Jump to content

The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread


TopTenn

Recommended Posts


3 hours ago, MLBrumby said:

Isn't a gondola just point-to-point with no interval stops?  If so, then would you have to build a gondola for each p-t-p route?  Someone educate me! 

Gondolas can have multiple stops on a single line. Recently, I rode one with 3 stops (Singapore)

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, LA_TN said:

Gondolas can have multiple stops on a single line. Recently, I rode one with 3 stops (Singapore)

Thanks, I was wondering about point-to-point vs. multiple stops as well. 

But how high will the towers have to be? It seems gaudy to have these poking up all over the Nashville skyline.Personally, most of them seem tacky, except for the Emirates towers in London but thats only because it is literally the most expensive cable car system ever built. 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, samsonh said:

Diane black came out in support of double decker interstates.  Talk about a potential boondoggle!

While we're at it, we might as well make them Quadruple decker... and hell, let's go ahead and pave over the city and make it one giant highway... because, 'freedom,' or something.  

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm excited that gondolas are being at least suggested, I've always thought this was a very practical idea and they would look cool as well and be pleasant to ride, with great views, unlike a bus or a subway.  I'd start with  a line from Opryland with a couple of stops in East Nashville before downtown.

I really don't get the resistance to this; they are used very practically in a number of cities.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Neigeville2 said:

I'm excited that gondolas are being at least suggested, I've always thought this was a very practical idea and they would look cool as well and be pleasant to ride, with great views, unlike a bus or a subway.  I'd start with  a line from Opryland with a couple of stops in East Nashville before downtown.

I really don't get the resistance to this; they are used very practically in a number of cities.

The only thing I have a problem with is the notion that it should be the primary feature in a mass transit plan.  Like I said earlier, I agree that it could be a useful, even interesting feature if given a limited role in an appropriate area.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seeing gondolas everywhere all over our sky line might become visually annoying. It might be interesting to just have them in the downtown loop as a means to get around. That could be fun for tourists as well.

I think the idea of the plan we just voted on being scaled down to BRT would be perfect. Come back to the voters with a plan that's 1/3 the cost and will eventually link to surrounding counties. Allow "Uber/Lyft carpooling" to use the lanes and this really seems like a WIN WIN.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You might move, say, 10 people per car with a gondola cab coming  every 30 seconds. So you move 120 people every hour. Then there is loading and unloading time. 

And that's assuming there is no wind, thunderstorms, extreme cold, mechanical issues (one incident would kill ridership forever) or labor issues.

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't believe gondola is a good concept for greater Nashville. Maybe downtown to Gulch, Midtown and Germantown... perhaps across the river to Five Points in E. Nashville.  As smeagolsfree and others have stated, capacity is not suited to Mass Transit. Many over 60 crowd wouldn't be jacked pondering having to make a semi-athletic move for a timed entry into the car, under pressure. I also wonder what it would be like jammed into a cable car, suspended above ground, moving at 10 - 12 mph while sharing the car with a gang banger/hoodlum/thief/panhandler/aggressive drunk/psychopath/sex offender...you get the idea. While you have some modicum of security on a bus with a driver - who can pull over anytime and call authorities - or on a train with a driver and possibly a transit cop....there would be no such thing (except an emergency button) to prevent mayhem. Frankly, not concerned for my own safety, but for more vulnerable members of the population, I'd have some grave concerns. Maybe every rider gets a standard issue firearm? - so it's a level playing field. I can see the Tennessee legislature getting behind that one. Sorry for the snark.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, PHofKS said:

You might move, say, 10 people per car with a gondola cab coming  every 30 seconds. So you move 120 people every hour. Then there is loading and unloading time. 

And that's assuming there is no wind, thunderstorms, extreme cold, mechanical issues (one incident would kill ridership forever) or labor issues.

 

Check your math. 1200 people per hour per station each way  (20 people/min x 60 minutes = 1200).  Is there a single bus stop or proposed LRT station in the entire city projected to have that ridership?  Let's not pretend we're NYC.  If ridership is a concern the cars can be put much closer together. You can space them so that they arrive every 15-20 seconds if we wanted them to which raises capacity to  1800-2400 people/minute.  There are also 12 passenger versions if you wanted to squeeze another 20% of capacity.

Assuming there no wind, thunderstorm, extreme cold, mechanical issues.  You can come up with excuses all the time. Don't people say the exact same thing about LRT?  One derailment and no one will ride. If electricity goes out you'll be stuck mid-track. Gondolas have been used for decades and have an incredible safety record, and they even come with heaters (imagine that!).   I would think that times of severe weather they will pull riders off in case of a tornado. Lightning should pose no threat since everything will be grounded.  In terms of wind, keep in mind these have traditionally been used in mountain situations where winds will maintain speeds above 30-40 miles per hours routinely. 

