The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[Pdt2f]

2 hours ago, Bos2Nash said:

^^ To an extent I like this. I am still very skeptical/concerned with a dedicated center turn lane due to human nature to try and use it. Living just off Hermitage since January I cant believe how many people use the center turn lane as a normal traffic lane when they are feeling impatient. 

The center lane on Hermitage is a flex lane where it is a downtown-bound lane for morning rush hour and outbound-lane during evening. There are lights indicating when it can be used as such. 

3 hours ago, Bos2Nash said:

Wildly successful feathers mind you lol. S/U-Bahn, London Tube are just two examples of systems (with radically different fare systems mind you) that allow their respective cities to run very smoothly. London has even gone as far to have a congestion tax implemented on the city core. Want to talk about irrational fear/anger... propose that on the downtown Nashville core

Lol I don’t think making it basically impossible for anyone who isn’t a millionaire to drive downtown (which is the result in London) is a desirable outcome or a politically possible one in Nashville, nor do I view opposition to something like that as evidence of irrational fear or anger. 

[smeagolsfree]

I don't think many of us really care as this is decades and decades out as the construction cost on a project of this nature is monumental to say the least. Elon Musk is so full of it sometimes it makes me laugh. He is a smart guy, and a dreamer but sometimes he does stuff just to get the headlines.This may or may not become reality but the best speed they can accomplish right now is 290 MPH in their latest competition. 

 

He is having trouble with his Electric cars catching fire right now not to mention I would not even think about riding one of his rockets into outer space. 

[Bos2Nash]

2 hours ago, Pdt2f said:

The center lane on Hermitage is a flex lane where it is a downtown-bound lane for morning rush hour and outbound-lane during evening. There are lights indicating when it can be used as such. 

Lol I don’t think making it basically impossible for anyone who isn’t a millionaire to drive downtown (which is the result in London) is a desirable outcome or a politically possible one in Nashville, nor do I view opposition to something like that as evidence of irrational fear or anger. 

I totally understand the light sequencing of the turn lane, and I also understand the traffic benefits (ie conflict points), but people are impatient by nature and use that lane when it is not the right time to use that lane. As @PaulChinetti mentioned, I guess I should notify police as I see it. 

I by no means am advocating for a congestion charge for Nashville (at least not now), but that is one of the drastic scenarios one could give. (I mean the honky tonk owners believed the TBM was going to violently rumble their bars and damage their buildings). But if you think about it hard, if it was prohibitively expensive to drive a car downtown, how would people move around? At least in an ideal world, granted the argument could & would be made that it would hurt the economics of the city, but what if it was harder to drive downtown and the city did not require so much parking downtown. How would people get around?

Edited July 23, 2018 by Bos2Nash

[PaulChinetti]

Birds... oh wait. 

[grilled_cheese]

http://www.wsmv.com/story/38710347/east-nashville-neighbors-battle-over-bike-lanes

[Guest]

nyc bus and subway ridership takes hit....thanks tonuber and lyft

 

Quote

It is a question that has vexed transit officials for some time: Why, even as New York City’s population increases, is subway and bus ridership declining?

Now, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority thinks it has the answer: Uber.

In a presentation to MTA board members in lower Manhattan on Monday, New York City Transit Executive Vice President Tim Mulligan showed how dips in weekday subway ridership between 2016 and 2017 coincided with increase in taxi and for-hire vehicle ridership.

Though Mr. Mulligan didn’t mention Uber by name, the app-based ride-hail company dominates the for-hire vehicle market in New York.

Mr. Mulligan said the data was the best evidence the authority has found to date showing not just a correlation, “but actually causation” between subway ridership declines and the rise of for-hire vehicle and taxi trips.

Between 2016 and 2017, total for-hire vehicle and taxi ridership grew 13.1%, Mr. Mulligan said. That growth was “strikingly similar” to the reduction in subway and bus ridership over the same period, he added.

Uber accounts for most of the approximately 70,000 app-based, licensed for-hire vehicles in New York City, dwarfing the roughly 13,600 licensed yellow cabs.

“The best way to boost subway ridership is to improve service,” said a spokesman for Uber Technologies Inc., adding that could be best achieved through congestion pricing, which would charge drivers to enter the busiest parts of Manhattan.

New York City added almost 500,000 residents between 2010 and 2017, according to U.S. census data. Yet annual subway ridership plateaued in 2015 before falling by 0.3% in 2016 and by 1.7% in 2017. So far this year, it is down 2.1%. Even total trips on unlimited 7-day and 30-day MetroCards are down, falling 3.5% between 2015 and 2017.

Mr. Mulligan said the transit ridership decline in New York is comparable to trends in other cities nationally and internationally where the rise of app-based ride-hailing mirrors a decline in mass-transit usage.

 

While peak-hour subway ridership remains strong, off-peak-hour ridership and ridership within and between the outer boroughs have seen the biggest declines.

Mr. Mulligan noted that the neighborhoods farthest from lower Manhattan were the same areas that have seen the largest increase in for-hire vehicle trips.

Between May 2017 and May 2018, subway ridership within the Bronx and Queens fell by 8.2 percent and 6.6%, respectively.

That concerned MTA board member Peter Ward, a union official representing hotel workers. Mr. Ward said it appeared those who could least afford it were paying for ride-hailing because the transit system isn’t good enough.

The MTA attributes some of the decline in ridership to its own service outages. As the agency works to reverse declining subway performance and modernize the 472-station system, it has increased overnight and weekend line closures, even closing some stations for months while it carries out renovations.

MTA board member Scott Rechler asked Mr. Mulligan to analyze the data further to see whether there is a correlation between ridership declines and a subway line’s on-time performance.

The fall in ridership presents significant problems for the MTA. Mr. Mulligan said that because peak-hour ridership remains high, the authority must still provide the capacity to service periods of high strain on the system. Meanwhile, overall ridership declines are leading to a fall in revenue. As of May, New York City Transit’s farebox revenue was $9.4 million, or 2.4%, below budget.

 

[PaulChinetti]

31 minutes ago, grilled_cheese said:

http://www.wsmv.com/story/38710347/east-nashville-neighbors-battle-over-bike-lanes

I read this last night, sounds like every "battle" that takes place in East Nashville. 

That road had 9309 aadt in 2016, I'm sure it's more now. I wonder what the limit is. Seems incredibly small. Compared to 8th Ave S which was 21,756 aadt.

I can't think of any roads with the 1 lane one way and 2 lanes the other, which sounds like what they want to do?

Charlette past White Bridge has the center turn lane 1 one lane each way and bike lanes I believe and they had 27656 aadt in 2016.

 

https://www.tdot.tn.gov/APPLICATIONS/traffichistory

[Guest]

Not sure this is irrational...ha

Quote

"There's a safety factor when you have constricted space," McCullough said. "You can't funnel everything down to just one-lane direction. We want people to be safe, but we don't want one lane in each direction when you've got the stadium over here."

According to a spokesperson for Councilman Scott Davis, many crashes happened after bike lanes were added and a four-way stop removed at the nearby intersection of Cleveland and North 9th Street.

 

33 minutes ago, grilled_cheese said:

http://www.wsmv.com/story/38710347/east-nashville-neighbors-battle-over-bike-lanes

 

[PaulChinetti]

10 minutes ago, nashville_bound said:

Not sure this is irrational...ha

Ha, I guess when you talk about East Nasty you have to be clear, I didn't mean either side was right/wrong. Just saying the numbers don't support that Cleveland is some really busy road.

Game days are going to be busy on any road regardless of how many lanes there are. 

""I was speaking with one of the neighbors down the street and she said, 'please fight this because I wouldn't be able to get out of the driveway if it happens,'" McCullough said. "She wouldn't be able to.""

I did wonder why this person wouldn't be able to get out of her driveway?

