The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[fieldmarshaldj]

50 minutes ago, nashwatcher said:

Gas tax makes A LOT of sense to me

It encourages the use of mass transit if it's substantial enough. As a culture we've become really dependent on our cars and could probably benefit from thinking out our trips instead of just driving whenever the whim hits us. Also, it hopefully reduces pollution which is good for everyone's health. 

You won't be forcing people out of their cars, you're gonna be forcing the politicians who voted for a gas tax hike right out of office.

[jmtunafish]

3 hours ago, nashwatcher said:

Gas tax makes A LOT of sense to me

It encourages the use of mass transit if it's substantial enough. As a culture we've become really dependent on our cars and could probably benefit from thinking out our trips instead of just driving whenever the whim hits us. Also, it hopefully reduces pollution which is good for everyone's health. 

Then you have the situation where you actually want people to drive.  Otherwise, if fewer and fewer people drive (and as cars become increasingly more fuel efficient, and as more people use electric cars), that means fewer and fewer people will buy gasoline.  Then where will the money come from?

[bigeasy]

Miles tax? The more you drive, the more you pay? No clue how they could regulate that, but at least it would mean the people using the roads more would have to pay more.

[PruneTracy]

1 hour ago, bigeasy said:

Miles tax? The more you drive, the more you pay? No clue how they could regulate that, but at least it would mean the people using the roads more would have to pay more.

This still runs into the same problem, though. If the goal is to encourage the use of mass transit, then relying on a funding source that decreases when more people use mass transit is counterproductive.

Call me crazy but it's starting to sound like the best way to fund mass transit is to charge users of mass transit the actual costs of providing the service.

[Rockatansky]

1 hour ago, PruneTracy said:

charge users of mass transit the actual costs of providing the service.

We don't do that for automobiles/roads, why would we do it for transit?

My preference would be to pay for transit via a progressive income tax, but that's not one of the available options.

[PruneTracy]

14 minutes ago, Rockatansky said:

We don't do that for automobiles/roads, why would we do it for transit?

Roadways are a lot closer to being self-sustaining than transit programs. In Tennessee for the upcoming fiscal year, $871 million of TDOT's state funding of $1.037 billion comes directly from the state gas tax. TDOT also gets $995 million from the feds, primarily from the Highway Trust Fund which comes from the federal gas tax. This is compared to, for example, Nashville MTA, which has a farebox recovery ratio of 25%.

Bottom line, if you told the average highway agency tomorrow they could only fund themselves with user fees, they would get by fairly well. If you did the same for the average transit agency they wouldn't be able to cover their operating costs, much less maintenance or capital improvements.

14 minutes ago, Rockatansky said:

My preference would be to pay for transit via a progressive income tax, but that's not one of the available options.

The underlying issue with these types of funding proposals for mass transit is that it takes away a prime incentive for agencies to spend wisely. If you force transit agencies to fund themselves through user fees then they are going to focus their efforts on making sustainable improvements in service that will generate the greatest returns on investment through increased ridership. On the other hand, if you fund them through sources that are independent of their performance, be it income taxes, sales taxes, or whatever, then they are just as likely, if not more so, to blow it on vanity services that may or may not attract any new customers. This is the type of behavior we're seeing around the country where cities are spending several billion a pop on light rail lines that attract only a few thousand riders per day, if that.

[Rockatansky]

52 minutes ago, PruneTracy said:

In Tennessee for the upcoming fiscal year, $871 million of TDOT's state funding of $1.037 billion comes directly from the state gas tax. TDOT also gets $995 million from the feds, primarily from the Highway Trust Fund which comes from the federal gas tax. This is compared to, for example, Nashville MTA, which has a farebox recovery ratio of 25%.

TDOT spending is only a small portion of all road spending in the State. 50% or more comes from local communities fixing potholes, building or repaving roads etc... with local (sales & property) revenue.  So roadways do pay for a greater portion of themselves than transit, but also have significant negative externalities which don't show up in data about roadway spending.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Rockatansky

[Nathan_in_DC]

2 hours ago, PruneTracy said:

This is compared to, for example, Nashville MTA, which has a farebox recovery ratio of 25%.

Even WMATA here in DC only gets 28% recovery for MetroBus. MetroRail, on the other hand, gets almost 68% recovery. City busses simply do not generate revenue, and they aren't designed to. 

[Pdt2f]

Has there ever been research about the feasibility of contracting public transit routes to private companies? Or does any other city do that? I'm just spitballing and I don't know much about transit finance but it seems like bidding the job of transit to companies whose income is based upon decent use could help with efficiency and user satisfaction. There would of course have to be specifications about routes that would be city-required, and it would probably still lose the city money, but it could keep costs down. 

[Neigeville2]

29 minutes ago, Pdt2f said:

Has there ever been research about the feasibility of contracting public transit routes to private companies? Or does any other city do that? I'm just spitballing and I don't know much about transit finance but it seems like bidding the job of transit to companies whose income is based upon decent use could help with efficiency and user satisfaction. There would of course have to be specifications about routes that would be city-required, and it would probably still lose the city money, but it could keep costs down. 

