The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[rookzie]

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Has anyone ever ridden on the greenline?  I see it drive around, I know where the stops are but I can never see anyone ride it and can't imagine any locals let alone tourists using it.  Anyone know how successful or non-successful it is?  Let's scrap that project if need be and throw the money to other parts of the city.

 

Do you mean the Music City Circulator, which some refer to as the "green bus", because of its loud colors?

 

There are 3 of these designated routes, if indeed this is what you are referring to ─ Blue, Green, and Purple Routes on their destination boards (even though all of them are green on the exterior finish).  You sometimes might even observe some of these special-purpose green buses "marauding" around town usually during early morning, appearing out of place as if they were stray dogs or something.  This appears to be some sort of operational logistical measure, during a predicted high demand period, when some coaches may be in the process of being serviced before deployment.  They do appear a bit tacky to be seen on standard service routes, when their touted purpose is as recognizable dedicated downtown circulators only (hence their loud colors).

 

In the event that you are referring to the "green bus", then as far as I have observed, it (they) only seems to be near capacity during the early morning rush, particularly the Nº60 - Blue Circuit, which appears primarily to serve State workers in NoBro downtown (north of Broadway), although it likely serves other employers' staff as well in that sector.  This makes sense, since State workers are allowed a tap card as a perk, and those entering town via the MCStar usually flood the Blue Circuit upon arrival of the three morning trains.  This particular route also seems to utilize the NABI and NewFlyer articulated units, instead of the normal green buses during these particular times, although they still are free for all.  (I myself have ridden it from the train from time to time)  Even when I have ridden it during the mid-day lunch-hunch period, I have noticed (via stereotype) relatively few "tourists" board those things, compared to natives and workers, so to me it does not even come close to fulfilling the initially boasted purpose.

 

While the the Nº60 - Green Circuit serves the Gulch area and might be arguably justifiable in providing that sector some convenient connection to "midway" east of the RR tracks, the Nº62 - Purple Circuit is totally useless anyway you look at it, as it serves only those shuttling between Riverfront Station and the Fulton Complex at Second and Lindsley.  I have ridden it only to go get my tags renewed or for early voting.  I honestly doubt that tourists even touch that route (except to kill time), and most urban dwellers in that portion of downtown tend to walk anyway, as close as they are to Broadway.

 

The fact is, throughout the day, none of these circulators are particularly filled even to 1/3rd capacity, except perhaps during events (and during commute times), as they all pass either near of by the MCCenter on Demonbreum, and each meets at Riverfront Station.  I agree that this was a waste of funding from the very start, and I have always felt that the MTA would be far better off adopting the free-zone ride model for all (or most) standard bus routes passing into and away from designated downtown boundaries, as found for decades in districts like Seattle and Portland (OR).  Free-zone does have its problems, but it is far more cost effective than operating three separate circulator route sets on 15- or 20-minute headways for 12 hours a day.

 

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Edited August 26, 2014 by rookzie

[Neigeville2]

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Has anyone ever ridden on the greenline?  I see it drive around, I know where the stops are but I can never see anyone ride it and can't imagine any locals let alone tourists using it.  Anyone know how successful or non-successful it is?  Let's scrap that project if need be and throw the money to other parts of the city.

 

I'm only downtown on the weekends but I have ridden the green shuttles from time to time, it seems to gradually be used more, last time I was on it, it was about 2/3 full, but I see them go by seemingly empty all the time.  From the conversation I could tell at least some of the other riders were tourists.  I have heard they are used during lunch and that some denizens of the gulch ride them to work. It is an excellent service and I wish it were better known and used. When the next wave of apartments is built around the ballpark, residents might have much use for such a shuttle. 

 

I think this kind of service has tremendous promise if you can get the volume to the point where they run every 5 minutes instead of 15.  As others have noted in this thread, bus service becomes a completely different thing when it's really frequent.  I envision a city where people park near the edge of activity centers and ride shuttles, this is one of the few things that might significantly reduce traffic in Green Hills and could revolutionize Cool Springs.

 

I'm curious if some of the green bus funding comes from DT businesses?  Given the strong opinions on Nashville transit many of us have, it's surprising how little we seem to know of the inner workings.

[nashvillwill]

Regarding the validity of the "downtown circulator", I like something that I saw in Seattle. They have a "free zone" in the CBD. Anyone can get on any transit, and as long as you board and exit within the "free zone" it's...well....free.

