The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[nashvylle]

5 hours ago, nashwatcher said:

Curious: what departments in Metro are in charge of making decisions in terms of improving our city's street grid/connectivity?

lee beaman

[Pyramid Scheme]

5 hours ago, nashvylle said:

lee beaman

"dudu', tsssss....."

[Guest]

The shooting that occurred today at the Music City Bus Station in downtown will do more to discredit mass-transit in Nashville than anything Lee Beaman could do...

The headlines detailing 4 kids injured (1 critically) in the shooting are a PR nightmare.

[smeagolsfree]

And how many people are killed in wrecks and road rage incidents.

[Vrtigo]

6 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

And how many people are killed in wrecks and road rage incidents.

Not by a bus, they aren't. But that's the last thing on the minds of these people who would like nothing better than to do away with a transit system altogether. All this incident does is give more fodder to the anti-transit mentality and most certainly reinforces its racially-biased stigma.

[rookzie]

6 hours ago, Vrtigo said:

Not by a bus, they aren't. But that's the last thing on the minds of these people who would like nothing better than to do away with a transit system altogether. All this incident does is give more fodder to the anti-transit mentality and most certainly reinforces its racially-biased stigma.

Yup, there goes our new yet un-built expanded fancy bus fleet, streetcars, and light-rail all down the tubes ─ and not the subway type tube. LoL

It won't kill the aspirations-come-to-fruition, but it does become incendiary to arouse NIMBYs and their network more than normal, making it a steeper climb in staving off litigation.  Being a daily MTA rider to and from that MCC terminal, I've posted long before this of how lax security is around that thing.  Design and budget limitations are much to blame, as as well as policy, since everyone is permitted to criss-cross J-walk as she or he pleases, even with security watching, and a MNPD parked smack in the middle of the lower and upper busways with beacons flashing.  This is not to be unexpected, however, as it happens even in Portland and St.Louis, and everywhere else.  It just has not been as frequent at MCC and therefore is a "novelty of terror" and will remain so, until underlying issues at hand are addressed.  MTA would be better served to hire interior crossing guards to enforce strait-line perpendicular crossing at the designated walks and to permit buses from having to stop anytime a person "feels" entitled to just start traversing the cross-walks, one of 4 for each busway.

Anytime your Metro affords every student a free pass, you're going to have to beef up the infrastructure accordingly ─ security, boarding facilities, and peak capacity of vehicles.  MNPS has it made such that it can just dump off the disciplining of riders from school buses to be handled by the transit system, which we ALL know is marginal at best, if not woefully inadequate, and is quite ill-equipped in handling the surges of students swarming between, and especially within the buses.  When I worked as a substitute teach at a middle school some 10 years ago, we made certain that all school bus boardings were orderly prior to afternoon departures, and any exceptions were handled promptly, even if it meant summoning a resource officer.  Believe you me ─ I'm a veteran, and it's the single most annoying complaint among many if not most paying non-school riders who board in the late afternoon at MCS.  Fights occur almost every other day somewhere in that facility, even if it becomes quenched before it actually is noticeable.  Until the MTA can obtain new coaches to increase seated capacity, arrange for some semblance of order in boarding to control constant push and shove at the doors and prevent never ending jumping in front of waiting paying riders, and pre-empt some respect in etiquette for all while on the buses, then MTA will continue to lose choice riders, in a wholesale manner, during school-year terms, seldom ever to return. 

Again, this incident is only one which escalated to something of a media spectacle, I'm afraid.  It's going to require significant funding and policy changing as part of the entire transit scope. -==-

Edited April 26, 2016 by rookzie

[Guest]

I did not make the claim that a car was safer than a bus, a plane, or a train. I simple stated the obvious...that this hurts prospects for mass-transit in Nashville.

As for stigmas .... I will let that lie as politics would soon follow.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

Rookie, as a read your posts I often think, "get out of my head"....ha. I agree with most of your posts and learn something new from the rest of your writings.

[smeagolsfree]

You guys are fun to mess with, almost as much fun as it is to mess with John.hehehehehehehehehe

 

 

[Guest]

Not mass-transit, but very cool all the same.



http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2016/04/26-ncstl
 

 

Check out the cool video that accompanies the article....of course they need money for the restoration.

