The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[Bos2Nash]

On 5/16/2018 at 9:55 AM, PruneTracy said:

The problem is that those bollards are well within the clear zone, both for vehicles and bikes. They can do a lot of damage, even at low speeds.

Generally speaking, when it comes to pedestrian and especially bicycle infrastructure, many agencies are just throwing treatments at the wall to see what sticks. Look at how many different types there are in Metro alone, and how often the preferred treatment changes between projects. Experimentation is good to a degree, but many of these treatments aren't going through the same rigorous process that leads to the establishment of other roadway features, such as pavement markings or geometric design. The balance is shifting from whether a treatment is of sound engineering and substantially improves safety to just whether it is cheap and looks good. 

On 5/16/2018 at 8:47 AM, smeagolsfree said:

Speaking of the bike lanes. I must say that Indianapolis knows what the are doing . Yes there are a few places that have the cheap plastic bollards, but most are protected by a curb and concrete bollards planted firmly into the ground. Now the Greenway system here is great, but where Nashville is lacking is all of the places they have put these plastic POS bollards.  Most of the ones installed on 51st have been run over and look like crap. The Gulch is one of the few places the lanes are up on a curb. Most pedestrians have no clue these are bike lanes. In Indy, there are signs that this area is for bikers, and this area is for pedestrians. I did however see one close call there as a biker was traveling down the path and a car came out of a garage and almost hit him.

 

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True separated lanes will do wonders for the city, for all. Tourists, Commuters et all would all benefit from this. I hate using the notion of how far our European counterparts are ahead of us (and I have done it a few times), but it does amazing things in terms of overall street comfort.

I always get a bit frustrated by the division street overpass bollards. They appear to have some good structure to them, then I drive past the several that have obviously been hit and they are essentially a surface option. Hopefully they are cheap enough to constantly replace instead of buying true bollards.

 

2 hours ago, nashville_bound said:

OH MY GOSH, we do not have sidewalks in most of the county, we have a huge Metro budget deficit , but yes why not spend money we do not have to build protected bike lanes. 
How many Nashvillians commute to work and back on a bike? How often? How many bike riders are injured each year in Metro? How many of those injuries were the fault of drivers/pedestrians? How many the fault of bikers? How much money is spent (per rider) on bike infrastructure in Nashville?  

My point is how many cars are actually taken off the road in Nashville with bike riders? Is this a cost effective way to relieve traffic? Not in theory (please to not show the inane graphic of  a car takes up this much space, a bus takes up this much space, a bike takes up this much space......) I mean actual numbers.

As a downtown resident who has lived and is continuing to live through the failed bike lanes on the Church Street viaduct for 5-6 years let me say, whatever it was projected to accomplish ...it has failed. These lanes are most used for the sightseeing busses, package delivery services, those moving into and out of the Gossett, and those picking up delivery from Sicilian Pizza. Ans the lanes on the Demonbreun viaduct are used bu the pedal taverns, and tour busses.

Ha, I took this just 5 min ago...

 

 

This notion that we have to build bike infrastructure to meet demand rather build to induce demand boogles my mind! You are right, there is very little usage of bike in our status, but that is because novice riders do not feel comfortable riding on our streets, so how is the demand supposed to grow if that is the case?? Furthermore, the thought process of bike infrastructure needs to change altogether. Similar to the idea that we need to build/expand roadways for cars, we need to build the bike lanes for bike traffic. Bike lanes should be (and will be, one day) included in any road project as it should be included into the conversation of general accessway construction. These are fluffy feel good projects, they are necessary parts to the puzzle.

In regards to your comments about other modes using these lanes, the city needs to step up their game in terms of ticketing vehicles that do this (also wonder if this would happen with separated lanes?? that would be no) and have them removed if necessary. Blaming bike infrastructure for having cars and trucks park in them is like blaming the inanimate objects in other political arguments for the issue. The people that violate the bike lane are responsible and need to be ticketed or towed for the interruption. 

