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The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread


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2 hours ago, AronG said:

Futzing with the interstates downtown will be a huge, expensive, and pointless mess. It would cost billions, cause years of disruption while construction is under way, and will ultimately have no effect on traffic by the time it opens in 2028 or whatever. Here's a $1.6 billion update in Houston that accomplished nothing. Here's another one in LA, same result. It's been demonstrated over and over again. There's no way to increase capacity on urban road networks by more than a small percentage, and even doing that takes so much time and money that it's irrelevant by the time it's complete.

If the goal is to fix single-occupant car traffic, the only thing that works is to make people pay for access (toll lanes, congestion charges, etc.). It doesn't increase capacity to move people, but it provides a simple mechanism to keep traffic moving at the desired clip.

If the goal is to actually increase our ability to move people around the city, we just have to focus somewhere other than interstates and single-occupant cars. There are plenty of ways to increase our capacity by an order of magnitude or more, but we will have to start addressing our development patterns.

Until then we're just spending enormous amounts of money to build elaborate infrastructure for people to sit in traffic jams.

Image result for interstate congestion

Look at all those people enjoying their freedom!!! Right Dale and NB?

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21 minutes ago, jmtunafish said:

That picture looks like it's in China based on the kinds of cars on the road, the license plates, and the architecture of the buildings.  If that's the case, then yes, the ownership of a car is a sure sign of freedom.  For many, sitting in traffic in a single passenger, comfortable, air conditioned car is much more liberating and desirable than the alternative.

Image result for crowded subway train china

Image result for crowded subway train china

image.jpeg.bc76530b53dd20595157d57930e2d7b2.jpeg

I'll take the crammed subway ride and you can have you long car commute with a side of depression and obesity.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/long-commutes-work-employee-depression-obesity-productivity-workers-research-travel-a7749206.html

Also, Why are you comparing the US to developing world countries? Do you not think that USA #1 can do it better? 

Edited by samsonh
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1 hour ago, jmtunafish said:

Actually, that picture is from India:

http://realty-india.com/2016/04/11/urban-life-get-positive-bounce/

in which case it is definitely more desirable to sit in that kind of traffic than to take trains:

Image result for passenger trains india

Image result for passenger trains india rush hour

 

That may be, but as uncomfortable as those photos are to look at, there's a reason all those people are clamoring to ride the train, and that reason is, of course, because it is the only transportation option available to them that they can afford.  Imagine if that train didn't exist.  The mobility radius available to those folks would be reduced to a couple miles at most.  The automobile is fine for those able to own and operate one, but cities like Nashville leave everyone else who cannot out to dry.  

Edited by BnaBreaker
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1 hour ago, SoundScan said:

 

Also, there isn’t a single driver in the U.S. that would survive for more than five seconds in cities in India (or really most of Asia) before being wrecked or being run off the road.

I was actually in Bangalore a few years ago for a close friend's wedding, and I was tasked with bringing some food from the family home to the event location just a few miles away.  Being from Chicago, I thought, how bad could it be?  I mean, I knew it was a little hairy out there just from being driven around as a passenger over the course of the week, but when asked if I was up to the task, hilariously, I actually uttered the phrase, 'no problem, I'm used to city driving' .  Ha!  The arrogance.  I wound up making it to the event center without causing harm to myself or others, thank god, but I'm not sure I have ever been so stressed out in all my life as I was for that fifteen minute drive.  Never again!

Edited by BnaBreaker
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12 minutes ago, markhollin said:

I have been to 54 countries (many numerous times). I have seen and experienced my share of crazed traffic.  But nothing...I mean NOTHING...compares to the utter insanity of being on the roads in Bangladesh.  

Holy crap, I have no doubt in my mind!  What was it like?   Speaking of which, I was informed while in Bangalore that the road system there is supposedly relatively advanced and modern when compared to most places in that part of the world, which almost certainly includes Bangladesh, and I still probably, no, definitely peed my pants a little while driving on those "advanced" roads.  :lol:

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I love that India has an extensive train system, that is truly the #1 mode of transport for all Indians. Of course, this came from being occupied by the British for many decades, but there it is. It's interesting to think that if we, "the Colonies," had been occupied by the British until about 1930, we would have a cross-country, well-developed, extensive train transport system. Alternatively, we developed with cars as our #1 transport, especially after the rise of Ford, and the advent of the wartime Eisenhower interstate system.

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2 hours ago, NashvilleObserver said:

I love that India has an extensive train system, that is truly the #1 mode of transport for all Indians. Of course, this came from being occupied by the British for many decades, but there it is. It's interesting to think that if we, "the Colonies," had been occupied by the British until about 1930, we would have a cross-country, well-developed, extensive train transport system. Alternatively, we developed with cars as our #1 transport, especially after the rise of Ford, and the advent of the wartime Eisenhower interstate system.

A friend of mine is a big time train enthusiast. He's mentioned before, "We [the U.S.] had the best commuter rail network in the world until we decided we'd rather drive."

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6 hours ago, markhollin said:

I have been to 54 countries (many numerous times). I have seen and experienced my share of crazed traffic.  But nothing...I mean NOTHING...compares to the utter insanity of being on the roads in Bangladesh.  

Can't imagine. A tiny country with a population larger than all of Russia! I would like to witness something like that someday. 

Also, I'm a little envious of how well traveled you are! I'm only 21, but I hope to see as much of the world as you have when I'm getting up in years. Maybe I won't have kids until I'm 35 and just travel whenever I can :tw_glasses:

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Sorry to digress from Nashville transportation issues, but since a few of you asked, here are some samples of Bangladesh traffic.  All of this is quite "normal" there.  Traffic lights, signs, lane markers, etc. are all merely "suggestions."  I took an 8 hour van drive (mostly at night!) where I and the other 5 in our group thought at least once every 10 minutes that we were going to die. Hysterical laughing was our only coping mechanism.  

Motorcycle ride in Dhaka:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube+Bangladesh+crazy+traffic&&view=detail&mid=2157DFD389D732C6FFD62157DFD389D732C6FFD6&&FORM=VDRVRV

Pedestrians navigating through traffic in Dhaka:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube+Bangladesh+crazy+traffic&&view=detail&mid=CFF178D47E30578700D2CFF178D47E30578700D2&&FORM=VDRVRV
 

Bus driving at night:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube+Bangladesh+crazy+traffic&&view=detail&mid=AA16EA1601BF6BC4E856AA16EA1601BF6BC4E856&&FORM=VDRVRV

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1 hour ago, PruneTracy said:

We have a cross-country, well-developed, extensive train transport system, and have had more track miles nationally than in Britain since the 1850s. It just carries freight instead of passengers.

Okay I should have specified *commuter.* Freight rail doesn't help me travel unless I'm a rail-jumping vagabond. 

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1 hour ago, NashvilleObserver said:

Okay I should have specified *commuter.* Freight rail doesn't help me travel unless I'm a rail-jumping vagabond. 

Doesn't it? Rail carries about as much freight in the US as trucks (and, notably, the lion's share of long-distance traffic). You can imagine how much worse road travel would be with roughly double the number of trucks on the road, especially in cities with major Interstate junctions like Nashville.

There's a reason passenger rail traffic in the US dropped off in the early 20th century. It's not automobiles (long-distance trips by car are a very small percentage of overall mileage) but airliners. The only distances where rail, even high-speed rail, can compete with air or car on travel time is in the 200-400 mile range, and there are very few corridors in the country of that length that have the travel demand to justify space on an existing carrier's line or the expense of a new passenger-only line.

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4 hours ago, PruneTracy said:

Doesn't it? Rail carries about as much freight in the US as trucks (and, notably, the lion's share of long-distance traffic). You can imagine how much worse road travel would be with roughly double the number of trucks on the road, especially in cities with major Interstate junctions like Nashville.

There's a reason passenger rail traffic in the US dropped off in the early 20th century. It's not automobiles (long-distance trips by car are a very small percentage of overall mileage) but airliners. The only distances where rail, even high-speed rail, can compete with air or car on travel time is in the 200-400 mile range, and there are very few corridors in the country of that length that have the travel demand to justify space on an existing carrier's line or the expense of a new passenger-only line.

Yeah...about the only place with distance / density of people for this to work (like in Europe or other countries that are either compact or densely populated) is the northeast.  Weirdly, the areas where the first European settlers landed are still the most densely populated areas with town after town after town closely situated together.  As people spread out west...they REALLY spread out (in comparison)...especially past the Mississippi River  (other than the coast).

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17 hours ago, Hey_Hey said:

Keep an eye on Elon Musk's The Boring Company

I'm not in any way qualified to evaluate it but most of the transit folks I follow online seem to think Musk is all hype and no substance in this area. Example: https://pedestrianobservations.com/2017/12/15/elon-musks-ideas-about-transportation-are-boring/ 

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Taking a break from summer vacay to again engage the group-think. 

I am not advocating that a double-decker interstate system is the answer to our traffic congestion in Nashville as I have seen no metrics (costs, time savings, etc...) to support such a position. Yet, neither have I seen data supporting mass-transit (as proposed by the recently defeated referendum) as a solution for Nashville.  Yet, when comments are made again and again deriding the 'cars are a way of life' mentality of most of your fellow citizens it convinces me that all of you are also ensconced in your own 'mental' prisons. 

I get most commenting on this thread are strong mass-transit enthusiasts, yet your strong support for these large, tax-intensive proposals have not been able to convince Nashvillians of their net benefit. I do not believe all of these voters are uneducated bumpkins beholden to the Koch Bros. In fact, since the most recent vote was held in one of the few 'blue' (D) voting counties in TN it leads me to believe the case for Mass-Transit fell short based on economic considerations or cost v benefit.

To pivot just a bit, I am curious if any of you are concerned about the transfer of wealth from the poor to the middle class and wealthy in many of these transportation programs – historically and present day.  Quickly coming to mind are projects such as – Amtrak, the Concorde, small municipal airports, present day high-speed rail schemes etc..…

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