The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[Tennessine]

1 minute ago, grilled_cheese said:

I only have a problem with them when they interfere in Nashville politics.  I really wish one of the city reps would put forth legislation that disrupts them specifically or if we could veto something of theirs.  

Regardless, their way of life is about to be over anyway.  Gone are the days of being able to walk out of HS into a manufacturing job and being able to support a family.  Their run will be over soon.

They have a right to elect whoever they want for state legislature. About your second point, that's why we have TN Promise. Associate's degree = more skilled labor force = more companies willing to move to Tennessee.  

[BnaBreaker]

1 hour ago, nashville_bound said:

Lots to reply to -

BNA- How does the requirement to spend every more taxpayers funds equate to a reason to support Transit?

 

I'm sorry, we can certainly debate whether the overall cost is worth while, but 'it costs money' isn't a reason to not implement the transit plan.  I mean, if that's your criteria, then why do we do anything?  Everything requires consistent maintenance and modernization.  You might as well be making that argument against roads and the fire department too.  

[PruneTracy]

1 hour ago, nashville_bound said:

PruneTracy - LOL - Seriously?

I'd have more sympathy if Tennessee was a poorly-managed, high-tax state, or if there were a combination of income tax and sales tax where some gaming of the system was to be expected, or, God forbid, if the state just financed itself through debt.

As it is, this being a PAYGO state, with a government about as fiscally conservative as they come, and a state constitution that prohibits income taxes (which is awesome, BTW), not to mention the Hall tax being phased out, going out of your way to avoid paying the only tax that exists in a state with the nation's third-lowest tax burden seems a butthole move. All the more so since groceries already have a discounted tax rate in Tennessee and these guys don't exactly sound like they're having to dig pennies out of the couch cushions to buy food.

I hate paying taxes as much as the next person, but at some point you have to acknowledge the fact that the state government exists and does need some revenue to function. Plus, I'd rather pay sales tax in a state where I'm eligible to vote than give it to those dastardly Kentuckians running their horse and fried chicken racket up there.

[PaulChinetti]

8 minutes ago, PruneTracy said:

Plus, I'd rather pay sales tax in a state where I'm eligible to vote than give it to those dastardly Kentuckians running their horse and fried chicken racket up there.

"their horse and friend chicken racket"
 

[Guest]

^^ I agree with you in principle, but reality is a b*tch, and there is no way to enforce such a policy/law/statute (what have you) in all but a very small fraction of big ticket violations. Thus, behavioral economics come into play and policy professionals better damn well factor in leakage when a high sales tax state is bordered by 7 states (4 of which have 20%-30% lower sales taxes) and in the case of groceries in KY the Sales Taxes are 0%. 

[Guest]

BNA - You posted - "So the strongest argument against the transit plan is 'it sucks that things cost money!'  I'd say that bodes pretty well for the transit plan if that is the case! "

Your original response was ambiguous and I took your statement to say, you think spending money was a big reason to support transit (which I hope we can both agree it is not).

Thus my response - "BNA- How does the requirement to spend even more taxpayers' funds equate to a reason to support Transit?"

So moot.


 

[NashvilleObserver]

I love the argument of "Do you know how much it will cost in the long run?? Gewd lawd?!"  Can anyone tell me the total cost of the New York City subway system since it started in 1904? Or the London Underground (started in 1863), which has recently started a multi-billion-dollar (pound?) expansion? The costs are ASTRONOMICAL ! But also, can you imagine Manhattan without a subway, (just cabs)? Or London without the Tube (just double deckers) ? Short answer is FUDGE no. These are transit systems that are integrated into cities, and are a part of the identity of these cities. Yes, the cost is exorbitant in the long run, but guess what, that's the cost of living in a big city that needs a well-developed, highly functioning mass-transit system in order to survive. 

If you cannot understand that this is where Nashville is headed, and this is what Nashville is preparing for, then you are clearly oblivious to the expansion and development going on around you. This transit system is what Nashville NEEDS NOW, not only to move people around town, but to lay the foundation for our inevitable future of millions of citizens that have places to go and need some way to get there. 

The truth hurts. Nashville isn't a small town anymore. Sorry if that's a hard pill for you to swallow. The first foundations of a great transit system is expensive, yes, but we need to embrace and overcome that. 

Edited March 29, 2018 by NashvilleObserver

[Nathan_in_DC]

4 hours ago, nashville_bound said:

^^ I agree with you in principle, but reality is a b*tch, and there is no way to enforce such a policy/law/statute (what have you) in all but a very small fraction of big ticket violations. Thus, behavioral economics come into play and policy professionals better damn well factor in leakage when a high sales tax state is bordered by 7 states (4 of which have 20%-30% lower sales taxes) and in the case of groceries in KY the Sales Taxes are 0%. 

The Pennsylvania State Police sets up at the state line, usually with Delaware, in visual range of liquor shops and electronics stores to watch people with Pennsylvania tags cross the state line, go in, buy something, and come back across. They then pull them over, use probable cause to inspect the car, and write tickets for tax evasion/liquor importation.

Don't see why the THP can't do the same...

[Guest]

^ Do you have a news article to reference? I am not doubting your facts, but would like to read about how the enforcement works in PA....my birth state. 

It seems as if any charges are easily disputable. For instance, it is not illegal to cross state borders to buy goods, any state trying to prevent such behavior runs afoul of federal law and interstate commerce. What the state may require is a use tax be paid on goods transported back into the state and even then only the difference between the taxes paid (if any) and the taxes owed. This process is paperwork completed sometime after the fact and not not required to be completed and paid prior to returning to the state of residence. In other words, how does PA prove the accused were not intending to pay the use tax?