Lots of places do this with trains, I don't know about buses.  And I don't know many details except that it's extremely complex to manage, it's easy to create perverse incentives for the companies.  Skytrain in Vancouver is operated by private companies.

SkyTrain currently has 53 stations serving three lines: Expo, Millennium, and Canada Line. The Expo Line and Millennium Line are operated by British Columbia Rapid Transit Company under contract from TransLink (originally BC Transit), a regional government transportation agency. The Canada Line is operated on the same principles by the private concessionaire ProTrans BC under contract to TransLink, and is an integrated part of the regional transport system.   

Of course Skytrain is totally out of our league, whatever we get is going to look like a donkey cart compared to what they have.

[Neigeville2]

Here is a sobering article about Portland OR for anyone who thinks driver-operated trains running at grade in the street are going to be a game changer for transit share.  

When you have a low-capacity light rail transit line that is bound by limitations in speed of service and reliability and also runs fairly infrequently (with any more frequent service not being easily possible because of driver-manned light rail’s very expensive operating costs and subsidies as well as the limits of the technology) the choice of transit does not become so viable an option for most people.

Skytrain is driverless and two of the lines run trains every two minutes at peak.  Off peak is never more than a train every 10 minutes and the whole system is above grade so trains go 50 mph, it never has accidents and isn't affected by traffic. 

I think the self-congratulatory air you find in Portland concerning livability is due to the fact that it is in America. They pat themselves on the back for doing things that, while exceptional for America, would be considered sub-par and disappointing anywhere else in the world.

A lot of the problem in America is we focus only on the cost of building and not the cost of operating.  Plus we're still subsidizing suburban sprawl in a thousand ways.  Here's what the Gallatin Road line will look like:

 

 

Edited October 10, 2017 by Neigeville2

[SoundScan]

New report on the most congested cities in U.S. and the worst traffic hotspots. Nashville comes in at No. 17. 

http://inrix.com/press-releases/us-hotspots/

[smeagolsfree]

14 hours ago, Neigeville2 said:

Here is a sobering article about Portland OR for anyone who thinks driver-operated trains running at grade in the street are going to be a game changer for transit share.  

When you have a low-capacity light rail transit line that is bound by limitations in speed of service and reliability and also runs fairly infrequently (with any more frequent service not being easily possible because of driver-manned light rail’s very expensive operating costs and subsidies as well as the limits of the technology) the choice of transit does not become so viable an option for most people.

Skytrain is driverless and two of the lines run trains every two minutes at peak.  Off peak is never more than a train every 10 minutes and the whole system is above grade so trains go 50 mph, it never has accidents and isn't affected by traffic. 

I think the self-congratulatory air you find in Portland concerning livability is due to the fact that it is in America. They pat themselves on the back for doing things that, while exceptional for America, would be considered sub-par and disappointing anywhere else in the world.

A lot of the problem in America is we focus only on the cost of building and not the cost of operating.  Plus we're still subsidizing suburban sprawl in a thousand ways.  Here's what the Gallatin Road line will look like:

 

 

That's what mass transit  in Bucksnort looks like.

[markhollin]

Editorial in todays's Nashville Post Magazine:

Nashville’s tremendous growth spurt coming out of the Great Recession has been fueled by a powerful mix of new arrivals, public investment and smart entrepreneurs. Their chemistry has spawned a Nashville that combines sleek and shiny with authentic and gritty. It also has created a new set of growth and development questions for a city stepping up in the world.

The biggest question: Are enough of us Middle Tennesseans able and prepared to adapt to one of the main needs of that Nashville?

A growing metro area that will soon hit two million people needs a transit system that is more than a light rail or bus rapid transit line here and there.

Full opinion here:

http://www.nashvillepost.com/business/nashville-post-magazine/article/20978749/the-big-question-can-we-adapt-quickly-enough
 

[bnacincy]

3 hours ago, markhollin said:

Editorial in todays's Nashville Post Magazine:

Nashville’s tremendous growth spurt coming out of the Great Recession has been fueled by a powerful mix of new arrivals, public investment and smart entrepreneurs. Their chemistry has spawned a Nashville that combines sleek and shiny with authentic and gritty. It also has created a new set of growth and development questions for a city stepping up in the world.

The biggest question: Are enough of us Middle Tennesseans able and prepared to adapt to one of the main needs of that Nashville?

A growing metro area that will soon hit two million people needs a transit system that is more than a light rail or bus rapid transit line here and there.

Full opinion here:

http://www.nashvillepost.com/business/nashville-post-magazine/article/20978749/the-big-question-can-we-adapt-quickly-enough
 

It's called commuter rail....since CSX has gone through a major restructuring and closed a few of its "humpyards" (including Nashville's) the city may want to reach out to them again and see if enough capacity has opened up if any to allow RTA to run Music City Star trains on certain routes. That's the only way you are going to make any kind of dent in the traffic.