[rookzie]

..I had been "up all night" (off and on) discussing this in the underworld.  I didn't want to post anything about it here, because I didn't believe it to be pertinent to the thread per se, even though it is transportation related.  What's at stake here is increased tourism ─ potentially a slight but noticeable amount, contingent upon a future schedule of steam-passenger-train excursions, which would augment the current number underway with diesel-electrics since the early 1990s at the TCRM (Tennessee Central Railway Museum), with which I have been associated since 1992.  Cities such as Fort Wayne, LA, Portland, Roanoke, and quite a number of others whose lines authorized steam rail excursions, frequently have surges of coke-bottle eyeglass geeks making pilgrimages to such towns which host these events.

I've presented one of my several narratives from yesterday, following the preliminary release of the status of the proposal from the museum chairman:

 

Quote

_________________________
NC&St.L (Nashville Chattanooga & St. Louis) Ry Nº576 semi-streamlined Class J3-57 4-8-4 (referred to as a "Dixie" rather than as a "Northern"), shoved into Centennial Park - Nashville, TN, during around 1953, after being donated to the city, has undergone severe corrosion, particularly with the solid one-piece cast tender water-bottom casting, along with decades of vandalism and theft of components. Following a restoration proposal spearheaded during the previous 12 months, the Nashville Steam Preservation Society has issued a press release regarding transporting the steam engine 576 from Nashville's Centennial Park (near Vanderbilt Univ.), in preparations for lengthy restoration process, including assessment and funding arrangements. A sound team of individuals has been assembled for fund-raising and procurement, for the locomotive's eventual operation on the Nashville & Eastern Railroad.

The press release precedes the city's Park Board agenda discussion, which will list the project to be heard by the Park Board on May 3, 2016. Park Board staff have been very supportive of the idea. There have been numerous unsuccessful attempts to accomplish this, so I keep my fingers and my eyes crossed on this one. .Nº576 is the sole survivor of 20 identical 4-8-4's delivered by Alco, starting 1942, which were harnessed primarily for passenger and troop service between Nashville and Memphis and between Nashville and Atlanta, via Chattanooga. These engines died young, with less than 10 years of service, as the railroad dieselized. NC&StL merged with the L&N (Louisville & Nashville) RR in 1957. -==-

I indicated in a previous dialog that the loco has deteriorated severely. Since 1972, when I first crawled underneath the tender to examine the design features of American practice in the early '40s, I have watched the many pounds of rust flake to the ground from the solid one-piece cast water-bottom underbelly. The addition of an open-sided shed has helped immensely in partially arresting the formation of rust from straight falling precipitation. My guess is that any needed structural integrity would be restored, by parent metal surface rebuilding, contingent on the intended extent of the project initiative.  Obviously, the engine would need nearly a total break down to replace all fasteners (bolts, rivets, ...). Also I have noticed one of the Nathan lubricators to have been damaged. Of the full set of roller bearings employed in the design, some might have taken on water etching. Asbestos abatement would need to be undertaken prior to any comprehensive examination, and the boiler would require and entire rebuild and and certification.
_________________________[end quote]

A blessing in disguise is that, while the locomotive has been neglected for over 60 years, once donated to the City of Nashville, had the loco remained intact with the  NC&St.L RR, then by default ownership would have been transferred to the L&N in 1957, to the Seaboard System (SBD) in 1982, and ultimately to the CSX in 1986.  It likely would have ended up in the B&O Railroad Museum in Baltimore at the very least, precluding any probable return to it's current home city.  This is a coal-fired locomotive, which would require makeshift facilities to provide boiler water and fuel loading, as the infrastructure of coaling towers and watering penstocks (water standpipes) has long been dismantled.  However, EPA variances are always obtainable for such special operations.

photo of loco Nº576 at West Nashville Shops  - courtesy, Dr. Mike Condren

 

photo of loco Nº576 at Memphis Union Station  - courtesy, Dr. Mike Condren

photo of sister loco Nº570, as originally delivered from American Locomotive Works (ALCO), Schenectady, NY 1942
courtesy, David Castner, Univ. of Louisville (shown at West Nashville Shops)

Edited April 26, 2016 by rookzie

[rookzie]

..If the Nº 576 restoration does come to fruition, then the roadside effect can be quite alluring, as shown in this short video clip taken of another but more streamlined reciprocating-steam locomotive, shown near Highway US-29 near Reidsville, NC,  just south of the Va. State Line, during a weekend round-trip excursion (Apr 23, 24 2016, between Greensboro, NC and Roanoke, VA.  I rode this trip some 33 years ago,  The attraction seems to draw far more spectators, whose mission is to take video and photo shoots, than those who choose to ride it.

As strange and unorthodox as it my seem, these events draw hundreds and even thousands of special-interest followers (fanatics) nationwide, if the subject locomotive is relatively large and "modern" as far as steam locos are concerned (built 1930-1952).  Nº576 should be authorized to operate at least close to 60 mph between Tulip Grove (Hermitage) and West Lebanon, the same speed allowed currently for the MCS commuter runs. -==-

 

 

Edited April 27, 2016 by rookzie

[markhollin]

Estimated 3,000 people per day would initially utilize a commuter train route between Clarksville and Nashville.  Cost would be $500+ million.  Lots of detail in this report:

http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/blog/2016/05/how-many-people-would-ride-a-500m-commuter-rail.html

[grilled_cheese]

4 minutes ago, markhollin said:

Estimated 3,000 people per day would initially utilize a commuter train route between Clarksville and Nashville.  Cost would be $500+ million.  Lots of detail in this report:

http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/blog/2016/05/how-many-people-would-ride-a-500m-commuter-rail.html

I'm tired of reports and studies.  Just build something.....

[FrankNash]

^^^ Worth doing if the train terminates in the Gulch. IMO

[PruneTracy]

2 hours ago, FrankNash said:

^^^ Worth doing if the train terminates in the Gulch. IMO

Unfortunately CSX owns the rail through their Kayne Avenue Yard adjacent to the Gulch. This proposal uses the Nashville and Western short line. Right now the study shows the track terminating at the Farmers' Market by way of Herman Street, all on N&W rail.

[BnaBreaker]

How about before we bring in all of these hypothetical commuter rail travelers, we make sure there is a way they can get to where they're going when they get here that doesn't involve walking for hours, calling a taxi, or waiting an hour for a bus.  We are putting the cart way before the horse with talk of all of these half-a-billion dollar commuter rail lines projected to move eight people back and forth from Bucksnort when the major population center of the region doesn't have it's transit needs even close to sorted yet.  I get that commuter rail has it's place in the grand scheme of things, but how about we focus on fixing that giant, gaping hole in the radiator before we dump all of our efforts into changing out the wiper blades.  

Edited May 11, 2016 by BnaBreaker

[donNdonelson2]

New lyrics for a new age..."take the last train to Bucksnort and I'll meet you at the station..."

Edited May 11, 2016 by donNdonelson2
Double post

[rookzie]

On 5/11/2016 at 9:18 PM, FrankNash said:

^^^ Worth doing if the train terminates in the Gulch. IMO

 

22 hours ago, PruneTracy said:

Unfortunately CSX owns the rail through their Kayne Avenue Yard adjacent to the Gulch. This proposal uses the Nashville and Western short line. Right now the study shows the track terminating at the Farmers' Market by way of Herman Street, all on N&W rail.

As we discussed over the past 2 or 3 years, including the somewhat more recent proposal of this NW corridor thing, to me the best LONG-long-term way to do ANY commuter-rail comprehensive system, whether it is standard defined railroad rail, light rail, or some hybrid flavor, is to have direct-connected routes which meet or cross ─ not necessarily in the form of a single centralized terminal.

Nashville is not a Chicago or a New York ─ and formerly Philly with its former Reading Terminal ─ which can afford to maintain multiple terminals of railroad-type commuter rail terminals of routes not connected to each other, from a logistical standpoint to manage congestion.  Since Denver had enough cents sense to start their game quite early on, they now can boast a rather radical jump in their selection for their new FasTracks "A-line" airport route.  Instead of using new equipment compatible with their existing light-rail cars, it went whole-hog with full-railway type self-propelled overhead electric multiple unit cars (EMU), a very expensive but locally preferred alternative which has made Denver's RTD join the ranks of only a handful of other transit agencies with such a choice ─  Northern Indiana, Chicago, and Philly, although NYC currently uses 3rd-rail only, for its EMUs.  Not only this, but In addition to the A Line, two additional new electrified commuter rail lines are slated to open in 2017, with a 4th line of this type planned for operation by 2018.