 

 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Guest

[Edgefield D]

The whole driving across state lines just never made much sense to me.  So, if my grocery bill is $100...in TN I'll pay up to  $7 in tax. Is it worth driving to KY to buy groceries? Also, prices are not always the same (I've compared when I'm at Kroger up there).  And, my partner and I own a house in Bowling Green (he works up there)....so I kind of have some reason to go up there (but I don't very often).  He also pays KY state income tax and Bowling Green city tax. It comes out to about $9800 per year for him. You can buy a whole lot of stuff in one year and pay $9800 in sales tax....

I know it's a bit off topic....but as it relates to transportation and driving somewhere to save money...it seemed relevant. 

[Guest]

^ relevant points 

The pair live in White House so the economics are different. Also, the wife works in Bowling Green so the travel cost is moot. Again, they do not do all their shopping in KY, only when it makes sense. 

I have not advocated a preference for KYs abhorrent state income tax (bowling green gaining a separate tax is insane). However, it it obvious the greater the differential between state sales tax the greater the ‘leakage’.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Guest

[Nathan_in_DC]

13 hours ago, nashville_bound said:

^ Do you have a news article to reference? I am not doubting your facts, but would like to read about how the enforcement works in PA....my birth state. 

It seems as if any charges are easily disputable. For instance, it is not illegal to cross state borders to buy goods, any state trying to prevent such behavior runs afoul of federal law and interstate commerce. What the state may require is a use tax be paid on goods transported back into the state and even then only the difference between the taxes paid (if any) and the taxes owed. This process is paperwork completed sometime after the fact and not not required to be completed and paid prior to returning to the state of residence. In other words, how does PA prove the accused were not intending to pay the use tax?

 

 

Here's one I found without looking too hard, plus anecdotes of friends being pulled over by the PSP.

https://whyy.org/articles/authorities-bust-illegal-alcohol-transport-from-del-to-pa/

[Guest]

Okay it is a bootlegging law, not a sales tax enforcement issue. Seems they just target those bringing liquor into PA and then reselling it to bars and restaurants...so different from my issue.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/In_Pa_buying_alcohol_over_the_border_makes_you_a_bootlegger.html

 

[Pdt2f]

Completely anecdotal and totally by word of mouth, but I was told once that if you’re caught transporting more than two cartons of cigarettes from New Jersey into New York City, you can be charged with tax evasion since they consider it over a personal consumption amount. I also had a friend whose frat brother claimed he was ticketed for tax evasion (or something of the sort) because he was pulled over with more than like 4 cases of Yuengling entering Tennessee, before they sold it here. The story was that since yuengling didn’t pay the Tennessee alcohol tax and he carried more than a personal consumption amount, they considered it an attempt to sell it and avoid paying the state taxes. I don’t know if any of this is actually true, just thought I’d add my “overly strict tax evasion tickets/prosecution” story to the mix. 

[smeagolsfree]

The police use to regularly pull over drivers coming in to Weber City VA, buy cigarettes and go back into TN. That was 30 years ago. This is just north of Kingsport on US 23. I am not sure if they still do it, but it was the sales tax evasion issue.

[nashwatcher]

The vote is about a month away. What odds are you guys giving Nashville finally getting a mass transit system? I'm saying 60%

Also, the pro transit people need bigger signs in yards/commercial areas like the no transit people have. It's eye catching when you see one of those huge wooden structure signs

[PaulChinetti]

I’ve finally started hearing pro transit commercials on the radio. And saw one on tv the other day. 

I agree @nashwatcher they are really dropping the ball with their sign game I don’t know what gives. Do they not have the money? Poorly organized? I’ve been trying to get a sign for a month!

[Vrtigo]

2 hours ago, PaulChinetti said:

I agree @nashwatcher they are really dropping the ball with their sign game I don’t know what gives. Do they not have the money? Poorly organized? I’ve been trying to get a sign for a month!

Same here. I've requested a sign multiple times and have never received a response.

[smeagolsfree]

A Fox 17 poll had the transit behind by 2 to 1.

[nashwatcher]

12 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

A Fox 17 poll had the transit behind by 2 to 1.

Really? That's terrible news for people who believe our city needs to move on mass transit pronto for it's long term health

[Pdt2f]

20 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

A Fox 17 poll had the transit behind by 2 to 1.

Was it a Facebook poll or a legitimate phone poll? The comments sections of the local news stations tend to be overwhelmingly conservative, which I don’t really mind as a conservative but it does taint the results of polls involving Davidson county matters. 

[MidTenn1]

Was it a scientific poll or was it their 'Question of the Day'? 

 

Edit: Never mind; Pdt beat me to it by seconds.

I've gotta train on the keyboard harder!!!

 

[tragenvol]

24 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

A Fox 17 poll had the transit behind by 2 to 1.

What coverage I've seen from Fox 17 has been anti-transit leaning....in my opinion.  That's my frame of reference...doesn't mean it's anything other than my perception.

Preds are pro-transit.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2018/03/29/nashville-predators-transit-supporters-referendum-tn-tv-ad/471151002/

[WebberThomas4]

The poll wasn’t limited to Davidson County residents and  a lot of the comments on their Facebook page were from people outside of the county. 

[Edgefield D]

My friend at the chamber gave me a transit sign for my yard. I told her there are several people out there that are having trouble getting signs.  She said she would bring that up with them....I'll follow up and see if she found out anything.