I've loaded and unloaded on these numerous times in the past. It take roughly around 30-60 seconds per station (depending on whether it is at the end or a mid-line station. Super easy and can be handicapped accessible. Here is a video of Telluride's at one of the end stations. 

   

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Flatrock said:

Don't believe gondola is a good concept for greater Nashville. Maybe downtown to Gulch, Midtown and Germantown... perhaps across the river to Five Points in E. Nashville.  As smeagolsfree and others have stated, capacity is not suited to Mass Transit. Many over 60 crowd wouldn't be jacked pondering having to make a semi-athletic move for a timed entry into the car, under pressure. I also wonder what it would be like jammed into a cable car, suspended above ground, moving at 10 - 12 mph while sharing the car with a gang banger/hoodlum/thief/panhandler/aggressive drunk/psychopath/sex offender...you get the idea. While you have some modicum of security on a bus with a driver - who can pull over anytime and call authorities - or on a train with a driver and possibly a transit cop....there would be no such thing (except an emergency button) to prevent mayhem. Frankly, not concerned for my own safety, but for more vulnerable members of the population, I'd have some grave concerns. Maybe every rider gets a standard issue firearm? - so it's a level playing field. I can see the Tennessee legislature getting behind that one. Sorry for the snark.

Capacity? Again, name a single bus line in Nashville that approaches a capacity of 1200 people per hour each way.  Find me a single proposed LRT route in the transit plan that projected 1200 people per hour each way.  Let's be intellectually honest and think about this before spouting off why it won't work. 

What is this supposed sex offender or murderer going to do when they roll up to the next station with an assaulted person or dead body lying on the floor?  Just tell the transit workers to ignore it? 

I'm getting the sense that a lot of people simply haven't thought about this more than a cursory, "there's no way this will work."  Actually dig into the numbers. Dig into the transit times.  Continuous loading and nonstop service does wonders for transit times from fairly far flung locales (relatively speaking).  With BRT if you just miss the bus you're looking at another 10 minutes (at the earliest) before the next bus arrives. Even if you get lucky and arrive at the station at the perfect time you'll still probably only make the trip from Green Hills to downtown five minutes quicker. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Hey_Hey said:

Capacity? Again, name a single bus line in Nashville that approaches a capacity of 1200 people per hour each way.  Find me a single proposed LRT route in the transit plan that projected 1200 people per hour each way.  Let's be intellectually honest and think about this before spouting off why it won't work. 

What is this supposed sex offender or murderer going to do when they roll up to the next station with an assaulted person or dead body lying on the floor?  Just tell the transit workers to ignore it?  

Spouting off? I gave my thoughtful opinion just like you. Though I didn't try and attack you personally. This has been a significant issue at the heart of Nashville's transit debate: Sharing a perspective and being attacked. This does your cause, whatever it is, a major disservice. Respect begets respect.

The capacity issue I'm referring to would be cable vs. BRT buses operating at a vastly different scale than currently. Yes, it would require legislative action/changes at the state level. Bigger buses, dedicated ROW, etc.

Crime: downtown area and density of ridership would more or less police itself and I'd have little concern. My thoughts on safety were regarding, for example, a lone female passenger at midnight headed home along one of the pikes with some distance between stops. I wasn't envisioning a major station with transit personnel at every stop...

BRT Capacity:

From brief Google search:

"...the minimum headway and maximum current vehicle capacities, the theoretical maximum throughput measured in passengers per hour per direction (PPHPD) for a single traffic lane is some 90,000 passengers per hour (250 passengers per vehicle, one vehicles every 10 seconds). In real world conditions TransMilenio holds the record, with 35,000 – 40,000 PPHPD with most other busy systems operating in the 15,000 to 25,000 range.[citation needed]

Location    System    Peak passengers per hour per direction    Passengers per day    Length (km)
Bogotá    TransMilenio    35,000 – 40,000[31]    2,154,961[32]    106[33]
Guangzhou    Guangzhou Bus Rapid Transit    26,900[34]    1,000,000    22
Curitiba, Brazil    Rede Integrada de Transporte    13,900 – 24,100    508,000[35] (2,260,000 inc. feeder lines[36])    81
Mexico City, Mexico    Mexico City Metrobus    18,500[citation needed]    1,800,000[37]    140[38][39]
Belo Horizonte, São Paulo        15,800 – 20,300[40]        24
Istanbul    Metrobus (Istanbul)    7,300 – 19,500[40]    800,000    52
New Jersey    Lincoln Tunnel XBL    15,500[41]    62,000 (4 hour morning peak only)    
Brisbane    South East Busway    15,000[42]

 

Edited by Flatrock
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I appreciate the well argued, quantitatively laid out arguments for a gondola-based transit plan y’all are making. I initially thought the idea was ridiculous but I’m now definitely in the “let’s keep it as an option” camp. Are the cost of building the infrastructure more or less than BRT? How are the maintenance costs, comparable to a bus system or LRT?

