The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[MagicPotato]

2 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

I think everyone on this board would agree that the approximate 8 lanes of traffic shown here could totally fit up broadway and do better for and interrupt the businesses less than a deep bore tunnel with station surface construction lol

It probably wouldn't be safe for these guys either  

[henburg]

For a plan that claims to look toward the future, everything shown looks so backwards to me. If there is anything that we've learned about developing efficient urban spaces, its that the dependence on interstates was a bad idea and is not sustainable. I don't want Nashville to turn into this cyberpunk hellscape surrounded by 20 levels of highway in every direction. Give me a break. 

[AronG]

1 hour ago, markhollin said:

This whole plan is obviously ridiculous, but what's sadly mainstream is that it reflects a vision of Nashville as a place that should be designed around easy access for commuters and visitors from the suburbs. I am so tired of it. If people want to live 20 miles away and drive downtown they're welcome to do so, but that's a horrible consideration to build a city around.

This picture is a perfect example of why. Sure, let's occupy several acres of prime downtown real estate, not to mention billions of engineering and construction dollars, to make a rat's nest of asphalt and overpasses that serves to isolate key areas of the city from each other and forces anyone that wants to get anywhere to get in a car to do so. This when all the best places in the world move wildly more people in a fraction of the space with (A) sidewalks and bike lanes, and (B) shared transport (trains & buses), both of which stimulate commercial activity along their routes instead of dead, emptiness with vehicles whizzing through.

And let's be realistic, here's what the "add lanes" strategy really looks like (in Dallas):

 

 

[MagicPotato]

7 minutes ago, AronG said:

This whole plan is obviously ridiculous, but what's sadly mainstream is that it reflects a vision of Nashville as a place that should be designed around easy access for commuters and visitors from the suburbs. I am so tired of it. If people want to live 20 miles away and drive downtown they're welcome to do so, but that's a horrible consideration to build a city around.

This picture is a perfect example of why. Sure, let's occupy several acres of prime downtown real estate, not to mention billions of engineering and construction dollars, to make a rat's nest of asphalt and overpasses that serves to isolate key areas of the city from each other and forces anyone that wants to get anywhere to get in a car to do so. This when all the best places in the world move wildly more people in a fraction of the space with (A) sidewalks and bike lanes, and (B) shared transport (trains & buses), both of which stimulate commercial activity along their routes instead of dead, emptiness with vehicles whizzing through.

And let's be realistic, here's what the "add lanes" strategy really looks like (in Dallas):

 

 

Yep, I wouldn't mind Nashville adding more interstates and highways in certain key areas, but it shouldn't be the main focus. We defiantly need a light rail system that's efficient if we want to be considered a top tier city. 

[BnaBreaker]

12 minutes ago, AronG said:

This whole plan is obviously ridiculous, but what's sadly mainstream is that it reflects a vision of Nashville as a place that should be designed around easy access for commuters and visitors from the suburbs. I am so tired of it. If people want to live 20 miles away and drive downtown they're welcome to do so, but that's a horrible consideration to build a city around.

This picture is a perfect example of why. Sure, let's occupy several acres of prime downtown real estate, not to mention billions of engineering and construction dollars, to make a rat's nest of asphalt and overpasses that serves to isolate key areas of the city from each other and forces anyone that wants to get anywhere to get in a car to do so. This when all the best places in the world move wildly more people in a fraction of the space with (A) sidewalks and bike lanes, and (B) shared transport (trains & buses), both of which stimulate commercial activity along their routes instead of dead, emptiness with vehicles whizzing through.

 

I couldn't agree more.  You said it perfectly.  The only thing I'd add is that it is painfully clear that the folks coming up with all these bungled, hurried, last minute "plans" clearly don't have a clue when it comes to anything to do with traffic management or urban design in general, or even a vague understanding about what the basic purpose of mass transit even is.  In fact, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to learn that they have little to no experience using any form of mass transit anywhere.  I am confident in these assumptions because, as you already alluded to, the only real goal in these alternative plans is to alleviate traffic originating in the suburbs, which mass transit certainly helps with, but is in no way its primary purpose.