I would never expect Nashville to have elected such a choice, but then I never supposed that Denver would have either.  My point is all this is that Middle Tenn. really needs to buckle down and consider some approaches more aggressive and bold, rather than tailor a proposal on the constraints on the remnants of an existing subsystem.  First, the selected NW corridor through Ashland City proposed the badly-needed replacement of the existing Bordeaux railroad bridge over the Cumberland River, but consultants had proposed a fixed span with the mandated shipping-channel water-lever clearance, which would require that approach grades adversely affect the performance of Nashville and Western RR's freight operation.  They argued against the use of a more modern vertical-lift-span bridge, commonly used throughout coastal regions, the Great Lakes, and even a couple of older instances in Chattanooga and New Johnsonville, TN, because of the expense of the typical maintenance of vertical-lift spans.  The fact is, this should not be a factor in this decision-making, as it really becomes a trade-off as a "necessary evil".  it just might be a better option to build a dedicated river crossing for the corridor service.

Second, but not last, rather than destroy an additional large swath of residential land in interstate-butchered North Nashville, in an attempt to provide better alignment in the Fisk-Meharry area, other more daring options could be proposed and analyzed, even if the options would be considerably beyond practical reach, in the near future ─ even if it meant a temporary-permanent station in north Midtown at Charlotte near 26th/27th.  This could entail "bridging" to a central location with a combination of tunnels and fly-overs to establish a common presence to accommodate connections from the NW and longer-ranged planned other corridor routes.

Even the current Star route could be made to tunnel or elevate in some manner to the North Capitol district with a NW corridor presence ─ costly but doable.  Without direct connections of these conceived distantly planned operations, it can become highly improbable that the region would lure substantial reverse-commute ridership into and away from the core, if these trains require and intermediate, stop-gap trip between rail connections.  But it takes a momentous will to effectuate such a coordinated and willful measure.  Otherwise, this region will end up with little more than a mess of disparate and possibly incompatible isolated systems.

 

Denver's new order of Korean manufactured, built in USA EMU's, very similar to a concurrent order for Philadelphia's SEPTA, but without vestibule steps for low platforms.  Just as with a shared recent design between Northern Indiana and Chicago, and between Miami and Baltimore (some 30 years ago), Denver was able to land a reduction in cost with its order of shared design cars with that of Philly.

Edited May 12, 2016 by rookzie

[nashvylle]

Could this elevated bus be the future to mass transit? I like that it can be implemented in less than 1 year, and at 1/5 of the cost to build light rail... and all them nashvillians who love their cars can still drive their cars!

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3606602/What-possibly-wrong-China-unveils-elevated-bus-drives-cars.html

 

 

 

 

[farm_boy]

5 hours ago, nashvylle said:

Could this elevated bus be the future to mass transit? I like that it can be implemented in less than 1 year, and at 1/5 of the cost to build light rail... and all them nashvillians who love their cars can still drive their cars!

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3606602/What-possibly-wrong-China-unveils-elevated-bus-drives-cars.html

 

 

 

 

In case you haven't noticed, there are a few power lines in Nashville that might shock the riders. We love our power lines even more than sidewalks!

[nashvylle]

we could get mass transit and get rid of the power lines!

Are the power lines just as bad on Charlotte as west end? Any mass transit on West End isn't going to happen. 

[smeagolsfree]

If I were drunk in a taxi and from out of town and that thing went over my head, it would absolutely freak me out and scare the hell out of me. Even if I were stone cold sober, I would still be freaked. It would take some getting use to, as well as the idiot drivers needing to be in their lane.

[nashvylle]

it would need some getting used to, but how is it any different from not trying to hit a car in the lane right next to you?

IF this transit is successful in China, it is worth looking into at 1/5 the price of subways and only 1 year of construction. 

[CenterHill]

That bus looks like something straight out of General Motors' Futurama exhibition.