[grilled_cheese]

28 minutes ago, PaulChinetti said:

Ha, I guess when you talk about East Nasty you have to be clear, I didn't mean either side was right/wrong. Just saying the numbers don't support that Cleveland is some really busy road.

Game days are going to be busy on any road regardless of how many lanes there are.  

""I was speaking with one of the neighbors down the street and she said, 'please fight this because I wouldn't be able to get out of the driveway if it happens,'" McCullough said. "She wouldn't be able to.""

I did wonder why this person wouldn't be able to get out of her driveway? 

I live on a two lane street similar to Cleveland and sometimes it is difficult to get out of the driveway, especially if I did not pursuit park the previous time I parked.  It's only bad around rush hour but I have never not been able to get out of my driveway.

[Rockatansky]

On 7/20/2018 at 7:40 AM, grilled_cheese said:

Wait, didn't we already try to push the Amp?  People rejected that because it "wasn't enough".

This. We tried the 'start small' approach first and it didn't work. So we went big, but that didn't work either. This is why the failure of the referendum was so exasperating.  For the time being, there is no good route forward on transit.

On 7/21/2018 at 9:18 AM, nashville_bound said:

The vast majority of people want change ONLY if they believe it to be net positive.

I disagree. I think many, if not most, want change ONLY if it benefits them directly. No sense of the greater good.

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, Rockatansky said:

I disagree. I think many, if not most, want change ONLY if it benefits them directly. No sense of the greater good.

come on...greater good? never has there been such a misused phrase.

[Tennessine]

Agree that there is rarely a sense of the greater good. It's just how Americans function socially. We're a highly individualistic culture. Until the simple majority of residents determine it will make life more affordable for them to use transit, we will never be able to approve a plan. Most people would still rather drive no matter which form of transportation is offered, as driving your own vehicle symbolizes luxury and privacy. There isn't much of a sense of greater good in Bellevue, Donelson, or Madison for those living near the core who voted in favor of the plan. 

I think the only thing that could tip the iceberg would be high gas prices. I'm waiting for the day when gas is $5 per gallon. At that point, we will see a significant demand in universal transportation and less of an urge to say, "I'd rather drive." 

[12Mouth]

I'm guessing this may not be popular here, but I think the problem with trying to pass transit is the consolidated city/county government. I think that it made sense at the time (when Nashville was a sleepy city) and would be a complete mess trying to undue, but urban Nashville and the rural outlying areas of the county just have vastly different interests now.

[PaulChinetti]

https://www.curbed.com/word-on-the-street/2018/7/13/17246060/scooters-uber-lyft-bird-lime-streets

Big article with so many links. I think Nashville should really try to start this mentality, that our city is for us, not cars,  and Broadway would do that perfectly. There are alleys for deliveries (or they could be scheduled in the morning when it's not busy) It's constantly busy and how many times a year is it shut down anyways. Have uber/lyft/taxi drop off points on 1st and 5th. If not permanently why not start on the weekend, the baby-iest of steps.

The comments are of course gold...

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, nativetenn said:

Agree that there is rarely a sense of the greater good. It's just how Americans function socially. We're a highly individualistic culture. Until the simple majority of residents determine it will make life more affordable for them to use transit, we will never be able to approve a plan. Most people would still rather drive no matter which form of transportation is offered, as driving your own vehicle symbolizes luxury and privacy. There isn't much of a sense of greater good in Bellevue, Donelson, or Madison for those living near the core who voted in favor of the plan. 

I do not disagree with your post, but my critique of the phrase' greater good' was an indictment on the ill-defined meaning of the phrase itself and not of the individualistic tendencies of our fellow citizens. 

For instance you claim, "There isn't much of a sense of greater good in Bellevue, Donelson, or Madison for those living near the core who voted in favor of the plan",  is quite outlandish from my perspective...and I live downtown. Are you also arguing 'there isn't much sense of the greater good in the core for those living to in Bellevue, Donelson, or Madison'?
Could one man's 'greater good' simply be another man's folly?
 