**bigeasy and I posted at the exact same time, so apologize for the pile on arguement**

Edited May 17, 2018 by Bos2Nash

[Pdt2f]

Just my two cents: I would totally commute to and from work using a combination of bicycle and bus if I felt even remotely safe riding a bike in Madison (land of no sidewalks and junkie/drunk drivers) or where I work downtown. I don’t feel safe biking in either place, so I drive. My demand would be there with better bicycle infrastructure, it’s not there with no infrastructure. 

[smeagolsfree]

I dont ride my bike in Nashville unless its on the greenways because I dont feel safe in the shoddy bikes lanes provided.

[AronG]

3 hours ago, nashville_bound said:

OH MY GOSH, we do not have sidewalks in most of the county, we have a huge Metro budget deficit , but yes why not spend money we do not have to build protected bike lanes. 
How many Nashvillians commute to work and back on a bike? How often? How many bike riders are injured each year in Metro? How many of those injuries were the fault of drivers/pedestrians? How many the fault of bikers? How much money is spent (per rider) on bike infrastructure in Nashville?  

My point is how many cars are actually taken off the road in Nashville with bike riders? Is this a cost effective way to relieve traffic? Not in theory (please to not show the inane graphic of  a car takes up this much space, a bus takes up this much space, a bike takes up this much space......) I mean actual numbers.

As a downtown resident who has lived and is continuing to live through the failed bike lanes on the Church Street viaduct for 5-6 years let me say, whatever it was projected to accomplish ...it has failed. These lanes are most used for the sightseeing busses, package delivery services, those moving into and out of the Gossett, and those picking up delivery from Sicilian Pizza. Ans the lanes on the Demonbreun viaduct are used bu the pedal taverns, and tour busses.

Ha, I took this just 5 min ago...

So many thoughts...

• Our annual budget is north of $2 billion. The 2-mile protected bike lane on Davidson St cost $839,000. You of all people should love this scale of these projects. No bond issue necessary!
• I love the talking point where our sidewalks suck so we can't fix anything else. It's is a great way to justify not doing anything about anything! "Murderers get away with it all the time. Why do we even outlaw kidnapping?"
• We spend an incredible amount of money on our roads, and we've spread car subsidies throughout our economy. Bike lanes are an absolute pittance in comparison.
• Can you really follow the Bird scooter saga and not conclude that the upcoming generation of electric gizmos is going to push a whole new level of demand for person-size transportation? Give them space!
• I refuse to believe that a smart guy like you could document so exquisitely what a joke the Church St bike lane is, then genuinely invoke it to conclude that nobody uses bike lanes.
• What is even your point about injuries? Are you saying pedestrians/bikers are at fault for their own injuries and deaths therefore we shouldn't improve the facilities for them?
• Every single time we go through a community process on city planning (most recently NashvilleNext), people unambiguously want to increase mode share for "active transportation" (bike/ped). The way to do that is to provide better facilities.
• You can't decide whether to build a bridge by counting the people swimming across the river. Build a real network of protected lanes that allows people to escape car traffic and get around the core and use will absolutely increase.
• Why do we have to pretend like this hasn't been played out in full by every single city that came before us? Do you think they're all wasting time & money pursuing better biking infrastructure? There's nothing magical about New Orleans, Portland, or Minneapolis. They just took this seriously instead of paying lip service.

Anyway, I got more but I assume you're trolling with this one so I'll wrap it up there. I salute your superior ability to dislodge an avalanche of replies.

[BnaBreaker]

18 minutes ago, AronG said:

So many thoughts...

