The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[SoundScan]

28 minutes ago, Pdt2f said:

I think the plan itself is fine, although I have qualms about the light rail and subway tunnel as far as proper use of taxpayer funds. Here are my two primary complaints/worries:

1. Projects this large tend to run over cost estimates, and I'm worried that the cost overruns will cripple city finances in the future. Mayor Barry can make grand plans for transit that will happen 20 years from now, but by that time it won't be her problem when her successors have to deal with a $20 billion boondoggle with no source of funding. Before I vote for this I'll have to be assured that the finances are sound. 

2. I know this isn't the Mayor's problem, it's more regional, but I really wish we'd start some more legs of the Music City Star- primarily to M'boro, Williamson County, Clarksville, and Sumner County. I realize this could be primarily an issue with the surrounding counties avoiding paying their share but I think mass transit to the surrounding counties would do the most to lessen traffic problems in Nashville. This issue wouldn't keep me from voting for the Mayor's plan, though, since it's a regional issue and not a city issue. 

I agree 100% with your first point. As for the second relating to commuter rail to the suburbs, I think it's a bit of chicken and egg. We've talked on here before that in order for commuter rail to make sense there must be secondary transit systems (bus, light rail, etc.) in place to deal with those riders coming into the city--you can't just drop them off at the central downtown terminal and say good luck getting to your office 1.5 miles away. I think Mayor Barry is anticipating that if Metro gets this plan moving forward that the surrounding counties and communities will see that as the "go ahead" signal that they are safe to start planning on their own connections into the central Metro transit systems without worrying that they'd end up building a "railway to nowhere."

[Guest]

I have been quiet on this plan (boondoggle?) waiting to see the final price details...wowzer. 

The only part of the plan I love is the referendum. If the people of Davidson Co. want plan, then my objections are really irrelevant. An earlier comment hit it on the head.....if passed, Barry has no ownership of a less than ideal outcome.

on the other hand, the corporate community does seem to be driving the agenda...illustrated by the addition of a golden tunnel....long considered unworkable.

[12Mouth]

11 minutes ago, Rockatansky said:

Transit doesn't significantly reduce congestion. It does  make it easier and more efficient for the average citizen to maneuver around town - if they use transit.

And if the transit is not sitting in the same congestion. So much of the success/failure of this plan is really going to be how "rapid" the rapid buses are. Signal priority will help some, but the engineering of the areas of dedicated lanes (which will no doubt cause political battles) and frequency of service will determine if people actually utilize this as a system. I fear that what we will really end up with after 15 years and 5.2 billion dollars are 3 beautiful light rail lines heading downtown and essentially the same mostly crappy underutilized bus system. 

[FromParkAveToTN]

I'm paying enough to benefit the community.   I would like to retire at some point in my life.  I don't want to give all my money away to things I will never use.

[SoundScan]

1 hour ago, FromParkAveToTN said:

I'm paying enough to benefit the community.   I would like to retire at some point in my life.  I don't want to give all my money away to things I will never use.

Which community do you plan to utilize when you're retired and no longer paying (as much) money to benefit the community?

[volsfanwill]

I like it. 

I shall make a few observations and answer a few comments:

The distance from Lafayette to James Robertson along 5th is 1.27 miles. That is the maximum. The tunnel will not end directly on those streets so it will ace be shorter.  Not 2 miles 

The sudden end on Charlotte is a good start, I would bet that they already anticipate an extension to white Bridge at least. 

The stub to TSU seems like an addition to make someone happy. 

As thoroughly discussed on this board. The largest obstacle to surrounding counties is CSX

Seattle has a downtown transit tunnel. It started for busses, but was built to accommodate trains. It has had both for a while now. As they increase train service, busses are being phased out of the tunnel. The same could happen here.  

 

I have more thoughts but not enough time on my lunch break to type them all. 

 

[Will]

17 hours ago, PruneTracy said:

Frankly, it seems a misapplication of $5.2 billion. For that amount, Nashville could have several true BRT lines with dedicated ROW that would attract more riders from more areas.

Quite true. This plain fails to address the four biggest issues I see as an occasional user of our existing transit system:

1. Lack of frequency: The plan claims frequency will be increased to 15 mins on key routes. This will not move the needle. It needs to be at least every 5 mins to compete with other transportation options and offer a choice that doesn't have to be planned around.

