The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[Guest]

I also smoetimes breathe through my mouth! I am not sure if I am a bumpkin... I will check and get back to the board... and what is a fudge off? Like a cake walk?

[Pdt2f]

http://www.wsmv.com/story/37826373/new-group-pushing-for-alternative-transit-plan-for-nashville

“Their other point of contention is that the plan is not regional. The group says the plan is focused on Metro Nashville alone, so it will only benefit a small percentage of commuters.”

Well if the needs of commuters are what is important to this group they should set about convincing the surrounding counties to fund some regional transit plans, instead of trying to tank an internal Davidson plan. We’re all not going to show up, wait in line, and vote ourselves tax increases to make the commute from Murfreesboro easier. 

[PaulChinetti]

Did this group not see the other day where the regional governments approved of the plan?

The outer regions aren't going to build transit if there is nothing to connect to in Davidson county!!

[henburg]

8 minutes ago, PaulChinetti said:

Did this group not see the other day where the regional governments approved of the plan?

The outer regions aren't going to build transit if there is nothing to connect to in Davidson county!!

 

That's the main thing that really bothers me about that criticism of the plan. Say we built a hypothetical regional rail system branching out to the other counties. How would people move around once they get downtown without any sort of transit infrastructure there? Hope to compete with hundreds of other people trying to call an uber? We have to start somewhere and I'm not sure how else you could do it. 

[Guest]

Anecdotal for sure, but I had lunch with an HCA executive and a Lifeway executive yesterday; both commute from White House to work in Capital View offices. On average, they spend 45 min. driving in and 40 min. returning home. We discussed many items including the transit plan and the tax increases. Already they drive to The KY line for large purchases or weekly grocery shopping to take advantage of the sales tax benefits. They absolutely would not train into a downtown station and then bus or 'light-rail' to their offices due to the increased travel time and the loss of their vehicle during the day. I think these are typical Nashville commuters....regional transportation is not a priority. 
And I must say...with our Metro budget shortfall and the Metro Nashville Schools shortfall...I am not convinced the city is proposing a wise investment.

 

[grilled_cheese]

I'm shocked to hear that executives claim that they will not use public trans!

On 3/26/2018 at 7:57 PM, nativetenn said:

A little disheartened to be reading the apathetic comments directed toward everyone not in the Nashville metro area. I grew up in Nashville and would personally love to see the rest of the state live up to its potential. From Memphis to the Tri-Cities, I want every city in Tennessee to perform well. I'm sure many of you guys do too, and I don't think everybody responding to this thread believes they are better than the 4 million Tennesseans outside the Nashville MSA simply because they have 615 at the beginning of their phone numbers. 

Lets also not forget: while Nashville pays more than its fair share for the rest of the state, we also get a helping hand from Uncle Sam to fund our infrastructure thanks to states like New Jersey and California. What some of you guys are directing toward other Tennesseans are the exact same feelings that other Americans direct toward all of us.

 

Just my two cents. Not trying to start a fight, as I'm a new member and respect everybody's opinions. I just expected a little more decency from some of the regular posters.

crap like this are why I say things like that.  Bean Station?!?!  Where the hell is that?

[nashvylle]

1 hour ago, PaulChinetti said:

Did this group not see the other day where the regional governments approved of the plan?

The outer regions aren't going to build transit if there is nothing to connect to in Davidson county!!

The complaint is that this current plan stops short of the Davidson County line, so if Williamson and Rutherford counties tie into Davidson County, we still have to connect each county's system. 

[samsonh]

21 minutes ago, nashville_bound said:

Anecdotal for sure, but I had lunch with an HCA executive and a Lifeway executive yesterday; both commute from White House to work in Capital View offices. On average, they spend 45 min. driving in and 40 min. returning home. We discussed many items including the transit plan and the tax increases. Already they drive to The KY line for large purchases or weekly grocery shopping to take advantage of the sales tax benefits. They absolutely would not train into a downtown station and then bus or 'light-rail' to their offices due to the increased travel time and the loss of their vehicle during the day. I think these are typical Nashville commuters....regional transportation is not a priority. 
And I must say...with our Metro budget shortfall and the Metro Nashville Schools shortfall...I am not convinced the city is proposing a wise investment.

 

Let's say these guys are driving to Kentucky for weekly groceries as you say they are. Then let's say they drive 20 miles each way for groceries, and then spend $150 a week. They will save $4.125 in sales tax a week. I hope they get great mileage and don't value their time at all and stop right at the border for groceries! 

 

Also the Metro budget is not increasing because more people won their property tax appeals(remember when I explained how that worked to you).  The school system missed out on some state funds because enrollment was lower than projected, and they have proposed reallocating resources in the new budget. There is absolutely no problem in Metro's budget!

[Bos2Nash]

1 hour ago, PaulChinetti said:

Did this group not see the other day where the regional governments approved of the plan?

The outer regions aren't going to build transit if there is nothing to connect to in Davidson county!!

 

1 hour ago, henburg said:

 

That's the main thing that really bothers me about that criticism of the plan. Say we built a hypothetical regional rail system branching out to the other counties. How would people move around once they get downtown without any sort of transit infrastructure there? Hope to compete with hundreds of other people trying to call an uber? We have to start somewhere and I'm not sure how else you could do it. 

I'm complete agreement with both of you. The people who are against this plan by saying it is not "complete" or "comprehensive" enough are actually anti-transit whether they say they are or not. They are the type of people that are not able to see the bigger picture in that you can't just build a complete network out of thin air. A comprehensive is built from the inside out. Serve those who live in the community first and then build to the outer suburbs. Regional Rail is a long-term investment and when you look at the price tag (either the 5.4 or 9 billion figure) its pennies in terms of having an expansive network. 

Furthermore, I laugh so so hard every time a group comes out and says "lets just use uber and lyft technology". So your solution is to just add MORE cars to the traffic you complain about?? WOW! The argument will be that uber will remove daily commuters and increase carpooling?? Please, studies are already proving uber style companies are increasing congestion.

56 minutes ago, nashville_bound said:

Anecdotal for sure, but I had lunch with an HCA executive and a Lifeway executive yesterday; both commute from White House to work in Capital View offices. On average, they spend 45 min. driving in and 40 min. returning home. We discussed many items including the transit plan and the tax increases. Already they drive to The KY line for large purchases or weekly grocery shopping to take advantage of the sales tax benefits. They absolutely would not train into a downtown station and then bus or 'light-rail' to their offices due to the increased travel time and the loss of their vehicle during the day. I think these are typical Nashville commuters....regional transportation is not a priority. 
And I must say...with our Metro budget shortfall and the Metro Nashville Schools shortfall...I am not convinced the city is proposing a wise investment.

 

So you are telling me executives who are essentially able to have the company pay for their car, expenses and other dumb bonuses would rather spend more time in their car that they dont pay for then on a train system that they do?? Who would've thought that. Public transit is never intended to directly serve every rider (especially the upper class, wealthier ones). Public transit is exactly that, a public entity built and maintained with public funds to serve the greater urban core and outlying neighborhoods. A Regional Rail system is a component of public transit that feeds into a central cores system. Next time you talk to your executive buddies, ask how they enjoy spending the $15 (or $10) uber price to go from Inglewood to downtown, when the public transit system would probably be around $4 or so.

31 minutes ago, nashvylle said:

The complaint is that this current plan stops short of the Davidson County line, so if Williamson and Rutherford counties tie into Davidson County, we still have to connect each county's system. 

The argument I would make here is similar to how some towns pave their roads. Typically a single Public works entity will pave up to about 10'-0" from the town line and stop and that last couple feet would be paid for by both towns. Apply that logic to rail and this what happens as well, with the exception that the rail stop is larger because of the investment behind that rail. Other counties are only going to have to build smaller commuter stations, and lay track. Nashville will be in charge of the larger network collector.

 

In all reality, Nashville is building up the city's transportation. Those against the plan due to its lack of regionalism needs to go bark at the state legislators because Nashville should not foot the bill for the entire middle Tennessee region. Buses will only take us so far, The Uber model is not going to take us far at all.  Autonomous vehicles are just too far out to be a realistic solution. 

[Bos2Nash]

Before arriving in Nashville, There was a project I was following very closely in Boston, the North South Rail Link (NSRL). The project is a 2.8 mile long tunnel that would be bored underneath the central artery tunnel that was about 10 years ago. The cost for such a tunnel, anywhere from 3 to 7 billion. That is a cost to connect an existing rail network together, not just building one from scratch. Granted Boston already has an existing system, but its a system that began in 1897 and has been publicly funded ever since. People complain about 5bn to start a system? Think about all the money that has been pumped into the T over the last 120 years...