• Our annual budget is north of $2 billion. The 2-mile protected bike lane on Davidson St cost $839,000. You of all people should love this scale of these projects. No bond issue necessary!
• I love the talking point where our sidewalks suck so we can't fix anything else. It's is a great way to justify not doing anything about anything! "Murderers get away with it all the time. Why do we even outlaw kidnapping?"
• We spend an incredible amount of money on our roads, and we've spread car subsidies throughout our economy. Bike lanes are an absolute pittance in comparison.
• Can you really follow the Bird scooter saga and not conclude that the upcoming generation of electric gizmos is going to push a whole new level of demand for person-size transportation? Give them space!
• I refuse to believe that a smart guy like you could document so exquisitely what a joke the Church St bike lane is, then genuinely invoke it to conclude that nobody uses bike lanes.
• What is even your point about injuries? Are you saying pedestrians/bikers are at fault for their own injuries and deaths therefore we shouldn't improve the facilities for them?
• Every single time we go through a community process on city planning (most recently NashvilleNext), people unambiguously want to increase mode share for "active transportation" (bike/ped). The way to do that is to provide better facilities.
• You can't decide whether to build a bridge by counting the people swimming across the river. Build a real network of protected lanes that allows people to escape car traffic and get around the core and use will absolutely increase.
• Why do we have to pretend like this hasn't been played out in full by every single city that came before us? Do you think they're all wasting time & money pursuing better biking infrastructure? There's nothing magical about New Orleans, Portland, or Minneapolis. They just took this seriously instead of paying lip service.

Anyway, I got more but I assume you're trolling with this one so I'll wrap it up there. I salute your superior ability to dislodge an avalanche of replies.

This. This. THIS.  I cannot click "like" on this post enough.  

[Guest]

I guess at least some Metro Councilmen and the 2nd leading candidate for mayor (Gilmore) disagree with your characterization....

"

"We've got significant problems with this budget, and it's only going to get worse next year," Mendes said, arguing that spending cuts wouldn't change the outlook.

"There's definitely no way to cut our way to prosperity on this," Mendes said. "There's no way to cut enough money to fund the pay plan, actually have a rainy-day fund at 5 percent (of the budget), and fund the schools budget."

"The proposal, led by At-large Councilman Bob Mendes, with early backing from At-large Councilwoman Sharon Hurt and Councilman Bill Pridemore, would increase the city's combined property tax rate in the Urban Services District from $3.155 to $3.655 per $100 of assessed value, a 15.9-percent hike."

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2018/05/18/nashville-council-members-propose-50-cent-property-tax-hike/620786002/

21 hours ago, samsonh said:

Budget deficit is currently around 1% of Metro's budget. Not huge by any means. Revenue growth will continue as many of these large projects discussed on this very board come online and begin paying taxes. Also many TIF loans will soon be paid off and that money will begin flowing into the general fund. Metro could also shut down Metro General(which I think they should), and immediately the budget deficit becomes a surplus. 

 

[samsonh]

5 minutes ago, nashville_bound said:

I guess at least some Metro Councilmen and the 2nd leading candidate for mayor (Gilmore) disagree with your characterization....

"

"We've got significant problems with this budget, and it's only going to get worse next year," Mendes said, arguing that spending cuts wouldn't change the outlook.

"There's definitely no way to cut our way to prosperity on this," Mendes said. "There's no way to cut enough money to fund the pay plan, actually have a rainy-day fund at 5 percent (of the budget), and fund the schools budget."

"The proposal, led by At-large Councilman Bob Mendes, with early backing from At-large Councilwoman Sharon Hurt and Councilman Bill Pridemore, would increase the city's combined property tax rate in the Urban Services District from $3.155 to $3.655 per $100 of assessed value, a 15.9-percent hike."

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2018/05/18/nashville-council-members-propose-50-cent-property-tax-hike/620786002/

And I disagree with that assessment. They refuse to look at ending the large subsidy to Metro General. I understand their reasons but it simply makes sense to end it. That subsidy alone is going to be at least $46 million this fiscal year. 

 

NB, you believe there are lots of problems. Do you have a solution you'd like to bring to the table?