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Flatrock said:

Spouting off? I gave my thoughtful opinion just like you. Though I didn't try and attack you personally. This has been a significant issue at the heart of Nashville's transit debate: Sharing a perspective and being attacked. This does your cause, whatever it is, a major disservice. Respect begets respect.

The capacity issue I'm referring to would be cable vs. BRT buses operating at a vastly different scale than currently. Yes, it would require legislative action/changes at the state level. Bigger buses, dedicated ROW, etc.

Crime: downtown area and density of ridership would more or less police itself and I'd have little concern. My thoughts on safety were regarding, for example, a lone female passenger at midnight headed home along one of the pikes with some distance between stops. I wasn't envisioning a major station with transit personnel at every stop...

Capacity:

From brief Google search:

"...the minimum headway and maximum current vehicle capacities, the theoretical maximum throughput measured in passengers per hour per direction (PPHPD) for a single traffic lane is some 90,000 passengers per hour (250 passengers per vehicle, one vehicles every 10 seconds). In real world conditions TransMilenio holds the record, with 35,000 – 40,000 PPHPD with most other busy systems operating in the 15,000 to 25,000 range.[citation needed]

Location    System    Peak passengers per hour per direction    Passengers per day    Length (km)
Bogotá    TransMilenio    35,000 – 40,000[31]    2,154,961[32]    106[33]
Guangzhou    Guangzhou Bus Rapid Transit    26,900[34]    1,000,000    22
Curitiba, Brazil    Rede Integrada de Transporte    13,900 – 24,100    508,000[35] (2,260,000 inc. feeder lines[36])    81
Mexico City, Mexico    Mexico City Metrobus    18,500[citation needed]    1,800,000[37]    140[38][39]
Belo Horizonte, São Paulo        15,800 – 20,300[40]        24
Istanbul    Metrobus (Istanbul)    7,300 – 19,500[40]    800,000    52
New Jersey    Lincoln Tunnel XBL    15,500[41]    62,000 (4 hour morning peak only)    
Brisbane    South East Busway    15,000[42]

 

I wasn't intending to attack you personally.  I apologize. Reviewing the comments above there have been many people mention capacity, crime, safety, etc., and dismiss this idea immediately.  It is clear they haven't actually looked at the numbers. In their mind this is the cable car from an amusement park, when they are actually two very different things.  Many people say things like, "this is for people who don't know anything about transit."  I would argue that maybe the traditional thinking about transit needs to shift.  Even places that have LRT aren't seeing huge growth in ridership (Charlotte for example) despite the tremendous cost.  

I would agree with you that a fully utilized BRT system will have more capacity.  However, are we realistically going to see even a small fraction of those numbers anywhere in Nashville during our lifetimes? Why would we use capacity as an argument when we all know that we'll never need that kind of capacity? We're currently transporting 30,000 people per day on MTA, and I would be ecstatic if we were able to eventually get that up to 100,000 people per day.  Five lines of gondolas would have an hourly  capacity of 6000 people per hour each way.  12,000 people per hour for 18 hours a day would give us a capacity of 216,000 people without even considering the accompanying busses. We aren't going to approach the capacity of a modern gondola system anytime soon, let along the theoretical limits of BRT.  Building to enable those capacities is going to lead to a lot of extra money with no return on that money.  We've tried BRT once and it failed (and I proudly supported that initiative by organizing our neighborhood to speak up for it). I suspect the state will step in and make the next proposal for Nolensville, Charlotte, or Gallatin Rd BRT fail as well. Why would we keep doing the same thing?

There will have to be transit personnel at every station. I think the ADA would require that these be handicap accessible which would require some assistance for loading and unloading. A single young female walking along a transit corridor after exiting mass transit is going to be the same for BRT, LRT, or gondola. I don't see that as a reason to not do any of those things.

Two good videos :

 

 

 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Hey_Hey said:

I wasn't intending to attack you personally.  I apologize. Reviewing the comments above there have been many people mention capacity, crime, safety, etc., and dismiss this idea immediately.  It is clear they haven't actually looked at the numbers. In their mind this is the cable car from an amusement park, when they are actually two very different things.  Many people say things like, "this is for people who don't know anything about transit."  I would argue that maybe the traditional thinking about transit needs to shift. 

