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OK, I apologize that my reply was too confrontational and misrespresented your points. I do think we largely agree.  My bad.

 

My emotional reaction to the call for public input was largely due to the example when Peter Westerholm was proposing a protected bike lane on a portion of Woodland there was a small but very vocal opposition that made it impossible to move forward.  I am firmly convinced that from a best practices street engineering point of view that this would be an overall improvement for this road. I have no formal training nor professional background in street design but have read up some and I think people have preconceived ideas about street design/function that don't match real world data.  The Woodland St bikelane would have removed a left turn lane which is a relatively underutilized space and intermittent left turn bays could have been installed to still allow dedicated space for left turns without taking up long stretches of space that never get used.

 

 

To move on, I think a relevant point to discuss on this board is how transportation policy relates to zoning policy: specifically I contend that the requirements to include parking spaces as part of commercial real estate zoning are flawed policy that distorts the free market and harms the city.  If a business has a reason to believe that customers want to park next to their building then they will choose to dedicate space to parking.  If parking becomes scarce, as is almost always the case in any thriving neighborhood, then someone will charge money for it and the market sorts it out.  From an economics point of view, requiring private businesses to build parking for cars forces them to subsidize one transportation option at the expense of all others (walk/bike, bus, uber/lyft etc).  It also so happens that in forcing private businesses to subsidize individual auto travel we are incentivizing additional congestion and air pollution.


 

 

Please pardon me if I'm incorrect, but I believe we actually end up in concurrence, after all.

-==-

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This is somewhat of an aside, but does anyone know if MTA has any plans to revamp their branding and logo? It just screams 80s era public transit service...not exactly a time period that was kind to the sector...in addition to looking like something someone tossed together on Photoshop without any real forethought or design idea.

 

I mean, this is what we have:

 

220px-Nashville_mta_logo.png

 

Compared to Philly, New York, DC, and Boston, respectively:

 

220px-SEPTA_text.svg.png

 

50px-MTA_NYC_logo.svg.png

 

100px-WMATA_Metro_Logo.svg.png

 

150px-MBTA.svg.png

Created back in the days of Trivial Pursuit.

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DC and Boston are the only two that look modern IMO. If MTA agreed to use it, I'd pay for a new design through 99 Designs. I guarantee people would like it better.

 

Remarkably, Boston and DC are quite old.  Boston had it's encircled 'T' back in the mid-'60s, when I used to live there, and DC probably began to bear its logo around 1973 (after i had moved from there) following the WMATA take-over of the dissolved DC Transit and major regional bus lines.  Amazing that they remain appealing.

-==-

Edited by rookzie
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OK, I apologize that my reply was too confrontational and misrespresented your points. I do think we largely agree.  My bad.

 

My emotional reaction to the call for public input was largely due to the example when Peter Westerholm was proposing a protected bike lane on a portion of Woodland there was a small but very vocal opposition that made it impossible to move forward.  I am firmly convinced that from a best practices street engineering point of view that this would be an overall improvement for this road. I have no formal training nor professional background in street design but have read up some and I think people have preconceived ideas about street design/function that don't match real world data.  The Woodland St bikelane would have removed a left turn lane which is a relatively underutilized space and intermittent left turn bays could have been installed to still allow dedicated space for left turns without taking up long stretches of space that never get used.

 

 

To move on, I think a relevant point to discuss on this board is how transportation policy relates to zoning policy: specifically I contend that the requirements to include parking spaces as part of commercial real estate zoning are flawed policy that distorts the free market and harms the city.  If a business has a reason to believe that customers want to park next to their building then they will choose to dedicate space to parking.  If parking becomes scarce, as is almost always the case in any thriving neighborhood, then someone will charge money for it and the market sorts it out.  From an economics point of view, requiring private businesses to build parking for cars forces them to subsidize one transportation option at the expense of all others (walk/bike, bus, uber/lyft etc).  It also so happens that in forcing private businesses to subsidize individual auto travel we are incentivizing additional congestion and air pollution.

 

 

Please pardon me if I'm incorrect, but I believe we actually end up in concurrence, after all.