Edited July 24, 2018 by Guest

[Tennessine]

13 minutes ago, nashville_bound said:

I do not disagree with your post, but my critique of the phrase' greater good' was an indictment on the ill-defined meaning of the phrase itself and not of the individualistic tendencies of our fellow citizens. 

For instance you claim, "There isn't much of a sense of greater good in Bellevue, Donelson, or Madison for those living near the core who voted in favor of the plan",  is quite outlandish from my perspective...and I live downtown. Are you also arguing 'there isn't much sense of the greater good in the core for those living to in Bellevue, Donelson, or Madison'?
Could one man's 'greater good' simply be another man's folly?
 

I was stating that voters in those districts of Davidson County did not approve the transit plan because they did not believe it would make life any better for them, instead increasing their tax burden.

As for the "greater good" ideal, no, voters living outside the core are much less likely to vote for the plan if the effects don't forseeably trickle down to them. The transit plan would likely make downtown Nashville more walkable, easier for tourists to navigate, modernize the city's infrastructure, and pay itself off in terms of long-run economic activity. By voting for that, you could argue that you have voted not necessarily in your own interest, but rather for the prosperity of the city. Instead, I argue people are much less likely to vote for something if they do not think it will improve their own situation. Thus, "greater good" is an abstract idea that most voters never prioritize. One's own interest comes first, and that absolutely showed on May 1st. 

And I was just using those precincts (Bellevue, Donelson, Antioch, Madison) as a specific example of how communal values often take the backseat to individualism. Voting in one's own interest does not equate to selfishness. 

Edited July 24, 2018 by nativetenn
Typos

[Pdt2f]

2 hours ago, nativetenn said:

And I was just using those precincts (Bellevue, Donelson, Antioch, Madison) as a specific example of how communal values often take the backseat to individualism. Voting in one's own interest does not equate to selfishness. 

Well judging from the numbers in those districts the “no” vote was pretty communal. Maybe it was a “this won’t benefit my community” vote rather than a “this won’t benefit me” vote. 

[PaulChinetti]

1 hour ago, Pdt2f said:

Well judging from the numbers in those districts the “no” vote was pretty communal. Maybe it was a “this won’t benefit my community” vote rather than a “this won’t benefit me” vote. 

Well I’m pretty sure they made it abundantly clear that they don’t want anything in their neighborhood (see AMP). So why give it to them, then they would vote no for that reason. 

Edited July 24, 2018 by PaulChinetti

[Neigeville2]

6 hours ago, nativetenn said:

Agree that there is rarely a sense of the greater good. It's just how Americans function socially. We're a highly individualistic culture. ...

Sorry, but you make me mad,  "Americans are individualistic" is one of those vague excuses (like "love affair with the automobile") that wouldn't have to be repeated so often if it were true.  The Americans I see around me are herd animals to an extraordinary degree-how they dress, what they say, how they vote;  living in vast tracts of incredibly similar houses each with its incredibly similar plot of grass.   "What do I get out of it" is really "what do people like me get out of it"-my herd.

This lack of common purpose varies cyclically.  If you go back to the WWII era, we drafted men of every social class  into the army,  built Social Security, the Veterans Administration, the FHA, replaced vast slums with public housing, expanded public colleges and established steeply progressive taxation.  Now we can't pass a budget.   As a city, the best we can hope for is some kind of transit tax on urban districts to fund what the people in those districts want, and even then the Nimby's will make it a huge hassle until it's built.  We live in irritating times.

[nashvillwill]

14 hours ago, PaulChinetti said:

I read this last night, sounds like every "battle" that takes place in East Nashville. 

That road had 9309 aadt in 2016, I'm sure it's more now. I wonder what the limit is. Seems incredibly small. Compared to 8th Ave S which was 21,756 aadt.

I can't think of any roads with the 1 lane one way and 2 lanes the other, which sounds like what they want to do?