Thanks for that, no worries. Man, I love out of the box thinking. And critics are a dime a dozen. I'm prepared to pivot my opinions in favor of ANYTHING that makes viable sense. I agree that anecdotal experience would dictate our own ridership on BRT would be dramatically less than those in super-dense international metros, at least until generational/cultural/behavioral seismic shifts occur. I promise I wasn't picturing this as an amusement ride.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, markhollin said:

gondola system

How do these hold up during thunderstorms? Will the system have to close on windy days or when there is lightning? Are they air conditioned?

4 hours ago, nashwatcher said:

the plan we just voted on being scaled down to BRT

BRT = nope. State preemption.

Edited by Rockatansky
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would think these would be loaded via elevators/stairs? Like they don't dip to the ground to pick people up would they?

If the towers aren't that big, they could strategically be placed in turning lanes with barriers and landscaping to minimize their footprints. West End doesn't need all of that turn lane the entire length. 

Nashville would have to pair this program with a simultaneous hard push to increase our sidewalk coverage. Getting dumped off somewhere and then picking your way through parking lots and grass medians would be the worst. 

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Neigeville2 said:

I'm excited that gondolas are being at least suggested, I've always thought this was a very practical idea and they would look cool as well and be pleasant to ride, with great views, unlike a bus or a subway.  I'd start with  a line from Opryland with a couple of stops in East Nashville before downtown.

I really don't get the resistance to this; they are used very practically in a number of cities.

8 hours ago, BnaBreaker said:

The only thing I have a problem with is the notion that it should be the primary feature in a mass transit plan.  Like I said earlier, I agree that it could be a useful, even interesting feature if given a limited role in an appropriate area.  

1 hour ago, Hey_Hey said:

Capacity? Again, name a single bus line in Nashville that approaches a capacity of 1200 people per hour each way.  Find me a single proposed LRT route in the transit plan that projected 1200 people per hour each way.  Let's be intellectually honest and think about this before spouting off why it won't work. 

What is this supposed sex offender or murderer going to do when they roll up to the next station with an assaulted person or dead body lying on the floor?  Just tell the transit workers to ignore it? 

I'm getting the sense that a lot of people simply haven't thought about this more than a cursory, "there's no way this will work."  Actually dig into the numbers. Dig into the transit times.  Continuous loading and nonstop service does wonders for transit times from fairly far flung locales (relatively speaking).  With BRT if you just miss the bus you're looking at another 10 minutes (at the earliest) before the next bus arrives. Even if you get lucky and arrive at the station at the perfect time you'll still probably only make the trip from Green Hills to downtown five minutes quicker. 

I tend to agree that these could not substitute as mass transit system. Boston has proposed monorail/tram/gondola systems before to connect the north and south train stations, and they are never approved due to a number of problems. Aesthetics probably play a big role (the city paid 14bn to bury the highway now we are gonna hang cables with floating cars??). Another is the efficiency, because most likely the cars will HAVE to stop to allow elderly, children, people with disabilities load on to them. The final one is just the overall usage. How much would everyday city people use this system? The Bolivia system seems like a great success, but I believe the mention of larger hills played a role in the system as well (trains cant go beyond a 5% grade??).

The question of stations also comes up for me. Would we retrofit stations into buildings to allow boarding? These stations could balloon in cost pretty quickly with land for multiple sets of stairs, most likely redundant elevators and then the waiting platform would have to have a certain capacity for people waiting to board. Has Paul mentions, we would also have to have a large push to for expanded sidewalks as the stations will eat valuable real estate at grade. Also, what will these stations do to future building developments??

The general feel is it would be more of a tourist attraction for people to see the city.

I don't want these items to be taken as random attacks on the idea, but more so comments to consider as the idea is discussed. From a personal standpoint and where I see technology has been going, building elevated transit is a thing of the past. Chicago's and New York's elevated transit systems are unique in that they were built a very long time ago when technology didn't exist for efficient underground transportation. I believe elevating transit would be a step in the wrong direction for transit (unless it is a supplement to the bigger solution).

Edited by Bos2Nash
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, PHofKS said:

You might move, say, 10 people per car with a gondola cab coming  every 30 seconds. So you move 120 people every hour. Then there is loading and unloading time. 

And that's assuming there is no wind, thunderstorms, extreme cold, mechanical issues (one incident would kill ridership forever) or labor issues.

 

Not if you get the builder of this ski lift to build the gondolas. Look how fast they can unload!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.