I do understand the slight difference in Nashville with the hub and spoke system and the problems it may cause, but I bet it would serve 85% of needs with the regular bus routes and be a better use of funds.

The lack of free transfers is preposterous.

[nashvylle]

can someone that has access please post the pictures and the synopsis from the Post's article on The Amp?

 

Thanks

 

https://www.nashvillepost.com/news/2014/8/26/amp_station_design_shows_arch_inspired_touch

[rookzie]

Regarding the validity of the "downtown circulator", I like something that I saw in Seattle. They have a "free zone" in the CBD. Anyone can get on any transit, and as long as you board and exit within the "free zone" it's...well....free.

I do understand the slight difference in Nashville with the hub and spoke system and the problems it may cause, but I bet it would serve 85% of needs with the regular bus routes and be a better use of funds.

The lack of free transfers is preposterous.

 

With "spoke" routes radiating every which way from the CBD, the layout lends itself perfectly to a free-zone model, notwithstanding that free-zone can be adapted to almost any layout.  It's yet another adaptive use of what's already in place, while actually fulfilling the benefit with much more diversity and enhancement of route paths.

 

It does though require a change in the way fares are collected system-wide, as well as fare-evasion monitoring personnel, in many cases, as Seattle's King Co. has recognized early on.

 

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[nashvillwill]

It does though require a change in the way fares are collected system-wide, as well as fare-evasion monitoring personnel, in many cases, as Seattle's King Co. has recognized early on.

 

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And that's where the RFID tags come in. Many (probably most) transit systems in the US have a "pay to board" policy. This is easy and the most basic, but it doesn't solve any problems. Conversely, most of the transit systems in the Bay Area (as you may well know, Rookzie) have a "tag-in, tag-out" policy. That way the system knows where you entered and where you exit. The purpose for this in the Bay Area is because of their zones pricing structure. The further you travel (crossing zones) the more your fare increases. Through RFID, this can easily be accounted for and charged accordingly. I know some people wouldn't like the zoned pricing model as to say it's "unfair", but I really enjoyed it while living out there, and i paid one of the highest fares. 

 

Zones, would balance things out within MTA. There could be a CBD free zone. But just thinking hypothetically (and without dreaming up any specific zones), here is how zone pricing may work. And i'm just making up numbers here;

 

 

Capital Hill to Music City Center= within free zone, no charge

Vanderbilt to Downtown; Cross 1 zone= $1.15

Airport to Downtown; Cross 2 zones= $1.55

H.H. Mall to Downtown; Cross 3 zones= $ 2.05

Smyrna to Downtown; Cross 4 zones= $2.55

Murfreesboro to Downtown; Cross 5 zones= $3.10

 

Murfreesboro to Smyrna; Cross 1 zone= $1.15

Five points to G.H. Mall; Cross 2 zones= $1.55

Smyrna to Smyrna; Intra zone= $0.85

West End & 28th to West End & 18th: Intra zone= $0.85

 

Just a thought.

[Hey_Hey]

Considering how long it's taken to get real time GPS for MTA, we're looking at 2025 for RFID to be rolled out. And that's if they started tomorrow.

[Nashville Cliff]

I'm only downtown on the weekends but I have ridden the green shuttles from time to time, it seems to gradually be used more, last time I was on it, it was about 2/3 full, but I see them go by seemingly empty all the time.  From the conversation I could tell at least some of the other riders were tourists.  I have heard they are used during lunch and that some denizens of the gulch ride them to work. It is an excellent service and I wish it were better known and used. When the next wave of apartments is built around the ballpark, residents might have much use for such a shuttle. 

 

I'm curious if some of the green bus funding comes from DT businesses?  Given the strong opinions on Nashville transit many of us have, it's surprising how little we seem to know of the inner workings.

 

The circulator does not receive any of its funding from downtown businesses.  It is funded through the normal MTA budget, though money for the buses came from ARRA stimulus grants, if I remember correctly.  MTA is supposed to be switching to smaller, electric buses next year for the circulator routes.  I think this is a good idea because they will be more readily identified as something other than a normal bus, will be more environmentally sustainable, and will be more appropriately sized.  The board of Transit Now had vigorously argued for smaller buses from the start, but MTA understandably went where the money was.  They'll be able to reflag the existing buses for use on other routes such as the Charlotte BRT light.  BTW, the yellow parking shuttles are at least partially funded by downtown businesses (and residents) through the special property tax assessment used to operate the Downtown Partnership.