[Guest]

I think you just made the strongest argument yet AGAINST the Nashville Transit Plan!

 

9 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

Before arriving in Nashville, There was a project I was following very closely in Boston, the North South Rail Link (NSRL). The project is a 2.8 mile long tunnel that would be bored underneath the central artery tunnel that was about 10 years ago. The cost for such a tunnel, anywhere from 3 to 7 billion. That is a cost to connect an existing rail network together, not just building one from scratch. Granted Boston already has an existing system, but its a system that began in 1897 and has been publicly funded ever since. People complain about 5bn to start a system? Think about all the money that has been pumped into the T over the last 120 years...

 

[WebberThomas4]

1 minute ago, nashville_bound said:

I think you just made the strongest argument yet AGAINST the Nashville Transit Plan!

 

 

[Guest]

To clarify for those a little slower this morning ....

 

28 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

 Think about all the money that has been pumped into the T over the last 120 years...

 

Edited March 28, 2018 by Guest

[WebberThomas4]

6 minutes ago, nashville_bound said:

To clarify for those a little slower....

 

 

Not slower, just read it differently than you.  

[ZestyEd]

18 minutes ago, nashville_bound said:

Granted Boston already has an existing system, but its a system that began in 1897 and has been publicly funded ever since.

I grew up in Boston. The subway was funded and run privately  by West End Railway until 1947 when the MBTA (F.K.A. Metro Transit Authority)  took over.  Mostly all northeast Mass transits started privately until the local governments took them over in the 40's/50's.  

[markhollin]

Interview with Downtown Metro Councilman Freddie O'Connell on the Mass Transit Plan:

https://www.nashvillescene.com/news/features/article/20997248/interview-metro-councilmember-freddie-oconnell-on-the-transit-referendum

[PruneTracy]

3 hours ago, nashville_bound said:

Already they drive to The KY line for large purchases or weekly grocery shopping to take advantage of the sales tax benefits.

They ought to be turned in for evading the use tax.

[samsonh]

11 minutes ago, PruneTracy said:

They ought to be turned in for evading the use tax.

I think Nashville Bound was proposing we institute a state income tax and lower the sales tax 

[BnaBreaker]

3 hours ago, nashville_bound said:

I think you just made the strongest argument yet AGAINST the Nashville Transit Plan!

 

So the strongest argument against the transit plan is 'it sucks that things cost money!'  I'd say that bodes pretty well for the transit plan if that is the case! 

[nashwatcher]

3 hours ago, nashville_bound said:

I think you just made the strongest argument yet AGAINST the Nashville Transit Plan!

 

 

The fact that a mass transit system costs money to operate over a century is the strongest argument against this plan? Were people expecting it to be free?

[Bos2Nash]

4 hours ago, nashville_bound said:

I think you just made the strongest argument yet AGAINST the Nashville Transit Plan!

 

 

 

4 hours ago, nashville_bound said:

To clarify for those a little slower this morning ....

 

 

So what you're saying is that because a 120 year old system that ties into a regional rail network needs constant improvement and investment is an argument against the transit plan. How then, are the people who are saying the plan needs to be more regional from the beginning and do not like the current price tag are in fact pro-transit just anti-plan?  People can claim that they are pro-transit and just want a "better" plan all they want. At the end of the day though, they are trying to keep status quo by kicking the bucket down the road.

3 hours ago, ZestyEd said:

I grew up in Boston. The subway was funded and run privately  by West End Railway until 1947 when the MBTA (F.K.A. Metro Transit Authority)  took over.  Mostly all northeast Mass transits started privately until the local governments took them over in the 40's/50's.  

This is true. In fact, most of the different rail companies in Boston all had their own stub-end stations for years and years until the city built single unified terminals at the north and south points and the rail companies merged together as the rail industry dropped. Major investments, such as the alewife extension on the red line and the orange line de-elevation process, have all been large publicly funded projects for the betterment of the city.

[PaulChinetti]

Things aren't as cheap as they were in 1897! Get the pitchforks everyone! 

It's not like an ever increasing complexity of our underground systems is a problem, and if any service is cut off during construction for any amount of time there are complaints. (See all of us just about above ground construction blocking sidewalks)

I do think there is a problem, when it can be done in other countries for way cheaper, then our system of contractors needs to be looked at long and hard. 