-==-

 

 

If I weren't so afraid of winging it on a bike, then I'd prefer to do it over the bus, at lease for half my commutes of just over 7 miles.  They even have fully enclosed bike lockers for least right outside the plaza entrance to my workplace.  Hell, I'd beat the bus, especially when time would come to weasel my way out of downtown on the return.  But I don't trust drivers in Nashv'l especially, and it's a morbid admission that I'd likely end up a hit-and-run victim, only to be claimed by my next of kin 48 hrs later.

 

Bikeway infrastructure is undergoing the same kind of growing pains as mass transit, although along different "paths", so to speak.  I had been in much better health, when I used to use those bikeways up North, even during those early mid-2000s.  But regardless, I hope to see huge changes in addressing the need for and incorporating bikeways and bike safety enforcement in the decade to come.  i just pray that it doesn't end up like all the rest of the "studies" have with the MPO, that just keep getting updated as pie in the sky.  There is so-so much wrong with the current deteriorated infrastructure as a whole that the uncoordinated patchwork of "fixes" in some cases has made it worse in many respects (like placing high-tension electric transmission towers in the middle of sidewalks, because it costs less).

-==-

Edited by rookzie
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Yeah, I am normally a bike commuter ~5 miles East Nashville to Vandy but had surgery recently and have been in the car the last 2 weeks.  It's been terrible beyond the bummer of missing the fresh air it's been a serious problem in terms of scheduling my trip home so I can get my kids on time.   On the bike my commute takes me 25 minutes in nice weather with no traffic or 30-35 minutes in bad weather and/or bad traffic.  Thursday with the rain and SEC tourney it took me 75 minutes. 

 

 

Although it is early yet and the candidates are still seeking the middle ground and not get too specific on anything I'd be curious if anyone has a take on how the mayoral race and new administration will address transportation.

 

To me Megan Barry has the most specific, most sensible platform on this that I have read:

http://www.meganbarry.com/transit

She hits the important issues, makes relevant comparisons to other American cities, and cites studies suggesting a data-based approach to decision making.  She also has the experience to work with the chamber in making transportation policy to support the economy of the city.

 

If anyone is aware of other candidates plans on this or has any other information about how transportation policy figures in the mayor races then please share...

Edited by 37206dude
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I don't like any of them; Boston's looks particularly vile and ill-proportioned to me, reminiscent of the UTK logo.  DC is probably the least bad.  At least Septa has a bit of color but it's too busy and I don't like the chosen colors, although any color is better than none IMO.

London's would probably be my favorite.  It has strong attractive color and a kind of ageless quality.  This is the Underground logo; the other parts of the system have the same shape but the circle is different colors.

 

 

 

Underground_zps7f86fzf7.gif

Edited by Neigeville2
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This is just a guess, but I would bet we will see a couple of new stations in the Gulch. One will probably be put in the area of the new complete street project happening now. Hopefully there will be a replacement for the one we lost soon.

 

Noticed this morning that an on-street parking space on 11th Ave S across from Bar Louie has recently been paved with concrete and raised to sidewalk height.  This is the same "pad" setup that the previous station had.  Hopefully this will be the new B-Cycle station.  

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A friend of mine who has a bit of a "liberal activist" streak also does some graphic design. He put together a proposal which he actually presented to Stephen Bland of MTA, including a redesigned logo:

 

Capture.png

 

I thought it was a nice, modern take on our current logo while retaining our current color scheme and overall aesthetic. Still recognizable based on the previous logo, but also much more "current".

 

You can read the entire proposal here. He made some great points--hopefully a few that MTA takes to heart.

Edited by Vrtigo
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I came across a similar proposal (though spurred by a capstone design project) a couple of years ago while searching online for a good-quality MTA logo to use on a set of plans.

 

http://www.underconsideration.com/brandnewclassroom/archives/nashville_mta_by_logan_hartline.php

 

Wasn't real fond of the logo itself but I liked the color and consistency. But honestly I can see from the perspective of the agency why it's hard to put a lot of effort into a brand, especially when you'd rather have your main vehicle (in both the figurative and literal sense) wrapped in money-making vinyl than displaying your logo.