They've got to find a way to get CSX in the game-if the city leaders approach Amazon with the notion that Nashville has great mass transit because we're gonna have a streetcar running up and down Gallatin Road they will be laughed out of Seattle.

Time to get serious.....

[AronG]

On 10/9/2017 at 3:17 PM, PruneTracy said:

Bottom line, if you told the average highway agency tomorrow they could only fund themselves with user fees, they would get by fairly well. If you did the same for the average transit agency they wouldn't be able to cover their operating costs, much less maintenance or capital improvements.

Roadways are nothing like self-sustaining. In addition to general funds being used to pay much of the cost of ongoing maintenance, someone has to pay for police to respond to accidents, EMTs, fire department, etc. There are many external costs associated with a thousand Tennesseeans dying in crashes every year and many thousands more being injured. There are enormous externalities associated with health issues caused by air pollution, or the high proportion (over 50% in Houston) of city land dedicated to parking lots and roadways instead of productive purposes, which in turn necessitates expensive water runoff management and exacerbates floods. And the induced sprawl-based development pattern results in a more expensive price for everything from water to electricity to data service, which are subsidized by dense areas to be piped or wired out to sparsely-populated areas.

It's true though that transit programs cost money. There are very few systems in the world whose ticket sales cover their operating costs, much less capital costs. But for some reason, all over the world, every city of any size makes that tradeoff. The reason seems obvious to me. Growing cities that continue to rely on personal vehicles turn into unpleasant, grinding, traffic-jammed seas of asphalt. Cities with nice transit systems are more fun, and attract quality businesses and residents because they provide that amenity.

[Binbin98]

I agree that nashville needs transit 100% especially light rail, but I find it really funny whenever I hear how bad nashville traffic is. In all honesty it's fine compared to where I live now or places I've been before. I mean I literally had to get out of my taxi today and walk to school because traffic is that bad over on this side of the pond.  That being said I think nashville traffic issue could get much worse with all the projected growth and transit is a must

 

[markhollin]

Nashville Mayor Megan Barry plans to unveil a long-awaited transit plan — including details on a referendum to raise taxes for a project that could cost billions — to city leaders on Oct. 17.

An invitation to supporters obtained by The Tennessean highlights the launch of "Let's Move Nashville: Metro's Transportation Solution," for Oct. 17 at 10:45 a.m. at Music City Center.

http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2017/10/10/nashville-mayor-megan-barry-sets-date-unveil-long-awaited-transit-plan/752161001/

[markhollin]

A telephone poll financed last week by Mayor Barry’s campaign committee, obtained by The Tennessean, found that 57 percent of respondents support a plan for mass transit projects, including light rail, that would be paid for by a combination of higher sales taxes, hotel taxes, car registration fees, and business taxes. The poll found 37 percent in opposition.

http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2017/10/12/mayor-megan-barry-mass-transit-poll-nashville/758478001/

[MidTenn1]

Looks like the 'underground' portion of the transit plan will go north-south with a station under the Music City Central transit hub and another 'near Lafayette Street south of downtown' according to the Tennessean.

Quote

The idea would seemingly be for future transit entering downtown from the south on corridors such as Murfreesboro Pike and Nolensville Pike to connect to the south end of the tunnel. Light rail along Gallatin Pike and Charlotte Avenue would enter the tunnel on the north end near Music City Central.

 

Edited October 14, 2017 by PHofKS

[BnaBreaker]

6 minutes ago, PHofKS said:

Looks like the 'underground' portion of the transit plan will go north-south with a station under the Music City Central transit hub and another 'near Lafayette Street south of downtown' according to the Tennessean.

 

Hold up... they want to spend all that money needlessly burying the light rail, and after all that, they're only going to have two relatively out of the way (as downtown is concerned) stations serving the entire CBD??  That makes absolutely no sense to me.

[titanhog]

I hope this happens.  If we're able to go underground...and we find that it's not as cost-prohibitive as once thought because of new technology...maybe it will lead to a subway system in the future, which, to me would be REAL mass transit.

[Neigeville2]

1 hour ago, BnaBreaker said:

Hold up... they want to spend all that money needlessly burying the light rail, and after all that, they're only going to have two relatively out of the way (as downtown is concerned) stations serving the entire CBD??  That makes absolutely no sense to me.

You start small.  Once we've gone underground I expect more will eventually follow, but that first step is a doozy, as far as getting people to go along. 

And it's hardly needless, there's no room for a train on most of those streets DT, and this will greatly reduce the number of cars and pedestrians hit by trains, and allow the trains to travel at a fairly high speed instead of creeping along in traffic. 

[Pdt2f]

They need an additional stop near Commerce St, between 2nd and 7th avenues. If they only had 3 in the entire Sobro-CBD, Lafayette-Commerce-Music City Central would be the places to put them. 

[MLBrumby]

More on the "subway" (ok, what else do you call it? Light rail underground? Sub-light rail?  Light Rail Tube?)...    http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2017/10/13/downtown-tunnelunderground-tunnel-through-downtown-nashville-expected-mayor-megan-barrys-transit-pla/762883001/