do it. 

also, even NPR and the riders refer to it as "the bus"

 

on further investigation, the D line is a rapid bus line with BRT like features. in other words not full BRT.  it sounds like our BRT lite routes.

[rookzie]

Has everyone heard about this yet?  A dog in Seattle has figured out how to ride the bus by itself.

 

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/01/13/377023829/how-urbane-dog-rides-seattle-bus-to-get-to-the-park?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20150113

 

takeaways, This is Seattles D Line, BRT.  in other words, it is so easy a dog can do it. 

also, even NPR and the riders refer to it as "the bus"

 

on further investigation, the D line is a rapid bus line with BRT like features. in other words not full BRT.  it sounds like our BRT lite routes.

 

Saw that on the ABC evening news.  I hadn't take the time to read the comment blog in the link, but I wonder how King County Metro has even allowed that.  Hopefully it won't get spoiled by some passenger complaint and discrimination again the pooch, especially with her name being "Eclipse".

 

Does she just hang around the bus stop in anticipation of the bus arrival? How does she even have enough sense to get on the thing and know which one to even catch, if the boarding stop serves more than one route, even if the D-Line is a BRT lite?  Then does she paw the pull cord (or push the strip), or bark three times, when she want out at the park?  How does she even know when it's even time to request the stop, before the bus approaches it?

 

I also wonder whether her fare is paid by a monthly pass.  Does she wear an eToll tag (like for motorists in Texas and on the Louisiana Lake Pontchartrain Causeway Bridge) that gets scanned, as she enters (or leaves) the bus, if her dog park is beyond the downtown free-zone.  What if some dirt-bag human gets on the bus and tries to sass her?  Can she carry her own in that case?

 

A real-life Lassie, Jr., you know!  We just don't give pooches enough credit for aptitude and common sense.  There are many, many so-called educated adults who don't even have enough sense to know how to ride the bus (apology if I have offended anyone).  "Eclipse" really needs to be discussed as a sociology or a humanities case, IMO!

 

Here in Tennessee ─ I think in Cheatham or rural Montgomery Co. there was a local news feature less than 5 years ago (maybe more recently) ─ where some well-mannered stray dogs each would wait at the side of a back road for this privately owned former school bus, and the driver would stop that thing and open the door for each of 'em, en route to a local fishing hole, where people would then would take them on their boats and put preserver jackets on them for keeping them as company while fishing.

 

-==-

[volsfanwill]

from what I read that stretch of the route is that bus only, so getting on the wrong one couldnt happen, but even if other busses stop there, she would probably recognize the difference between the long articulated brt bus and a regular bus.

getting off. she can count the stops. or use smell to recognize the dog park is near by.

the owner seems to still follow on the next bus so that takes care of the fare. 

[Hey_Hey]

I believe the planned end date was fall 2015 for the I-65 project.

[MidTenn1]

That current I-65 project is supposed to be the 'last' interstate widening project in Davidson County for a long, long time. That was the word passed down when the project began.

[smeagolsfree]

They need to widen 40 West from White Bridge at least to the Davidson county line to 4 lanes.

[donNdonelson2]

Three lanes all the way to Dickson, highway 46 exit, would be great, too.