Charlette past White Bridge has the center turn lane 1 one lane each way and bike lanes I believe and they had 27656 aadt in 2016.

 

https://www.tdot.tn.gov/APPLICATIONS/traffichistory

There is a lot more to this story than the article includes. But it boils down to this; Months of public meetings, countless neighbors adding input, a final plan that checked most boxes for everyone involved. A democratic process. The definition of “community plan”.

Then at the 11th hour, our Councilman vetos the plan. When constituents try to communicate with him about why, we get radio silence. Unanswered emails, voicemails, and social media messages. He never attended a single meeting, nor does he attend our neighborhood meetings. 

This is the status quo in District 5. 

Then a month later, we get these stories in the Tennessean, quoting none other than Sam McCullough, who is BFF with our Councilman. 

Edited July 25, 2018 by nashvillwill

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Neigeville2 said:

This lack of common purpose varies cyclically.  If you go back to the WWII era, we drafted men of every social class  into the army,  built Social Security, the Veterans Administration, the FHA, replaced vast slums with public housing, expanded public colleges and established steeply progressive taxation.  Now we can't pass a budget.   As a city, the best we can hope for is some kind of transit tax on urban districts to fund what the people in those districts want, and even then the Nimby's will make it a huge hassle until it's built.  We live in irritating times.

Mods just FYI, I have posted more on point transit items today, but this topic is garnering the most activity. 

I will be brief...

The  WWII generation is rightly venerated for putting life and limb at risk in the battle against fascism.

 Having said that, many of the items you list as ‘common purpose’ (greater good) successes are in retrospect, cautionary tales. 

draft - pretty sure that is not a positive compared to an all volunteer force

SSN - a ponzi  scheme run amuck in practice... directly led to lower birth rates and reduced individual savings

VA- an unaccountable, corrupt state controlled ‘health-care’ organization which is only in business because of a ‘captive’ market

FHA - least bad of the list

Urban Renewal - more miss than hit

steeply progressive taxes - ha, and this is proclaimed as a positive why?

SMH but that is alright. Anyway I am going to bow out and try and get the thread back on topic. 

 

Edited July 25, 2018 by Guest

[Pdt2f]

1 hour ago, nashville_bound said:

draft - pretty sure that is not a positive compared to an all volunteer force

I pretty much agree with every point you’ve made except this one. All-volunteer forces, as we have seen over the past 18 years, create a “warrior caste” that is seperated from the vast majority of Americans and the fact that they’re volunteers and in many cases career soldiers means that governments have much less incentive to deal honestly with the public about ongoing conflicts. The “citizen armies” of the World Wars gave every American a stake in defending their country, and when the military is made up of people from every social and economic walk of life it becomes much harder to explain to mothers, wives, and children why their sons, husbands, and fathers are fighting endless wars without concrete objectives. 

That being said, for this particular issue I actually agree with @12Mouth about the sheer size of the metro being an problem in issues like this. Like downtown may as well be in a different city than Bellevue or Hermitage, and just claiming that the people who voted against transit in those communities were voting complete self interest and against the “common good” (and I share @nashville_bound‘s disdain for that term) shows complete downtown-core-bias. Can anyone answer me why the residents of Bellevue should pay higher taxes to give people in downtown or east Nashville an alternative way to get around, besides the fact that they have “Nashville” on their mailing address? As many of you know I voted (on the first early-voting day) for transit and share many of your desires for a better transit system, but what I don’t share is a disdain for those who vote against it, nor am I going to turn them into the devil and make myself into some sort of saint for voting on opposite sides of an issue like this. 

[grilled_cheese]

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/07/parking-has-eaten-american-cities/565715/

 

Maybe if we take away their parking spaces the suburbanite leeches will either stop invading our city and stealing from us or maybe they will finally get on board and work with us to build a transit system.

[PaulChinetti]

"and just over 100,000 in tiny Jackson, which has a population of about 10,000."

 Good Lord!! That's crazy, Why so many spots, for tourists?