The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[PaulChinetti]

For all the people screaming/complaining that the current plan isn't the way to go. I've yet to see a plan that had even a 10% chance of being feasible and/or making sense. 

So I'm not sure what plan the people who are against the current plan are waiting for?

 

I got it, a plan that runs light rail to every single neighborhood in the entire metro area, while causing zero disruption in current traffic. Also triple decker interstates around downtown, for use with autonomous cars and buses. Also it will also not raise any taxes on anyone, ever. Also it will be revenue generating day one. Also it can't cost more than $1 Billion when taking into account all costs for the next 50 years. Just do that and everyone would vote YES!

[markhollin]

AT&T is among the 14 companies that have sought Kim Moore's expertise when relocating their corporate headquarters. She offered a warning to a crowd of more than 400 business officials gathered April 11 in Williamson County, relaying her observations from another city grappling with its own traffic woes.

"One of the biggest things I would say is: Please don't become Austin. That's a city that said, 'If we don't build [transit], they won't come.' "

Voters in Austin defeated a mass-transit referendum in 2014, but as Moore noted, new residents and new companies kept coming anyway.

"I love Austin, but please, don't do that," said Moore, a managing director with the real estate and site-selection firm Newmark Knight Frank. Moore was a featured speaker at an annual market forecast event hosted by Williamson Inc., the county's combined economic development agency and chamber of commerce. (This story includes quotes from her talk and an interview afterward).

"You can't get anywhere in that city," Moore said. "When I'm touring with clients, they're saying, 'Where can we put our company in Austin so we're not stuck in traffic? Where will our workers live so they can easily get to work?'"

Full article behind NBJ paywall:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2018/04/11/site-selectors-advice-for-greater-nashville-please.html

[samsonh]

33 minutes ago, PaulChinetti said:

For all the people screaming/complaining that the current plan isn't the way to go. I've yet to see a plan that had even a 10% chance of being feasible and/or making sense. 

So I'm not sure what plan the people who are against the current plan are waiting for?

 

I got it, a plan that runs light rail to every single neighborhood in the entire metro area, while causing zero disruption in current traffic. Also triple decker interstates around downtown, for use with autonomous cars and buses. Also it will also not raise any taxes on anyone, ever. Also it will be revenue generating day one. Also it can't cost more than $1 Billion when taking into account all costs for the next 50 years. Just do that and everyone would vote YES!

I was told self driving cars are going to be here in 12 months! and what about double decker interstates and flying taxis. 

1 minute ago, markhollin said:

AT&T is among the 14 companies that have sought Kim Moore's expertise when relocating their corporate headquarters. She offered a warning to a crowd of more than 400 business officials gathered April 11 in Williamson County, relaying her observations from another city grappling with its own traffic woes.

"One of the biggest things I would say is: Please don't become Austin. That's a city that said, 'If we don't build [transit], they won't come.' "

Voters in Austin defeated a mass-transit referendum in 2014, but as Moore noted, new residents and new companies kept coming anyway.

"I love Austin, but please, don't do that," said Moore, a managing director with the real estate and site-selection firm Newmark Knight Frank. Moore was a featured speaker at an annual market forecast event hosted by Williamson Inc., the county's combined economic development agency and chamber of commerce. (This story includes quotes from her talk and an interview afterward).

"You can't get anywhere in that city," Moore said. "When I'm touring with clients, they're saying, 'Where can we put our company in Austin so we're not stuck in traffic? Where will our workers live so they can easily get to work?'"

Full article behind NBJ paywall:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2018/04/11/site-selectors-advice-for-greater-nashville-please.html

Indeed, Austin is awesome. But be prepared to take a long time to go anywhere. 

[PaulChinetti]

7 minutes ago, samsonh said:

I was told self driving cars are going to be here in 12 months! and what about double decker interstates and flying taxis. 

Double decker, pushaw. SO passè. I envision an arms race like razor blades, come to Nashville we have decuple decker interstates! It's an impenetrable fortress around downtown, that causes the sun to set in the inner core at 2:30 even in the middle of the summer!

[Guest]

ha, hilarious....

Amazon is not going to choose to come to, or not to come to Nashville based on this transit vote.

I do find it interesting that a company which will be exempt from any associated taxes would even weigh-in on the matter.... and yet no-one one on the board is beotching about 'out-of-towners' interfering in Nashville business. ha

 

31 minutes ago, markhollin said:

AT&T is among the 14 companies that have sought Kim Moore's expertise when relocating their corporate headquarters. She offered a warning to a crowd of more than 400 business officials gathered April 11 in Williamson County, relaying her observations from another city grappling with its own traffic woes.

"One of the biggest things I would say is: Please don't become Austin. That's a city that said, 'If we don't build [transit], they won't come.' "

Voters in Austin defeated a mass-transit referendum in 2014, but as Moore noted, new residents and new companies kept coming anyway.

"I love Austin, but please, don't do that," said Moore, a managing director with the real estate and site-selection firm Newmark Knight Frank. Moore was a featured speaker at an annual market forecast event hosted by Williamson Inc., the county's combined economic development agency and chamber of commerce. (This story includes quotes from her talk and an interview afterward).