[Guest]

Lots to reply to -

BNA- How does the requirement to spend every more taxpayers funds equate to a reason to support Transit?

WebberThomas4 - Which is why I clarified my point.

ZestyEd - I knew many early mass-transit systems were private endeavors, but I did not know the history of Boston's transit. I much prefer the private model of financing and operating a transit system.

PruneTracy - LOL - Seriously? 

Nashwatcher - The issue to me is we see example after example of mature transit system grow into another center of government waste and inefficiency requiring an ever larger percentage of already limited municipal budgets. One can only take away from the negative reception of my post many on this board desire to give an ever increasing share of their income to to building, expanding, maintaining, operating transit (also see education and public sector pensions).

Bos2Nash - "So what you're saying is that because a 120 year old system that ties into a regional rail network needs constant improvement and investment is an argument against the transit plan."
-Yes, yes I am...

PaulChinetti - My reference was assuming everything goes as planned during construction and operation (which we all know is not going to happen). Already MTA is openly discussing Transit drivers, transit police, custodial crews...then comes the inescapable expansion  of routes, ongoing maintenance issues and neglect (see every grassy median installed by metro ) ... does not end well in my mind. And before barbs star flying, I am a big a Nashville booster as they come....and yes, my vision is different.

 

 

[Tennessine]

7 hours ago, grilled_cheese said:

I'm shocked to hear that executives claim that they will not use public trans!

crap like this are why I say things like that.  Bean Station?!?!  Where the hell is that?

Bean Station is in the middle of nowhere- somewhere in Grainger County I believe. The more isolated the towns are, the more common it is to have ideologues to represent them. Though this is a story neither you nor I could hold back our laughter from, it represents the values a lot of rural folks share among themselves. It may surprise you, but rural Americans are thinking the same thing you are when they see mass protests in urban areas. Though we would call that free speech, they might call it incivility. See where I'm getting at?

Basically, this is a microcosm of the differences between rural and urban areas. I agree with you Nashville needs better transit as soon as possible, and that urban areas make up the majority of our state's population and thus deserve a larger share of the focus. However, it may serve well to remind yourself the importance of rural infrastructure; roads leading to recreational areas, highways that connect factories and warehouses, dams that supply hydroelectric power to the region, etc, etc.  At the end of the day, the isolated counties containing Hicksville and Redneckburg end up being as significant as major cities like Nashville itself. Without our rural counties, Tennessee would instantly lose its comparative advantage in manufacturing among other Southern and Midwestern peer states. Those mouthbreathing hicks you made fun of are the same people working on the line in the factory down the road, eight hours a day, forty hours per week. They're the backbone of the urban economy.

[grilled_cheese]

6 minutes ago, nativetenn said:

Bean Station is in the middle of nowhere- somewhere in Grainger County I believe. The more isolated the towns are, the more common it is to have ideologues to represent them. Though this is a story neither you nor I could hold back our laughter from, it represents the values a lot of rural folks share among themselves. It may surprise you, but rural Americans are thinking the same thing you are when they see mass protests in urban areas. Though we would call that free speech, they might call it incivility. See where I'm getting at?

Basically, this is a microcosm of the differences between rural and urban areas. I agree with you Nashville needs better transit as soon as possible, and that urban areas make up the majority of our state's population and thus deserve a larger share of the focus. However, it may serve well to remind yourself the importance of rural infrastructure; roads leading to recreational areas, highways that connect factories and warehouses, dams that supply hydroelectric power to the region, etc, etc.  At the end of the day, the isolated counties containing Hicksville and Redneckburg end up being as significant as major cities like Nashville itself. Without our rural counties, Tennessee would instantly lose its comparative advantage in manufacturing among other Southern and Midwestern peer states. Those mouthbreathing hicks you made fun of are the same people working on the line in the factory down the road, eight hours a day, forty hours per week. They're the backbone of the urban economy.

I only have a problem with them when they interfere in Nashville politics.  I really wish one of the city reps would put forth legislation that disrupts them specifically or if we could veto something of theirs.  

Regardless, their way of life is about to be over anyway.  Gone are the days of being able to walk out of HS into a manufacturing job and being able to support a family.  Their run will be over soon.

32 minutes ago, nashville_bound said:

PruneTracy - LOL - Seriously?
 

 

Looks like someone is advocating for lawlessness!