2. Hub-and-spoke model: The undefined "more crosstown routes" aside, this plan seems to dig further into our hub-and-spoke rut. It is not clear what the neighborhood transportation centers contribute other than continuing to expedite people downtown. As long as I have to route through downtown to get almost anywhere other than on a limited axis from where I am, our system will continue to be supbar.

3. Too many stops on key routes: I don't see any mention of this problem at all. There are literally stops every 100 feet or so on some stretches of West End. When traffic is heavy, you might as well walk.

4. Antiquated fare collection: On the buses I ride, there is no contactless payment option. Buses should stop accepting paper and coin currency; it slows service down tremendously when 5 people are digging for change after getting on. I see no mention of this issue in the plan.

Just fixing those issues, without even talking about BRT, would give us a transit system that works for the majority of Nashvillians. I cannot see how a tunnel and light rail should even enter the conversation until we've fixed these things. Vote no in May.

[nashwatcher]

45 minutes ago, volsfanwill said:

I like it. 

I shall make a few observations and answer a few comments:

The distance from Lafayette to James Robertson along 5th is 1.27 miles. That is the maximum. The tunnel will not end directly on those streets so it will ace be shorter.  Not 2 miles 

The sudden end on Charlotte is a good start, I would bet that they already anticipate an extension to white Bridge at least. 

The stub to TSU seems like an addition to make someone happy. 

As thoroughly discussed on this board. The largest obstacle to surrounding counties is CSX

Seattle has a downtown transit tunnel. It started for busses, but was built to accommodate trains. It has had both for a while now. As they increase train service, busses are being phased out of the tunnel. The same could happen here.  

 

I have more thoughts but not enough time on my lunch break to type them all. 

 

Agree. The tunnel could adapt as our needs change in the years to come. Will give us a solid foundation to build off of. 

[smeagolsfree]

4 hours ago, FromParkAveToTN said:

I work from home so how is this going to help me?

I tunnel downtown is a waste. Downtown isn't big enough to justify the expense. If someone can't walk from one end of downtown you the other end, then they are just lazy. 

If they had those high end stores you want downtown, then you would be taking transit into town so you could shop your little self to death. With all the packages you would be carrying, you would be complaining the stop is not close enough.

On a serious not the tunnel is going to mean quick access for people to carry their luggage from the hotels close to the CC and get on the train to the airport.

This is not just to connect from one end of downtown to another, it is to bring all the transit into one hub from all points. Lazy has nothing to do with it.

[AronG]

44 minutes ago, Will said:

Quite true. This plain fails to address the four biggest issues I see as an occasional user of our existing transit system:

1. Lack of frequency: The plan claims frequency will be increased to 15 mins on key routes. This will not move the needle. It needs to be at least every 5 mins to compete with other transportation options and offer a choice that doesn't have to be planned around.

2. Hub-and-spoke model: The undefined "more crosstown routes" aside, this plan seems to dig further into our hub-and-spoke rut. It is not clear what the neighborhood transportation centers contribute other than continuing to expedite people downtown. As long as I have to route through downtown to get almost anywhere other than on a limited axis from where I am, our system will continue to be supbar.

3. Too many stops on key routes: I don't see any mention of this problem at all. There are literally stops every 100 feet or so on some stretches of West End. When traffic is heavy, you might as well walk.

4. Antiquated fare collection: On the buses I ride, there is no contactless payment option. Buses should stop accepting paper and coin currency; it slows service down tremendously when 5 people are digging for change after getting on. I see no mention of this issue in the plan.

Just fixing those issues, without even talking about BRT, would give us a transit system that works for the majority of Nashvillians. I cannot see how a tunnel and light rail should even enter the conversation until we've fixed these things. Vote no in May.

Some valid points, but running buses every 5 minutes when they have no way to move through traffic would accomplish nothing. No amount of improvement to existing service will move the needle if it doesn't have dedicated lanes. Which means either Bus Rapid Transit or Light Rail. And they made a run at Bus Rapid Transit and it went down hard, so here we are.

[nashvillwill]

6 hours ago, Will said:

Quite true. This plain fails to address the four biggest issues I see as an occasional user of our existing transit system:

1. Lack of frequency:

2. Hub-and-spoke model:

3. Too many stops on key routes: 

4. Antiquated fare collection:

 

Vote no in May.

1. You’re right. Many routes suffer from this. I believe this is a supply/demand result. 

2. That’s the exact way our city is laid out. It’s less than ideal for transit. I would like to see MTA make an honest effort to buck the system here, but I get that it’s hard to do. 

3. A point of frustration for many riders. The express busses (or “BRT lite”) is supposed to resolve this by making only express stops. I don’t have enough experience to know how well it has worked out. 

4. Spot on here! I think this could be the single most pressing issue. It’s likely what keeps many would-be first time riders away. I am glad to see that they brought back free transfers.  Wheel-and-spoke with no free transfers is for the birds. 

[jmtunafish]

Headline in today's NBJ:

Should TDOT help with mass transit? 

Mayor Megan Barry this week revealed her $5.2 billion plan for mass transit in Nashville, and while the plan looks to tax increases and federal grants for funding, it would be impossible for the Tennessee Department of Transportation not to be at the planning table since many of Nashville's main roads are controlled by the state, not Metro.

With the attention in Nashville on mass transit, we wanted to get a quick sense of how the candidates vying to become Tennessee's next governor look at the issue. The Nashville Business Journal asked, "What role, if any, should the Tennessee Department of Transportation play when it comes to mass transit?"

Check back in the coming days, as we ask the candidates how their administration would handle incentives.

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2017/10/19/should-tdot-help-with-mass-transit-heres-what-the.html

I, for one, think TDOT should help.  After all, it's the Tennessee Department of Transportation, not the Tennessee Department of Roads.

[AronG]

http://nashvillepublicradio.org/post/nashville-leaders-hope-big-ticket-transit-will-inspire-surrounding-counties

[titanhog]

2 minutes ago, AronG said:

http://nashvillepublicradio.org/post/nashville-leaders-hope-big-ticket-transit-will-inspire-surrounding-counties

Part of the problem is that the counties really can't do a whole lot on their own.  It has to be a regional plan...or at least, two counties (say...Davidson and Rutherford) talking to one another and coming up with a plan.  A county can't just decide to build some type of mass transit line into Davidson County without Davidson being part of the talks.  In other words, Davidson County HAS to be involved in any county plans for mass transit INTO Davidson County.  There is going to have to be someone along the way that brings all of these cities / counties together to the bargaining table to make this ever happen.

[PruneTracy]

2 hours ago, jmtunafish said:

I, for one, think TDOT should help.  After all, it's the Tennessee Department of Transportation, not the Tennessee Department of Roads.

TDOT provides quite a bit of assistance to public transit, it just tends to be the unsexy stuff like paratransit and rural access. You may also recall that they gave MTA a lot of leeway in proposing changes to West End Avenue (a state route and a US Numbered Highway to boot) for the Amp.

http://www.tn.gov/tdot/topic/Office-of-Public-Transportation

The problem TDOT has with funding transit programs is the same they have with funding road construction. It's very difficult politically for the state agency to allocate a large share of their resources towards Tennessee's urban areas, regardless of where the citizens are or where the revenue comes from. They have to make the state reps happy.

[FromParkAveToTN]

So, I went out for lunch today and had to maneuver around a lot of construction projects and, as a result,  I've decided that this Mass-transit plan isn't a good time for me. That's all.

[smeagolsfree]

Instead of the tunnel running below 5th, there is an alternative and that would be to close 5th Ave off to auto traffic and do pedestrian and light rail on that street.

This would be similar to what is on 16th Street in Denver. It would not be popular with the businesses at first, but if it worked like 16th, then it would be a boon for business along that stretch.

The only issue is the street is already built out, but any vacant buildings, lots or first floor garages would be a hot commodity.

[Neigeville2]

^Can you think of an example anywhere but Denver where that has worked?  I'm pretty sure closing off streets to cars has generally failed everywhere it's been tried.  Chicago closed off State St. for a while and gave up on it, and there's more to draw people to State St. than 5th.  From what I could see, Denver's 16th Ave buses are mostly shuttling tourists up and down the  street, it's more like setting up Broadway with free shuttle buses that run constantly from the riverfront to I-40 and back. 

Also the block between Charlotte and Deaderick looks on google maps to be only about 185 feet long, shorter than a 4 car train.  There may be some way to time the lights on both streets so that a train isn't hanging out in the middle of the intersection, but when there are 4 light rail lines converging here at peak commuting times, I don't think 5th has the capacity.

Has anyone seen details on the proposed width of the tunnel?  I would hope for something wide enough to run electric buses free of traffic, as well as trains.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Neigeville2

[nashwatcher]

10 hours ago, Neigeville2 said:

 

Has anyone seen details on the proposed width of the tunnel?  I would hope for something wide enough to run electric buses free of traffic, as well as trains.

Agree. I'm assuming they'll make the tunnel wide enough for many options as well as future expansion.  

What odds do you guys think the Mass Transit Proposal has of passing in May? My concern is that the people who are against it that I've talked to are fervent and more likely to vote than the people who believe it will help our city grow and increase the overall quality of life. 60%?

[smeagolsfree]

Here are 5 examples:

 

https://sustainablog.org/2012/07/5-great-pedestrian-malls/

 

I will say these do not work everywhere and the failure rate is high, but in Nashville we already have a huge amount of pedestrian traffic in the area and it would survive due to that alone.

[Pdt2f]

2 hours ago, nashwatcher said:

Agree. I'm assuming they'll make the tunnel wide enough for many options as well as future expansion.  

What odds do you guys think the Mass Transit Proposal has of passing in May? My concern is that the people who are against it that I've talked to are fervent and more likely to vote than the people who believe it will help our city grow and increase the overall quality of life. 60%?

Most of the response I've seen online is negative, along with most of the response from people I've talked to around town. I personally haven't made up my mind. The issue I think a lot of people are having is that the transit plan doesn't seem to do enough about traffic issues. Transit to spur and help develop depressed parts of town is all good and well, but Davidson county is an big place and it's a tough sell to get someone in Bellevue or hermitage to vote themselves a tax increase so that Murfreesboro Pike has better access to other parts of town. People tend to vote their own economic self interests, and the mayor will have to sell this to people the right way to get it to pass. 

Edit: I have no way of knowing if the online response is actually from Nashvillians.  

Edited October 20, 2017 by Pdt2f

[nashwatcher]

The majority of people i've spoken to face to face want mass transit. That being said, the few that were against it were fervently against it (they also said our city is going to hell...so it might be their mentality in general)

Hopefully those that see it's value to the whole will get out to vote. This plan doesn't come near where i live or work, but I see it's long term value and realize it will help alleviate some pressure as the next million people come to Nashville

[jmtunafish]

This reminds me of when I lived in Mississippi (ugh).   The public schools were crumbling, but referendum after referendum to raise taxes for new schools kept failing because those with money (usually white people) kept voting down tax increases since their kids went to private schools (it's a Mississippi thing).  Finally, the school board held open houses at the public schools and encouraged the entire community to come see for themselves just how awful the schools were.  It worked.  At the next referendum, the vote was overwhelmingly "yes" to increase taxes to pay for new schools.

A rising tide lifts all boats.  Having excellent public schools benefits everyone, even those who don't have kids.  Likewise, a viable and highly functional public transportation network will benefit everyone, even those who will never use it.

[Guest]

Observation 1 - Voting for taxes does not necessarily increase the quality of education.

Observation 2 - The mayor must be planning one hell of a PR campaign...she seems very confident of the referendum passing. 

Opinion 1 - I will probably vote for the referendum.In total I fully believe the mass-transit plan (especially the tunnel) to encounter both cost over-runs and massive delays.  However, I can see the chamber-metrogov't alliance pushing something through eventually.  My logic in supporting the current plan is the taxes as announced have the least impact on me versus a property tax increase or a special tax overlay. I choose to dodge the bullet but take the shiv!

[Edgefield D]

This transportation proposal reminds of when the Titans stadium was built.  There was a vote...I remember having the vote Yes sign in my yard when I lived in Woodbine and all of my neighbors (who were all old, working class and white at the time...not a stereotype just a reflection of what was) were fiercely against it. In the end...it passed easily if I'm remembering correctly. I'm not saying this will pass or if it does it will pass easily. I'm ok with what the majority of Davidson County voters decide. I'm for it, but I'm having the same thoughts and feelings I did back when the stadium was approved. Nashville is where it is because it's had good leadership and the majority of it's citizens are fairly progressive minded. This isn't meant as a slam or to criticize a differing opinion....I'm just not super worried that the right thing won't be done...whatever that is. This is a HUGE proposal and I'm sure there will be some strong opinions on both sides, but it's exciting either way.