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The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread


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4 minutes ago, PaulChinetti said:

"...the arrival of driverless cars will make the light rail and bus system obsolete before the construction is complete..."

From a comment on the Tennessean article. 

I think driverless cars will eventually be a viable alternative but just taking people out from behind the wheel doesn't solve a congestion problem of if everyone is still in a car by themselves. 

Even proponents of driverless cars say we are 20 years away.

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4 hours ago, PaulChinetti said:

"...the arrival of driverless cars will make the light rail and bus system obsolete before the construction is complete..."

From a comment on the Tennessean article. 

I think driverless cars will eventually be a viable alternative but just taking people out from behind the wheel doesn't solve a congestion problem of if everyone is still in a car by themselves. 

NYC is the closest example to a city with driverless cars - you get in an uber/cab and get out. You don't deal with parking etc. NYC has terrible traffic, even with all the subways, but at least with the subways you are getting where you need to be faster.

Point being, I cannot stand the "driverless cars will solve everything" assertion. I also don't think we need 26 miles of light rail... we need a medium of both. 

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3 minutes ago, nashvylle said:

NYC is the closest example to a city with driverless cars - you get in an uber/cab and get out. You don't deal with parking etc. NYC has terrible traffic, even with all the subways, but at least with the subways you are getting where you need to be faster.

Point being, I cannot stand the "driverless cars will solve everything" assertion. I also don't think we need 26 miles of light rail... we need a medium of both. 

So not 26 miles, then 13... ha. Just kidding.
 

But seriously in the meantime while we wait for driverless cars, what do you think should be done about mass transportation?

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4 hours ago, FromParkAveToTN said:

I guess I'll vote in favor of the transit plan since property taxes are not increasing. All the other taxes won't really hit me other than buying groceries and I'm vegetarian so my grocery bill is pretty low anyway.  I'll buy big ticket items from another State when/If I need them. I also work from home so I'm good.

Oh just you wait. A property tax rate hike will come soon enough, just not as part of this referendum. 

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1 hour ago, nashvylle said:

NYC is the closest example to a city with driverless cars - you get in an uber/cab and get out. You don't deal with parking etc. NYC has terrible traffic, even with all the subways, but at least with the subways you are getting where you need to be faster.

Point being, I cannot stand the "driverless cars will solve everything" assertion. I also don't think we need 26 miles of light rail... we need a medium of both. 

I don't think that individual driverless cars will solve anything (though they will bring certain efficiencies with parking and freeway travel). The question to me is really around low-medium capacity autonomous rideshare  vs. fixed route transit (at least within the USD).  It seems to me that Uber, Lyft, and a host of other companies will have the ability to prioritize travel for 10-15 passenger minibuses relatively soon. While widespread level 4 autonomous vehicle adoption will likely be 20 (if not 30) years away, I suspect that we will see rideshare fleets transition much sooner, and certainly before Nashville is finished building out the proposed lightrail network. When this does happen, the cost of a single trip should theoretically plummet.  Uberpool for me is now under$5/ride with a driver and 0-1 other passengers. They should be able to get these prices well below the cost of public transit with 10 passengers and no driver (or possibly a subscription model).

If it is cheaper for me to do this, and I have no transfer (so it is presumably faster or equivalent in time), I can't see myself (or possibly anyone) ever using public transit. The only advantage that public transit has at that point is if it can run in a dedicated lane or change traffic signals. So, rather than lay down a bunch of rail, I would ask why we are not putting down dedicated lane BRT everywhere right now that can run for the next 10-15 years (or however long this takes) that can be converted into exclusive lanes for autonomous rideshare pool vehicles. It seems to me that our options as a city are to fight a losing battle by creating fixed transit lines or build out infrastructure to facilitate a public-private partnership. 

Am I wrong here? I'm certain there are others on this board who know far more than I do about this. I'm also quite certain that this sort of mass mid-capacity transit becomes less viable when density reaches a certain point. But is Nashville going to reach that density point in the next 100-150 years? 

I really want to support this transit plan in my heart, but my head is having trouble getting there.

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33 minutes ago, PaulChinetti said:

My biggest concern would be relying on a private company, Uber for example. They burn billions of dollars a year. I'm not even sure they have ever  turned a profit. 

https://www.ft.com/content/09278d4e-579a-11e7-80b6-9bfa4c1f83d2

"During the past four quarters, Uber’s operating losses were more than $3.3bn on a measure that excludes interest, tax and share-based compensation"

Uber goes under then your citizens have no way to get around, if you partnered with them exclusively as an example.

Sure - I get that, but there are dozens of companies preparing to attack (or actively attacking)  this space  right now, and presumably we would not need to choose one to partner with. And like I said, if things don't pan out, or take longer, we still have dedicated lane BRT in operation. 

34 minutes ago, PaulChinetti said:

I think my biggest plus for light rail is it gives fixed points for people and developers to build and congregate around. Which would make the rail work even better. 

I guess I get this? But alternatively, non fixed-route transit can accommodate transit wherever development is already happening. Plus, would the separated lane BRT not accomplish both goals? I mean, presumably, if the BRT is working, it could keep running coexist with automated minibuses in those dedicated lanes, right? And theoretically cost much less.

But not so with rail.