[Rockatansky]

can someone that has access please post the pictures and the synopsis from the Post's article on The Amp?

 

Thanks

 

https://www.nashvillepost.com/news/2014/8/26/amp_station_design_shows_arch_inspired_touch

Its no longer behind the paywall.

[rookzie]

Its no longer behind the paywall.

 

thanks....

 

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[farm_boy]

I use the Music City Circuit on a regular basis. Works great. No need to convert it to "AMP" loop, in my opinion

[Nashville Cliff]

I use the Music City Circuit on a regular basis. Works great. No need to convert it to "AMP" loop, in my opinion

 

It isn't being converted.  It would continue to serve downtown while the Amp would connect West to East through downtown.  They serve different purposes with the circulator serving as the free way to move people around within downtown.  The circulator route may be adjusted to better connect the convention center to the Amp stops and the rest of downtown.

[rookzie]

It isn't being converted.  It would continue to serve downtown while the Amp would connect West to East through downtown.  They serve different purposes with the circulator serving as the free way to move people around within downtown.  The circulator route may be adjusted to better connect the convention center to the Amp stops and the rest of downtown.

 

That's what I've always been thinking.  I would see the DT-circs as being system enhancements to the Amp.

 

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[nashmoney]

Info on expanded hours and frequency improvement for the DT circulators

 

http://www.nashvillemta.org/pdf/fn232.pdf

[Vrtigo]

Info on expanded hours and frequency improvement for the DT circulators

 

http://www.nashvillemta.org/pdf/fn232.pdf

 

Thanks! Would love to see an updated map when one is available.

[etimer13]

Thanks! Would love to see an updated map when one is available.

Map is available on the MTA website under Fall 2014 Service Changes.  Basically the green route now turns north on 5th and goes up to Sulphur Dell and comes back down 5th, then heads west on Demonbreun.

[nashmoney]

Thanks! Would love to see an updated map when one is available.

 Its on the attached slideshow, along with some other interesting things - no mention of the AMP in Future Projects or Master Plan

 

Wonder why?

 

http://www.nashvillemta.org/pdf/fn205.pdf

[nashvillwill]

If you notice under "future projects" two action items are there;

-update MTA master plan

-Development of first RTA master plan

I wouldn't let the omission of AMP fool you. This is simply the operational objectives. You can't operate something that doesn't exist. The title of the document says it all "Proposed Fall 2014 Service Changes". We all know that AMP will not be rolling by fall.

[Vrtigo]

Back on the Music City Circuit topic: I'm absolutely baffled as to why the new routing has 60% of both the Green and Blue routes covering the exact same path. What in the world is that going to accomplish? I know they are trying to make 5th Ave a major thoroughfare through the city, but what a waste!

Edited September 3, 2014 by Vrtigo

[smeagolsfree]

The charging station for the new electric buses will be at the new Ball park site. So both buses will travel 5th to get there. I agree, it is not very efficient.

[rookzie]

Back on the Music City Circuit topic: I'm absolutely baffled as to why the new routing has 60% of both the Green and Blue routes covering the exact same path. What in the world is that going to accomplish? I know they are trying to make 5th Ave a major thoroughfare through the city, but what a waste!

 

The Blue Circuit (which was the first to begin service of the existing 3 - Blue, Green, Purple) serves the Riverfront Station.  This must be kept in place for the morning and afternoon MCStar riders, as the Blue in part replaced a former Nº94, a route that connected train riders to the CBD NoBro districts.  Mainly this former route served primarily state workers of downtown destinations.  At the time of inception, Nº94 had been put in service as a means to provide single-fare passage for all Star riders who worked downtown or who needed to connect to any MTA route traveling away from downtown.  (This actually began during Sept. 2006 coinciding immediately with the inception of MCStar service.)

 

No. 94 traveled along a somewhat meandering path, from Riverfront Station, west along B'way, north on 2nd, west on Union, north on 3rd, west on Gay, south on 4th, west on Deaderick, south on 6th, west on Commerce, south on 8th (Rosa Parks), west on B'way, north on 9th (where it appeared to be picking up or discharging Lifeway workers), east on Commerce, south on 7th, and east on B'way to Riverfront Station.  This was modified in late 2008 to serve the then new MCCentral terminal.  When Nº94 was put in service, the RTA (then operated as a separate entity from the MTA) was well aware that state workers formed the initial "bulk" of the Star riders terminating downtown.  Its sister bus Nº93 remains to this day to serve Vandy/Belmont and mid-town workers (since Vanderbilt and Belmont also were among the first to provide tap-card perks for their employees).