Edited May 18, 2018 by samsonh

[MLBrumby]

Did I recently read there is $205M in the budget for "Rainy Day" fund?  Does a budget shortfall not constitute a rainy day? 

Did I recently read there is $205M in the budget for "Rainy Day" fund?  Does a budget shortfall not constitute a rainy day?  Also, has anyone looked into the additional staff members Mayor Barry added in her first 4 months? I believe she added 4-5 new staff positions. 

[samsonh]

3 minutes ago, MLBrumby said:

Did I recently read there is $205M in the budget for "Rainy Day" fund?  Does a budget shortfall not constitute a rainy day? 

Did I recently read there is $205M in the budget for "Rainy Day" fund?  Does a budget shortfall not constitute a rainy day?  Also, has anyone looked into the additional staff members Mayor Barry added in her first 4 months? I believe she added 4-5 new staff positions. 

No offense but 4-5 new positions barely makes a dent in our budget. Although I agree with your sentiment that all positions should be looked at in terms of need citywide. 

[e-dub]

the INSTANT i open the door to walk to the bus stop is the INSTANT it starts raining. i figured this would be the right place to beotch about it, lol.

[Nathan_in_DC]

On 5/17/2018 at 3:38 PM, Bos2Nash said:

In regards to your comments about other modes using these lanes, the city needs to step up their game in terms of ticketing vehicles that do this (also wonder if this would happen with separated lanes?? that would be no) and have them removed if necessary. Blaming bike infrastructure for having cars and trucks park in them is like blaming the inanimate objects in other political arguments for the issue. The people that violate the bike lane are responsible and need to be ticketed or towed for the interruption.

This is a huge thing. Cities around the country are generally more concerned with ticketing speeding and issuing meter violations than ticketing or towing illegally parked delivery vehicles, cars blocking sidewalks, and unsafe driving. It often requires specific complaints against specific vehicles for anything to be done. I see it everywhere from Nashville to my apartment in Alexandria, VA. If I'm out for a stroll or casual bike ride and have the time, I've taken to calling the police non emergency line to request an officer come and ticket drivers, especially delivery trucks that have access to loading docks but don't use them. After two or three complaints for a specific business and a few tickets issued to drivers, they start getting the idea.

[fishsticks176]

Reminds me of this:

 

 

[ZestyEd]

How self-driving cars will reshape cities

https://www.wired.com/story/self-driving-cars-cities/

[nashvylle]

I’m so excited for Nashville to not invest in any transit and get in my driverless car and sit in more traffic than I do now. 

Glass half full- more time for urbanplanet! 

[AronG]

I love these cute 'futurist' articles that totally ignore the irrational political considerations that dominate (and cripple) urban planning in American cities. Parking mandates are bad. Height restrictions are bad. Congestion taxes on single-occupant vehicles would fix traffic. We don't need so many roads, and they should be designed for people, not machines. They're all as true today as they will be after autonomous cars. The real question is which of our pathologies will have a chance of getting knocked loose during the transition. My predictions:

• We won't take the opportunity to decrease the number of roads to make our cities more pleasant & livable. Maybe the pressure to build/widen new ones will decrease. Maybe we'll be more successful at slowing down traffic.
• NIMBYs will still NIMBY. If nothing else "neighborhood character" will always be a great, meaningless, all purpose reason to resist any interesting changes in your local vicinity.
• People will still resist density. They'll continue to believe that upzoning to townhouses would destroy everything they hold dear. They'll show up to meetings and resist 3 story developments in neighborhood centers like someone tried to build a new Dubai.
• We are going to sprawl so hard. Driverless cars are going to enable the sprawliest sprawl we've ever sprawled. People are going to pursue their obsession with wholesome country-side living to an entire new ring of counties.
• Parking is going to be the bright spot. Surface lots downtown will be replaced with buildings. New developments won't require 8 stories of parking garage. Suburban retail centers will no longer need acres of parking (they'll continue to waste a ridiculous amount of space to avoid real water management tho).