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8 minutes ago, 12Mouth said:

Plus, would the separated lane BRT not accomplish both goals? I mean, presumably, if the BRT is working, it could keep running coexist with automated minibuses in those dedicated lanes, right? And theoretically cost much less.

It seems I say this all the time, but there is not a functional difference between BRT and light rail. You can get the same capacities at the same speeds with one or the other.

The real difference, to channel @Dale (while using real-life cost comparisons between BRT and LRT), is that one is a $5 burger and the other is a $13 burger. There are people out there who insist they will only eat the $13 burger, but still want to split the check evenly. I think they need to pay for their own %#&@ing burger.

Edited by PruneTracy
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Honestly, I would be fine with metro laying out dedicated lanes throughout the entire city (in neighborhoods that would be receptive of them of course). Direct dedicated lane from downtown to Vandy to Airport. 

On these lines, the existing buses would have much faster service being that they would not be in traffic.

Metro could charge a fee for car pools and other ride sharing services (in easily identifiable cars). These ride sharing services would also enjoy not being in traffic, and could have the benefit of getting out of dedicated lanes if needed.

Metro could partner with large companies like HCA, Bridgestone, Asurion could pay for the right to use the dedicated lanes with cars/buses carrying  their employees in and out of downtown to certain areas. Could be a great marketing tool for companies relocating in the downtown area. 

Theoretically, this transit implementation could cost of $0. I would like to think we could buy more modern buses and spend money for painting the dedicated lanes, all for about $20MM dollars. 

 

Edited by nashvylle
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By virtue of you wanting to pick their pocket all voices should be in the room.....if you are paying you are playing...

 

35 minutes ago, BnaBreaker said:

I can respect that point of view.  There are also those out there though who insist that since they aren't hungry, then nobody gets to eat, and that view I cannot respect.  As long as people agree with the general notion that we need vastly improved mass transit, then there should be a spot at the table for them to put forth their ideas about how/when/where it should be implemented.  If, however, someone doesn't even think our lack of mass transit is a problem, then I don't even want them in the room, quite frankly.

 

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4 hours ago, PaulChinetti said:

My biggest concern would be relying on a private company, Uber for example. They burn billions of dollars a year. I'm not even sure they have ever  turned a profit. 

https://www.ft.com/content/09278d4e-579a-11e7-80b6-9bfa4c1f83d2

"During the past four quarters, Uber’s operating losses were more than $3.3bn on a measure that excludes interest, tax and share-based compensation"

Uber goes under then your citizens have no way to get around, if you partnered with them exclusively as an example.

 

I think my biggest plus for light rail is it gives fixed points for people and developers to build and congregate around. Which would make the rail work even better. 

I can't read your link, but I read somewhere that Uber's revenue only covers about 40% of their operating expenses, which makes it seem kind of like a scam on their investors, not surprising given the apparent craziness of their founder, Travis Kalanick.   Lyft has never made a profit.  These services, like self-driving cars, may have been oversold.  I'm old enough to remember when atomic power was going to make electricity free!  It's fun to get excited about a new technology, but don't bet the farm, especially when someone is making billions promoting a concept that isn't turning a profit "yet".  It may be that  they will never be profitable.

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12 hours ago, FromParkAveToTN said:

I guess I'll vote in favor of the transit plan since property taxes are not increasing. All the other taxes won't really hit me other than buying groceries and I'm vegetarian so my grocery bill is pretty low anyway.  I'll buy big ticket items from another State when/If I need them. I also work from home so I'm good.

bruh. what happened to the job in the at+t building?

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22 hours ago, titanhog said:

I'm done.  Not visiting this thread anymore.  Always turns political.  Facebook's got nothing on this thread.

Discussing the transit plan without political discourse is like trying to drive your car after you run out of gas. You could give it a try, but it won't really work. No one has said anything crass in response to others yet (though, let's be honest, we have seen it happen before).  As a 20 year old college student,  I like to read taxpayers' concerns regarding something they might end up footing the bill for. I understand many of you may prefer to visit the Transit thread for updates, but I confess to enjoying the back-and-forth nature of the commentary. What you all have to say foments my understanding of local politics. 

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24 minutes ago, nativetenn said:

Discussing the transit plan without political discourse is like trying to drive your car after you run out of gas. You could give it a try, but it won't really work. No one has said anything crass in response to others yet (though, let's be honest, we have seen it happen before).  As a 20 year old college student,  I like to read taxpayers' concerns regarding something they might end up footing the bill for. I understand many of you may prefer to visit the Transit thread for updates, but I confess to enjoying the back-and-forth nature of the commentary. What you all have to say foments my understanding of local politics. 

I think what Titanhog was lamenting was the repeated Koch-Soros debate. Which, if anyone is interested in continuing, @nashville_bound started a thread in the coffeehouse about self interest in politics a couple of weeks ago. 

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48 minutes ago, grilled_cheese said:

Toll booths at every entrance of Davidson County.

Oh, you don't like our policies and actively meddle in our affairs and decisions but still want to come here to work and play?  Pay me.

Oh, you want to go to a show at the Ryman, Bridgestone, Cannery, Mercy, Marathon Music Works?  Pay me.

Oh, you want to come and see the Preds, Titans, Nashville SC?  Pay me.  This one is even more egregious since we subsidize these teams and the suburbanites get to reap the benefits without any type of contribution except for the price of a ticket.

Damn! it was easier than this to get in to see the Great and Powerful Oz.

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