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It looks "oK", but I don't feel that they necessarily should stick with that arrary of broke-off jelly-candy fruit slices.  I think that there should be some kind of "democratic" polling on a fresh set of designs.

 

But for now I also wouldn't care if they just stuck with a plain-Jane generic, "warmed-over" logo, so long as they start with putting the foot in the door with some fresh "ground-breaking" transit project first.  Otherwise we're just beguiling ourselves into a sense of false start, as it was back in the old days of the Deaderick-Street shelters.

-==-

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And in other news, CSX says "NOPE" to commuter rail between Nashville & Murfreesboro. Ya know, f**k you CSX, because you did it in central Florida, why not here? 

 

http://www.dnj.com/story/news/politics/2015/03/13/ketron-csx-scuttles-rail-passenger-proposal/70316028/

 

Highly disappointing.  Why the hell does this city have so much more trouble than it's peers with getting any mass transit going?  This is getting embarrassing.

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I'll say this again because it's been a while since I last posted it... and there are many new people on here.  Jim Cooper is a worthless Congressional representative.  He has no standing even in his own party, and (this from a personal friend in his party) he is a bitter "slug" who takes up space and obstructs progress when he can.  His fellow representatives do not respect him.  And he has an unearned reputation as being fiscally conservative, but no one who has voted for a 2.5 trillion dollar boondoggle can rightfully claim that reputation.  The Tennessean is his biggest cheerleader.

Edited by MLBrumby
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Highly disappointing.  Why the hell does this city have so much more trouble than it's peers with getting any mass transit going?  This is getting embarrassing.

MTA is on board, so are the respective municipalities at both ends, but it's CSX versus the state most likely, as was the case in Florida. Florida paid $250mil or so for the SunRail trackage, but that was on a section of track that saw maybe 1/2 the traffic the section from Nashville to Chattanooga does, and would require double-track the entire route, which is very expensive and CSX just completed a roughly 2 mile long expansion in Florence between the Boro and Smyrna. The state probably just doesn't want to pony up the cash CSX demands to remove the liability from themselves and such.

Edited by NashRugger
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Again, sorry for the breadth and depth on this latest CSX

 

When you can, I'd like for you to take some time and read this older article from "Progressive Railroading"
 

CSX Transportation Article
Central Florida business and community leaders can't wait for SunRail to arrive

 

"Passenger Rail Article - Central Florida Business and Community Leaders Can't Wait for SunRail to Arrive" Progressive Railroading. Ed. Angela Cotey. Trade Press Media Group, Inc., n.d. August 2011. Accessed Web. 16 Mar. 2015.

 

www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/article/Central-Florida-business-and-community-leaders-cant-wait-for-SunRail-to-arrive--27560

 

 

For a number of years in the recent past, there have been some strange and curious dynamics going on between CSXT and the State of Florida on its use of former CSX trackage.  In better understanding the Florida situation, it is important to know a bit of history that CSX, as a present-day merger agglomerate, has always enjoyed a bit of redundancy, as the result of a 1964 unifying of two distinct former and primary components:
  the S-line (former Seaboard Air Line RR, or "SAL")
  the A-line (former Atlantic Coast Line, or "ACL")

With these two lines as former competitors now as one, the company became "Seaboard Coast Line", with the A-line and the S-line extending from Richmond, Va. to the east-and west coasts of South Florida.  For many years even prior to that merger, the SAL had a controlling interest in "our" Louisville & Nashville RR, which itself had controlling of East Tennessee's Clinchfield RR (based out of Erwin, TN).  Along with a number of lesser lines, the SCL became "Family Lines", when in 1982 these three became one to be called the "Seaboard System", or "SBD", which also included shared ownership of former "Chessie System": Baltimore and Ohio (B&O), and Chesapeake and Ohio (C&O).  Through renaming and restructuring finally in 1986, CSXT was formed which included ALL the above.  Add to this what it acquired essentially from the federal govt, in 1998 which commissioned Morgan-Stanley to arbitrate on the joint stock purchase (with a competitive line) of the former ConRail, a 1976 conglomerate takeover by the fed of less than a dozen of failing lines extending from MA to MD to KY to MO, IL and MI and in between.  So you see, as far as everything east of the Miss. River is concerned, CSX is a monster.