 

When MTA began the DT circulator, it started with the Nº60 Blue Circuit, which was intended to serve the dual purpose of shuttling downtown workers from and to the MCStar at Riverfront and as a free-ride circulator, thereby replacing the limited-use Nº94.  To be able to handle the morning commute from the MCS at Riverfront, the Blue has had to utilize an articulated coach, instead of the standard single 40-ft bus painted rally-green. (these "dedicated" green buses instead are used as "mules" to serve any other route during the early morning rush).

 

Therefore MTA maintains this Blue Circuit to Riverfront (and which still connects with the Nº62 Purple Circuit to the Fulton Complex at Rolling Mill/Rutledge Hill).  Nº61 the Green Circuit route is intended primarily to connect the Gulch to the rest of DT, and it always has been the only circulator that crosses the viaducts to the west side of the tracks.  There does not appear to be a real need for the Green to run past the MCCenter and then serve Riverfront; instead the Green can provide the advantage of allowing more convenience for Gulchers and non-Gulchers to connect between the Blue and the Green along the highly destined 5th Ave.  The Blue line now travels north along 5th to the Bicentennial/Sulphur Dell area (actually north on 5th, west on Jas.Rob Pkwy, north on 7th, east on Harrison, and south on 5th, east on Jas. Rob, and south on 4th.  The modified Blue and Green will coincide and will continue on 5th (instead of turning west on Jas. Rob), pass under the train tracks, and turn west on Harrison, then turn north on 6th.  The most noticeable service enhancement here is the extension of the free ride all the way to near the north end of the Bicentennial Mall area, and then travel via reverse route all the way south to Demonbreum (along 5th instead of the current 4th).

 

What I cannot yet understand is how to make out the intention of the turn loop shown on the proposed change, at what appears to be Jackson Street, just southeast of the big circular 95-bell carillon and plaza.  When they tore down the old Farmers' Market, back in the '90s, they chopped up Jackson Street (even more than it already had been since the late '60s with the construction of I-40/I-265 in North Nashville).  According to that map, It appears that Jackson Street will have to be re-opened to allow for some kind of loop-back between 5th and 6th.  Right now I'm confused, because presently nothing is there except brown-fields and broken pavement (a piece of Jackson), and a loop-back as shown, requires 2 east-west cross streets, but no other nearby street exists without fouling Jefferson.  I cannot see this happening with any permanence, until the the ball park gets more underway.  We'll just have to wait and see what does go starting Sept. 29.

 

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Edited September 4, 2014 by rookzie

[Neigeville2]

Back on the Music City Circuit topic: I'm absolutely baffled as to why the new routing has 60% of both the Green and Blue routes covering the exact same path. What in the world is that going to accomplish? I know they are trying to make 5th Ave a major thoroughfare through the city, but what a waste!

 

They are saying the frequency is being increased along 5th to 7-8 minutes, if I'm reading it right they are doing this by running both buses on a staggered schedule.  I'm all for this as every 15 minutes is too long a wait for this type of service IMO.  I'm eager to see what this does to ridership.

[rookzie]

They are saying the frequency is being increased along 5th to 7-8 minutes, if I'm reading it right they are doing this by running both buses on a staggered schedule.  I'm all for this as every 15 minutes is too long a wait for this type of service IMO.  I'm eager to see what this does to ridership.

 ...especially when at the sidewalk, you're looking at the back of one (that you've just missed).  It would be better not to have seen it at all.

[nashvylle]

Please use existing rail tracks for a commuter rail from Clarksville to Nashville!

 

https://www.nashvillepost.com/blogs/postbusiness/2014/9/4/rta_studying_clarksville_corridor_options

[nashvillwill]

Since this news broke this morning, I've been trying to figure out the feasibility of commuter rail. Maybe someone can help me out.

From what I can see, CSX operates a line east of I-24 that goes through Springfield onto what looks like Hopkinsville. There appear to be abandoned tracks running from Clarksville to Ashland City, but from what I've seen (so far) is that they stop in AC. Or perhaps they are picked up at that point by a current user.

Can anyone figure out what would be the most logical (and executable) route?