Edited May 22, 2018 by AronG

[SoundScan]

No, there will still need to be tons of parking, because middle/upper-middle/upper-class people from the suburbs will still view car ownership as a status symbol, which means even if it's autonomous they'll want to own their own. They're not going to subscribe to a car-share service for a multitude of reasons.

[Dale]

9 hours ago, SoundScan said:

No, there will still need to be tons of parking, because middle/upper-middle/upper-class people from the suburbs will still view car ownership as a status symbol, which means even if it's autonomous they'll want to own their own. They're not going to subscribe to a car-share service for a multitude of reasons.

Not that I'm opposed to trains. I'm not. But I can offer a simpler explanation: people like me actually like to drive.

[volsfanwill]

I' m watching a documentary on Netflix right now.   its from PBS called "American Experience; The Race Underground"

I highly recommend it!  the part where people are against building a Subway in Boston is hilarious!  the opponent's arguments sound so familiar.  even in crippling congestion, people were against the solution.  except at that time it truly was an unproven solution.

[SoundScan]

3 hours ago, Dale said:

Not that I'm opposed to trains. I'm not. But I can offer a simpler explanation: people like me actually like to drive.

Curious to know how you plan on "driving" an autonomous vehicle that won't have any user controls. This has nothing to do with trains.

[samsonh]

12 hours ago, Dale said:

Not that I'm opposed to trains. I'm not. But I can offer a simpler explanation: people like me actually like to drive.

Real question: Do you enjoy driving on  our interstates and downtown? I really enjoy driving on some of our beautiful state roads once you get out of town, but could easily do away with ever driving in the city.

[AronG]

20 hours ago, SoundScan said:

No, there will still need to be tons of parking, because middle/upper-middle/upper-class people from the suburbs will still view car ownership as a status symbol, which means even if it's autonomous they'll want to own their own. They're not going to subscribe to a car-share service for a multitude of reasons.

There's no doubt that many people will continue to own cars for a long time. It took a long time for old people to get on Facebook too, and a few still aren't. My point is that if subscription-based services manage to capture even 5% of downtown commuters there's good reason to believe the politics around parking will be upended and a self-reinforcing cycle will begin.

The economic math weighs heavier on the scales every year even without driverless cars. Wasting 6 or 7 stories of your expensive high rise on structured parking is a huge subsidy that is opaquely included in the price of nearly every finished square foot downtown. If banks start to approve financing for retail/residential developments that accurately price in the cost, I think the dam is going to break. When people are given the widespread choice to rent apartments downtown for $1,600/month with a spot or $1,200/month without (alongside a $100/month rideshare subscription) we'll start growing a population with a vested interest in reclaiming a whole lot of wasted public space. I don't think it will take too many to turn the current lop-sided conversation around parking into a debate with loud proponents on each side, at which point the economic/logistical/urban design forces will all be pushing in one direction.

[smeagolsfree]

I enjoy the view from the interstate when traffic is at a standstill.

[Tennessine]

I came up with a what-if transit map for Knoxville, so if any of y'all are interested, come have a look at my newest thread. Thought I would post on this thread since many of you fellow Nashvillians have lived in Knoxville before.

[markhollin]

Electric scooter company continues local operations despite Metro warning:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2018/05/24/electric-scooter-startup-ignores-metro-warning.html

[AronG]

5 hours ago, markhollin said:

Electric scooter company continues local operations despite Metro warning:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2018/05/24/electric-scooter-startup-ignores-metro-warning.html

They require all riders to take a photo whenever they park now, and they've committed to moving improperly parked vehicles within two hours of reports. Metro should follow Austin's lead and pass light regulations requiring a permit and a small per vehicle fee to operate them. Then we should set aside some parking spots in areas where they're popular, accelerate our bike lane efforts, and see where this goes. Every person that gets around on one of these is one less car gumming up the roads.