Back to the "A-Line", CSX recently entered in an agreement with the State of Florida, to which the A-line would be sold to the state and upgraded, while allowing CSX freights to utilize the A-line for movements as needed.  Besides, CSX had been long  been focused on using it's S-line for most of its traffic within the State of Florida.  CSX will shift freight trains from its A line through Orlando to its S-line to accommodate the SunRail commuter trains that are to run between DeLand and Poinciana, Fla.; in turn CSX would beef up its S-line to handle additional traffic displaced from the A-line, even though CSX would still retain some use of the A-line.  This astronomically costly deal between Florida and CSXT was made possible in part by the rationale that the A-line and the S-line were very roughly parallel, point to point.  In consideration of its deal with CSX alone, the state's SunRail commuter network project will have become the costliest commuter-rail undertaking in US history.

 

CSXT S-line and A-line corridors in Florida

A-line%20S-line%20Florida_zpsqqkr2lq5.jp

 

 

Even if the State of Tenn. could vote to "fund" such and initiative, Tenn. simply does not have the redundancy of pre-existing railway infrastructure to be in such a position as is Florida.  It also has neither the density nor the political will as Central Florida.  That's a primary reason that Middle Tennessee has no leverage of rationale to work with CSX, and as it has been stated about 2 years ago, CSX is going to have to get the overwhelmingly fat end of the stick, if anyone wants to work with it, as Florida has proven.  We also have to realize the Florida has the only new commuter rail projects begun on existing CSX trackage following the official creation of CSX, the first being TriRail of South Fla. (Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, and West Palm Beach), with which FDOT purchased trackage in 1989 from CSX, with certain conditions and arrangements.  The major extension of SunRail, with the FDOT acquisition of  the A-line, becomes the second of such an arrangement, and perhaps the success and expansion of both TriRail and SunRail ultimately set the unprecedented  momentum that has gleaned action for such enormous funding, a compounding case which convincingly has garnered considerable support from the FTA.

That constitutes a whole lot of  favorable dynamics with a rather sustained “south wind” of leverage, and apparently despite opposition, the Florida Legislature has wielded its mettle with resolve.  Tenn. is not even close to becoming “ready” and willing to invest in a considerably smaller-scale Nashville-Murfreesboro commuter-rail project (compared to SunRail), much less in 20 years expanding to include at least 4 or 5 additional routes.    Generally, newer commuter-rail ops have not necessarily been with meaningfully measured success.  But unlike Nashville’s MCS, TriRail and SunRail are not rail-starter projects, which were sought after on the cheap.  Unlike the “Howdy Doody” MCS (the presence of which I nevertheless appreciate), TriRail and particularly SunRail have been built as destination-based regional transit that connects a major employment corridor in each respective region. The headways are somewhat frequent for commuter-rail, and these lines operate into cores rather than along pure outskirts, with augmented connectors to major employment centes.  Honestly, it was difficult for me to even think about holding my breath on Senator Ketron’s ambition with CSX – not to say that it never was possible, but rather that there is nothing in terms of real and juicy carrots on the table for which CSX would be willing to bargain.

 

As quoted from the subject Tennessean article:

"...[according to a spokesperson for CSX] introducing passenger operations on CSX's freight right-of-way would involve a number of challenges" because of Nashville's role as a key interchange point for its industrial rail system..."

 

Again, Tennessee just does not have in place a scenario even remotely comparable to that of Florida, which, leveraged with "sinful" amounts of funding, has the historically favorable rail infrastructure amenable to CSX consideration.