Edited April 11, 2018 by BnaBreaker

[PaulChinetti]

That picture of Dallas makes me so sad. How the hell do you go from one side to the next, it doesn't look raised in that many places, that has to have destroyed the neighborhoods on each side.

Good lord, @henburg said "cyberpunk hellscape" that is it in picture form.

[MagicPotato]

As a Nashvillian that recently moved to Dallas, it's fascinating looking at the complexity of the  interstates infrastructure.  The express tolls that interconnects with the underground tunnel works well, but if you're not using the express tolls during rush hour it took  me about an hour and a half to get out of Dallas . They could have been more efficient with their DART light rail train and Bus's. It's decent, but it's only good for certain areas like downtown, uptown, etc.  It needs to be more wide spread and efficient like Seattle's. 

Edited April 11, 2018 by MagicPotato

[AronG]

9 minutes ago, MagicPotato said:

As a Nashvillian that recently moved to Dallas, it's fascinating looking at the complexity of the  interstates infrastructure.  The express tolls that interconnects with the underground tunnel works well, but if you're not using the express tolls during rush hour it took  me about an hour and a half to get out of Dallas . They could have been more efficient with their DART light rail train and Bus's. It's decent, but it's only good for certain areas like downtown, uptown, etc.  It needs to be more wide spread and efficient like Seattle's. 

Visited Dallas a while back and was interested to check out DART, as it's a great reference point for what Nashville is doing. I came away with the perception that it's a great backbone, but they placed most of the lines and stations in empty areas so it's going to take some decades for development to fill in and actually make use of it. Saw some enthusiasts recently (https://www.facebook.com/groups/whatwouldjanejacobsdo/) raving about the additions that are in progress (new downtown line, new Cotton Belt line). So it sounds like they're continuing to invest in it; here's hoping it starts to hold a candle to the amount of resources that have obviously been poured into their road network.

[MagicPotato]

1 minute ago, AronG said:

Visited Dallas a while back and was interested to check out DART, as it's a great reference point for what Nashville is doing. I came away with the perception that it's a great backbone, but they placed most of the lines and stations in empty areas so it's going to take some decades for development to fill in and actually make use of it. Saw some enthusiasts recently (https://www.facebook.com/groups/whatwouldjanejacobsdo/) raving about the additions that are in progress (new downtown line, new Cotton Belt line). So it sounds like they're continuing to invest in it; here's hoping it starts to hold a candle to the amount of resources that have obviously been poured into their road network.

Sounds good, they just need to add more lines to Fort worth, south Dallas, East Dallas, and Denton. I'm surprised that there's only one line to Fort worth and it's barely touching Fort Worth.  Since Fort Worth has the largest amount of commuters coming from Dallas-Fort Worth. Most of the lines are in the Dallas areas excluding East and South.  This is a good example for Nashville, for example the music city star was built towards a terrible location. It should have been built either towards Murfreesboro, Franklin, or Hendersonville. 

[AronG]

BTW, has anybody posted this? It's time!

http://www.nashville.gov/News-Media/News-Article/ID/7411/Davidson-County-Early-Voting-Locations-Open-April-11-26.aspx

http://www.nashville.gov/Portals/0/SiteContent/ElectionCommission/docs/schedules/EVSchedule-180501.pdf

[Rockatansky]

Methinks CM Swope is unfamiliar with induced demand.

20 minutes ago, MagicPotato said:

It should have been built either towards Murfreesboro, Franklin, or Hendersonville. 

It couldn't be without building new rails. MCS was built where it is because of existing infrastructure (spur line) and very low start up costs.

[MagicPotato]

4 minutes ago, Rockatansky said:

Methinks CM Swope is unfamiliar with induced demand.

It couldn't be without building new rails. MCS was built where it is because of existing infrastructure (spur line) and very low start up costs.

Oh okay, that makes sense. I thought they built it in that direction, because of cost. 

[AronG]

BREAKING: There's been a late addition to the visionary Swope plan for the future of Nashville transportation:

[MagicPotato]

2 minutes ago, AronG said:

BREAKING: There's been a late addition to the visionary Swope plan for the future of Nashville transportation:

Real life hot wheels 

[PaulChinetti]

Not enough lanes! Needs to be at least 5 each way.

[MLBrumby]

Where in Dallas is that?  Stemmons? I-35? LBJ? If that's LBJ, then that was taken before the Toll Express lanes were put in. I rode on that for the first time not long ago. 

[MagicPotato]

10 minutes ago, MLBrumby said:

Where in Dallas is that?  Stemmons? I-35? LBJ? If that's LBJ, then that was taken before the Toll Express lanes were put in. I rode on that for the first time not long ago. 

Looks like I-35. The toll lanes are only helpful for people that uses it, ironically.   It sort of reduces traffic...

[jtmonk]

12 minutes ago, MagicPotato said:

Looks like I-35. The toll lanes are only helpful for people that uses it, ironically.   It sort of reduces traffic...

I believe that picture is actually the Katy Freeway in Houston. 

[smeagolsfree]

I am really thinking this is not going to pass.

From Coalition For Neighborhoods

 Neighborhoods Coalition Cannot Support Current Transit Plan
 
 
 After more than two hours of presentations by both proponents and opponents at a
Neighborhoods’ Transit Forum, members of the Coalition FOR Nashville Neighborhoods voted
not to support the transit plan as currently proposed.
 
 “Like many organizations, we are divided on this issue,” said Coalition Chair John
Summers of Sylvan Park.  “While our members recognize more needs to be done to address our
transit issues,” added Summers, “the majority believes this current plan is not the best answer.”
 
 Charlotte Cooper of Green Hills, who facilitated the question and answer session follow
ing the pro and con presentations, listed five major areas of concern:
 First: cost.   The proposed transit plan would double Metro’s debt.  If new revenues are not
sufficient to fund the plan, transit will compete with other essential services for funding.
 Second: traffic congestion.  According to both sides, only a small percentage of
Nashville drivers will move to mass transit, leaving our roads and streets still crowded with cars
-more
For Immediate Release Contact John Summers (615) 415-3016 [email protected]
and trucks.
 Third: funding basis in sales tax.   The proposed one-cent increase in the sales tax, a 10%
increase on the current rate, will give Nashville one of the highest sales tax rates in the nation,
placing an unfair burden on our poor and elderly.
 
 Fourth: Disruption.  Scheduled construction will disrupt our streets and the community
for a decade until the project is built out.
 Fifth: the transit-oriented districts (TODs).  TODs will become drivers for higher
density development along the corridors, accelerating gentrification, the loss of affordable
housing, and disrupting established neighborhoods nearby.
 
 “This is not an all or nothing situation,” said Vice Chair Logan Key of Lockeland Springs. 
“We recognize people are entitled to have differing opinions on this issue.  Nashville has
neglected its mass transit system for years.  Most of our members believe we first need to invest
significantly in improving our current bus system, making it better, while we consider and
develop other alternatives. Overall, our members feel this particular plan is not sufficient for our
neighborhoods.”
The Coalition FOR Nashville Neighborhoods is composed of neighborhood activists from over
65 neighborhoods across Davidson County.   The Coalition was initially formed to address the
negative impact of short-term rentals on neighborhoods.  The Coalition now serves as a
collective voice on issues and concerns affecting the quality of life in our neighborhoods.
-end

[BnaBreaker]

Damnit Nashville.  Could ya buck the stereotype? Just this once? 

[MagicPotato]

32 minutes ago, jtmonk said:

I believe that picture is actually the Katy Freeway in Houston. 

Never mind it is.  It looked like I-35 for second, but still it's the same concept 

28 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

I am really thinking this is not going to pass.

From Coalition For Neighborhoods

 Neighborhoods Coalition Cannot Support Current Transit Plan
 
 
 After more than two hours of presentations by both proponents and opponents at a
Neighborhoods’ Transit Forum, members of the Coalition FOR Nashville Neighborhoods voted
not to support the transit plan as currently proposed.
 
 “Like many organizations, we are divided on this issue,” said Coalition Chair John
Summers of Sylvan Park.  “While our members recognize more needs to be done to address our
transit issues,” added Summers, “the majority believes this current plan is not the best answer.”
 
 Charlotte Cooper of Green Hills, who facilitated the question and answer session follow
ing the pro and con presentations, listed five major areas of concern:
 First: cost.   The proposed transit plan would double Metro’s debt.  If new revenues are not
sufficient to fund the plan, transit will compete with other essential services for funding.
 Second: traffic congestion.  According to both sides, only a small percentage of
Nashville drivers will move to mass transit, leaving our roads and streets still crowded with cars
-more
For Immediate Release Contact John Summers (615) 415-3016 [email protected]
and trucks.
 Third: funding basis in sales tax.   The proposed one-cent increase in the sales tax, a 10%
increase on the current rate, will give Nashville one of the highest sales tax rates in the nation,
placing an unfair burden on our poor and elderly.
 
 Fourth: Disruption.  Scheduled construction will disrupt our streets and the community
for a decade until the project is built out.
 Fifth: the transit-oriented districts (TODs).  TODs will become drivers for higher
density development along the corridors, accelerating gentrification, the loss of affordable
housing, and disrupting established neighborhoods nearby.
 
 “This is not an all or nothing situation,” said Vice Chair Logan Key of Lockeland Springs. 
“We recognize people are entitled to have differing opinions on this issue.  Nashville has
neglected its mass transit system for years.  Most of our members believe we first need to invest
significantly in improving our current bus system, making it better, while we consider and
develop other alternatives. Overall, our members feel this particular plan is not sufficient for our
neighborhoods.”
The Coalition FOR Nashville Neighborhoods is composed of neighborhood activists from over
65 neighborhoods across Davidson County.   The Coalition was initially formed to address the
negative impact of short-term rentals on neighborhoods.  The Coalition now serves as a
collective voice on issues and concerns affecting the quality of life in our neighborhoods.
-end

Is there any truth to this? Or is it more of a inflated statistic that they came up with? 

Edited April 11, 2018 by MagicPotato

[PaulChinetti]

Sigh. 

"Most of our members believe we first need to invest significantly in improving our current bus system, making it better, while we consider and develop other alternatives. Overall, our members feel this particular plan is not sufficient for our neighborhoods.”"

Do they not realize that this plan is going to significantly improve the current bus system AND THEN keep going??

 

I just adore (sarcasm) the quotes from the Sylvan Park and Green Hills people you see in these articles, I can't imagine it's the target demographic of public transit. 

I read an article last night with a quote from a lady in Green Hills along the lines of "I will never use this, so I'm not voting for it."

Well cool lady, that's not how cities work, I don't want any of my money going to more green hills infrastructure then either, like REALLY?! 
 

The longest sigh ever. 

[MagicPotato]

It's a little harder to manage bus routes for the suburban areas, or there's less motivation to use buses. That's why having a new "transit system" will commandant both trains, buses, and taxi's/uber drivers.  

[smeagolsfree]

26 minutes ago, MagicPotato said:

Never mind it is.  It looked like I-35 for second, but still it's the same concept 

Is there any truth to this? Or is it more of a inflated statistic that they came up with? 

It does not matter if there is any truth, the fact is that the neighborhood coalitions are against this now and these are areas that would generate high ridership. The fact is Mayor Barry screwed the pooch on this one, being polite. Now all of the adversaries to her, to her plan, and anyone associated with her are making themselves heard loud and clear. I do not care what you guys are saying, Briley is not being vocal about the plan enough. He is a weak leader from what I have seen so far. Like him or not, just looking at this from the point of view of an average person. Now that he has 13 other people running against him he will have no time to push the plan as he will be trying to campaign. He is not a very vocal leader and he may not win the mayors race.

[MLBrumby]

Have any Pro groups even attempted to tie passage of the plan to Amazon? Seems the whole possibility is dead if it's defeated.