"You can't get anywhere in that city," Moore said. "When I'm touring with clients, they're saying, 'Where can we put our company in Austin so we're not stuck in traffic? Where will our workers live so they can easily get to work?'"

Full article behind NBJ paywall:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2018/04/11/site-selectors-advice-for-greater-nashville-please.html

 

[markhollin]

^ ^ ^ Wellllll...I will argue that NOT getting our transit situation in some sort of order will definitely send a message to some large perspective corporate entities that we are not ready for them, nor would it appear that we have ay working  plan for the long term.   And that's a shame.

 

[MagicPotato]

If I were charge I'll go back to horses and carriages.  We don't need trains, cars, buses, or ubers/taxi's!

[Bos2Nash]

If the referendum does not pass, Amazon will definitely NOT choose Nashville. Plain. And. Simple. Also, as a new nashvillian, I would hate to see the 50K jobs plus the other natural growth the city will have without a transit system, so if it fails I will be hoping and praying Nashville is not chosen.

[MagicPotato]

5 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

If the referendum does not pass, Amazon will definitely NOT choose Nashville. Plain. And. Simple. Also, as a new nashvillian, I would hate to see the 50K jobs plus the other natural growth the city will have without a transit system, so if it fails I will be hoping and praying Nashville is not chosen.

It'll definitely lessen our chances.  

[nashvylle]

2 hours ago, Bos2Nash said:

If the referendum does not pass, Amazon will definitely NOT choose Nashville. Plain. And. Simple. Also, as a new nashvillian, I would hate to see the 50K jobs plus the other natural growth the city will have without a transit system, so if it fails I will be hoping and praying Nashville is not chosen.

I thought that too, but Austin is in the same situation as we are if it does not pass. 

[volsfanwill]

I finally got around to reading the Improve act.   I found this line most interesting. 

Also, any surcharge on the local option sales and use tax will apply only to the first $1,600 on the sale or use of any single article of personal property.

So, if i read this correctly, the sales tax would not apply to large purchases.  this should be shared everywhere!

[BnaBreaker]

This plan would be such a major boon for the city and is about as close to ideal as we could possibly get for a comprehensive, long term transit strategy...  and there's at least a reasonable chance it might fail to pass because the ignorant among us fell for lies being spread by out of town profiteers.  So close to glory and we might trip at the one yard line because enough people were too lazy to do more than three minutes of research on the plan to get the facts.  Let that sink in.

[Buildtall]

To many think that autonomous vehicles are the answer. Do they expect everyone to go out and purchase a new autonomous car? Are they going to give everyone a new autonomous vehicle because I know they aren’t going to be cheap.

[markhollin]

If Nashville wants to become the true “Athens of the South,” residents need to embrace Metro’s multibillion-dollar transit plan and its potential opportunities.

That’s the takeaway from urban design expert Robert Steuteville’s recent article, "Can Nashville truly be anAthens?",  which argues that Nashville’s mass-transit plan will accelerate the city’s growth curve.

Steuteville — senior communications adviser for the Congress for the New Urbanism, an urban design nonprofit — writes: “Let’s Move Nashville emphasizes transportation and mobility, but the biggest benefit may come from better urban form. The  27 neighborhood transit hubs, and many light-rail and [bus rapid-transit] stops, open opportunities for mixed-use development with high-quality placemaking. Time and time again, cities have profited from that approach.”

“Nashville’s proposal has the potential to be as successful [as Denver's]. With worse sprawl, Nashville has more to gain by improving its land patterns. Nashville already has adopted form-based overlay zoning that will enable high-quality development around transit stations to leverage economic benefits.

Without investment in transit, Nashville will have little choice but to expand highway capacity, which will create more sprawl, in turn contributing to traffic congestion, furthering a vicious cycle.

Let’s Move Nashville, on the other hand, sets up a virtuous cycle with opportunities to improve the economies of households and communities. The city could establish a public-private fund, for example, to build affordable housing near transit stations. The possibilities to attract businesses and make the city more livable will be terrific.”

More at NBJ here:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2018/04/12/urban-design-pro-to-nashville-embrace-transit-and.html

[PaulChinetti]

I'm still leaning it passes but BARELY. 

 

"Nashville already has adopted form-based overlay zoning that will enable high-quality development around transit stations to leverage economic benefits."

Is that true, based on the boards general disdain for codes/zoning/MDHA this seems pretty progressive for them considering the plan hasn't passed.

[MagicPotato]

Quote

Opponent calls light rail not 'forward-thinking'

carr said the plan, if approved by voters, would lock Nashville in for 50 years for a proposal that uses outdated rail. He disputed Bone's characterization that the program would be "forwarding-thinking." 

"Forward-thinking, forward-thinking, forward-thinking," he said, quoting past remarks from his counterpart. "That's why it's disingenuous for us as a city to look at investing the lion's share of this in backwards-thinking 19th century technology, which is rail," carr said. 

"That's the equivalent of me trying to go to the control room and try to jam an 8-track tape into an MP3 player," he said. "Is it worth us investing money that's going to be paid for by the many for the benefit of the infinitesimal few?" 