==-

 

 

 

A graphic recap of merger transitions to CSX

ACL_zpsj9lyqsy4.jpg+ SAL_zpsldwtkau5.jpg  = SCL_zpsdiizqdap.jpg

 

_______________________________

CampO_For_Progress_zpsdpbvcffu.jpg+ balt_ohio2_sm_zpsqeslvymr.gif+ western-maryland-railway-logo_sm_zps662t
 

= chessiesyslogo__sm_zpsirnw39qj.jpg

 

 _______________________________


louisville-and-nashville-herald_zpss33td+ Monon_logo_sm_zpsocbppjw7.jpg

+CampEI_logo_sm_zpseot3psxn.jpg
     (Chicago & Eastern Illinois)
 

= LampN_zpso9ssrp81.jpg

 

_______________________________

 

 

 

 

LampN_zpso9ssrp81.jpg+ SCL_zpsdiizqdap.jpg +CRR_zpsj5zavrti.jpg
 

= FamilyLines_logo_sm_zps928mire5.jpg
 

_______________________________

 

 

chessiesyslogo__sm_zpsirnw39qj.jpg+ FamilyLines_logo_sm_zps928mire5.jpg
 

= CSXT_zpscteeynnr.jpg
 

_______________________________

+
RFampP_logo_sm_zpsl4gonouy.jpg (Richmond, Va. to DC)
+
One-Half of Conrail_sm_zpsuw2snm9u.jpg
 

 

=
  Present-Day CSXT

  CSXmap_zpsppirubj4.jpg
 

 

Lucrative ConRail (Consolidated Rail), before divided and sold in 1998, consisted of former:
PRR_zps57vlvrbs.jpg+ NYC_zpsdr4kpsqt.jpg + Newhaven_sm_zps3qxsl8bf.jpg
+ ErieLackawanna_zpslhybl8y2.jpg

 

+ PhilaampReading_sm_zpsmoa10b3b.jpg  + LV_logo_zps3hzbqgrm.jpg  + CNJ_logo_zps9ts2p1sy.jpg

As indicated above the assets of ConRail were sold and divided more or less equally between CSX and the Norfolk Southern 1998 (rather than being sold outright to a single interest).
-==-

Edited by rookzie
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For those that get this comment soon, there is an online chat on the Tennessean website with Steve Bland, CEO of MTA.

 

We've already learned in this chat that an app with real time locations of MTA buses will be available THIS YEAR.

Edited by Hey_Hey
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For those that get this comment soon, there is an online chat on the Tennessean website with Steve Bland, CEO of MTA.

 

We've already learned in this chat that an app with real time locations of MTA buses will be available THIS YEAR.

 

 NO!!!! Git outta heahh!!

-==-

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Amp officially dead.

 

From the Tennessean:

 

 

The Amp, Nashville's controversial bus rapid transit proposal, appears dead once and for all after Mayor Karl Dean's top transit official said Thursday that the city plans to cease work on the project.

http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/2015/01/22/nashville-mta-amp-dead/22172861/

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There wasn't a whole lot of substance from the online chat. It was a lot of "we're always evaluating...", "we're always willing to partner...", etc.

The most substantive thing out of this was the announcement that the app will be available this year. The other tidbit is that they will tackle app based payment once the real time app is rolled out.

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My heart bleeds for K-Dean.  Must be embarrasin' and a bit of "crow-pie" down the chute.

 

"...Dean, in a statement Thursday, said he is proud that his administration helped lay the groundwork for a future mass transit system in Nashville...."

 

Oddly enough, the administration's biggest failure in terms of piloting and driving the AMP project seems to have been the one thing it had claimed as a success, now that the project has been put to rest.   While this can be said to be true in a sense, it also can be said that subject of transit certainly has become a major if not foremost issue in Nashville and that it has gained the attention of more citizens than it had several years ago, not so much due to the fact that the mayor's office successfully engaged the public in a discussion about transit, but rather as a result of members of the public having engaged themselves in an attempt to stop the mayor from doing something for which he had been perceived as hell-bent on doing.  That's likely the reason that we witnessed some unlikely rearing of some ugly heads in the legislature (not "pretty by any context of "ugly"), coming out of simply nowhere fast.

 

I'm the first to say that it was of a good intention, however questionably and arguably structured the planning and motives might have been received by others, as well as the timing of the initiative, w/r/t other high-dollar undertakings..

-==-.

 

Edited by rookzie
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