Bone agreed that light rail is expensive, but noted that the plan calls for more immediate upgrades to the city's bus system while the city gets going on building a light rail system. 

"What we've seen in cities where this has worked is that investments in bus and investments in light rail go hand-in-hand," Bone said. "These are complementary of each other, not a substitute for one another."

Hmm, and building double decker highways are more "forward thinking"? 

[BnaBreaker]

36 minutes ago, MagicPotato said:

Hmm, and building double decker highways are more "forward thinking"? 

Exactly... rail is so backwards!  It only works for regressive backwater hick towns like Tokyo and Shanghai and New York and Paris!

[Tennessine]

This alternative "plan" makes me think of a 1950s futurist's visualization of a dystopia. I have never heard anything more ridiculous. It's hard to imagine a group of educated people proposed this as a legitimate alternative using early-20th century civil engineering. This sounds like something the Soviets would have tried.

[PillowTalk4]

Is it a bit disingenuous for anyone to refer to 19th century technology as being outdated when you are still a user and benefactor of that technology?  Just because something was created in one century doesn't mean it's totally outdated for future decades and even centuries.  Hell, the new technology was supposed to be flying cars in the later half of the 20th century, yet we are no closer to that today as a mass market technology than we were when it was first discussed.  Aren't cars 19th century technology?  Aren't they still being made pretty much to get us from point A to point B in the simplest of terms.   All the bells and whistles on cars today, don't change the basic premise of how we use them.  For that matter, all the technology that has gone into shoe design/structure hasn't changed the basic premise of how we use them....

[MagicPotato]

I never understood how automated could reduce traffic. It's basically the same thing as to cars on the interstate nowadays, but the only thing is you're riding instead of driving.  

[PaulChinetti]

2 minutes ago, MagicPotato said:

I never understood how automated could reduce traffic. It's basically the same thing as to cars on the interstate nowadays, but the only thing is you're riding instead of driving.  

Agreed 100%, it's not people driving cars that make congestion, it's all the cars. If everyone is driving an automated car there will still be tons of cars. Also, what is the amount of time once the automated car becomes feasible and popular, that everyone will have one, 5 years? Decades?

 

[BnaBreaker]

20 minutes ago, PillowTalk4 said:

Is it a bit disingenuous for anyone to refer to 19th century technology as being outdated when you are still a user and benefactor of that technology?  Just because something was created in one century doesn't mean it's totally outdated for future decades and even centuries.  Hell, the new technology was supposed to be flying cars in the later half of the 20th century, yet we are no closer to that today as a mass market technology than we were when it was first discussed.  Aren't cars 19th century technology?  Aren't they still being made pretty much to get us from point A to point B in the simplest of terms.   All the bells and whistles on cars today, don't change the basic premise of how we use them.  For that matter, all the technology that has gone into shoe design/structure hasn't changed the basic premise of how we use them....

Exactly!  It seems odd to me that it hasn't occurred to the people making the above argument against rail that the same flawed logic could be used against cars too since they are essentially just a horse and buggy without the horse.  

[PruneTracy]

6 minutes ago, MagicPotato said:

I never understood how automated could reduce traffic. It's basically the same thing as to cars on the interstate nowadays, but the only thing is you're riding instead of driving.  

2 minutes ago, PaulChinetti said:

Agreed 100%, it's not people driving cars that make congestion, it's all the cars. If everyone is driving an automated car there will still be tons of cars. Also, what is the amount of time once the automated car becomes feasible and popular, that everyone will have one, 5 years? Decades?

Most of the physical space that is taken up on a roadway (in particular high-speed ones like freeways) is the space needed for drivers to safely stop or maneuver their vehicles, not the vehicles themselves.

Everyone remember the three-second rule? Not for picking up dropped French fries off your floorboard, but the space you need to leave between your vehicle and the one in front of you.

At 70 miles per hour, those three seconds translates to 300 feet. That's enough physical room for 15 cars in the space that your one car takes up.

Automated vehicles being piloted by our robot overlords can reduce that distance and allow for more vehicles on the roadway at a given speed. Connected vehicles that still have meatbag drivers can do it as well, though to a lesser extent.

Of course, if your vehicle is automated you may elect to send it back to your house once you get to work, save on the parking fees. That means you just doubled your trips. Maybe that return trip happens during off-peak periods, maybe not.

As far as rollout time, not everyone will trade in their old cars for new ones right away. But then if your car just becomes a space you passively occupy from point A to point B, does it even need to be "your" car? Uber could buy a million of these right away and put them on the roads for your use, whether you own a car or not. Their investors have already thrown money at dumber initiatives.

[PaulChinetti]

Great point about owning a car, I wish I could dump mine now. 

Every year someone says we are 5 years from automated vehicles and every year it's another 5. I just hope people realize that and don't think AV are this magic bullet to cure all our traffic woes. But it doesn't seem to be that way as all the opposition "plans" think they are about to happen at any moment now. 

[markhollin]

Got this in an e-mail today...good graphic showing all the elements of how the plan will work for John Q. Public in different parts of the city: