The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[MetroTN]

I wonder if rail from downtown into the suburbs, where a lot of commuters come from, would be viewed more favorably?

[SoundScan]

I wonder if rail from downtown into the suburbs, where a lot of commuters come from, would be viewed more favorably?

 

People in the suburbs have been talking about this for decades. The problem is once they get near downtown how do they get anywhere else? We can't just load their cars up on the commuter train and have them all drive off. There has to be a viable in-town transit network available for commuter rail to make any sense.

[mirydi]

I wonder if rail from downtown into the suburbs, where a lot of commuters come from, would be viewed more favorably?

Possibly, but I doubt it would be because they want to ride it. Lets face it...99% of the people in this region commute by vehicle, and I assure you the vast majority of them aren't willing to park their cars to ride a bus or train. That's just the way it is here unfortunately. I commute into town back and forth from Smyrna everyday, and let me tell you it's a nightmare most of the time...but I still would rather deal with the traffic then hop on a bus or train to be honest with you. That is unless it's going to drop me off and pick me up at the doorstep of my house and work...Lol. Heck, even if that was offered, I still probably wouldn't ride it. The last thing I wanna do when I wake up to go to work, or get off, is sit outside waiting in the cold or rain for however long, and then get into a crammed bus or train full of annoying smelly people yapping away on their cell phones. No thank you...

 

For the record, I do support mass transit. Especially along the I-24 corridor. But it definitely ain't cause I wanna ride it...

[BrandonTO416]

I see your point, Brandon. Still, one could argue that the (purported) benefits of larger roads are self-evident. It's difficult to imagine that these projects would have faced much scrutiny when we have all been trained to loathe sitting in traffic, and equally trained to believe that bigger/wider roads equals less traffic.

 

There is a lot of precedent that needs to be addressed, IMO. It seems like a monumental battle, but people have to be convinced of the benefit of mass transit before they will support it. If people can be so sure of a false premise (more roads = less traffic), then there has to be a way to right that thinking in favor of transit.

 

I'm actually not anti-highway, but I've said before that it should be appropriate investments. For example, I'm not opposed to upgrading I-24 to 8 lanes/4 bi-directional all the way to Clarksville. Clarksville is growing fast thanks to its military presence, and it'll likely be a metropolitan area of 400,000 people by 2040 which is centered only 40 miles from downtown Nashville. Forward thinking has to realize this is going to be a problem and I-24 in its present form can't handle that. It takes years to plan and fund and build an upgrade that significant, and planning has to begin today.

 

I also support a rail line like the STAR service between the two cities as well.

 

But on the contrary, I'd support destructing the central highway system around Nashville as I mentioned much earlier here on this forum. Central Nashville is eaten alive with criss-cross Interstate highway hell. Its more dangerous driving on these merging-hell highways than it is to drive the FDR freeway in Manhattan.

 

Anyway, the point is that infrastructure needs to be updated now, not in 20 or 30 years. Nashville needs governing bodies that fund projects and isn't put to a vote. Although that didn't seem to help AMP, the point still remains something needs to be done about transport in middle Tennessee. The highway system is a mess and there's no rapid transit system.

[AUNash]

A bit off topic but interesting as a comparison ... In Atlanta, Emory University is apparently taking a very active role in pushing for light rail connecting the campus and the CDC with Marta's heavy rail system. They are pushing a roughly 8-mile line that would serve an area w appx 30,000 employees. They've apparently been pushing the idea for over 15 years and still don't have dedicated funding. But what caught my attention is the University's high profile role. Is Vandy supporting transit so publicly?

From article on Emory website:

Two public meetings set for early December are among the next steps in a multi-year effort to bring light rail transit to the Clifton corridor, including stops convenient to the Emory campus, Emory University Hospital and the CDC.

"This effort goes back 17 years, and this is the latest required step in what has been a protracted political and community process," says Betty Willis, senior associate vice president for government and community affairs at Emory. "This project is widely viewed as critically important to support this thriving employment center, and I have no doubt it will come to fruition once funding has been identified."

...

The Clifton transit project has been a key priority for Willis, who also serves as executive director of the Clifton Community Partnership and president of the Clifton Corridor Transportation Management Association.

The proposed 8.8-mile light rail line would connect the Lindbergh MARTA station to the Avondale MARTA station, offering commuting options for the tens of thousands employed by Emory, the CDC, Children's Healthcare, DeKalb Medical Center and other businesses and institutions.

The area is one of the largest employment centers in the metro region that is not served by either MARTA's heavy rail train system or easy access to an interstate highway, Willis notes. The CCTMA estimates the corridor is home to over 30,000 employees, with close to 50,000 cars passing through the area each day.

[nashvylle]

one of Stop Amp's biggest supporters was a vanderbilt "professor" (ie someone who doesn't currently have any real world mass transit experience). His solution for Nashville's traffic was... to add more cabs. 

 

I think Vandberbilt as a whole might be onboard, unless Lee Beaman is a donor. 

[grilled_cheese]

MARTA, itself, does not have dedicated funding, is that correct?

[Guest]

http://www.politifact.com/georgia/statements/2010/aug/10/michael-tyler/marta-chairman-said-system-receives-no-significant/

[rookzie]

one of Stop Amp's biggest supporters was a vanderbilt "professor" (ie someone who doesn't currently have any real world mass transit experience). His solution for Nashville's traffic was... to add more cabs. 

 

I think Vanderbilt as a whole might be onboard, unless Lee Beaman is a donor. 

 

As adamantly and vehemently vocal as Lee Beaman has been on the E-W Connector issue, especially given that he personally has offered no positive or palatable alternative (with or without collaboration), perhaps the true litmus test will come with some new single or choice of proposals from the next administration, particularly as it (they) might relate to the West End of the city.

 

So far, he has not been cornered with a sufficient or rather comparative number of "clinical trials" to see just how much knee-jerk he can be on surface transit in general.  It may be unfair to brand him as absolute, contingent only on his outspoken sentiment to the Amp as originally proposed, especially in consideration of some sharply argued points on both sides of the "net".  It's not as if Beaman has been yet another Texas Congressman Tom Delay, nearly unequaled as a stalwart and self-acknowledged foe of mass transit in general.  Delay was highly recognized for his pandering with special interests in the oil and auto industries, particularly against the city of Houston during the late 1990's, prior to Houston's entry into rail rapid transit.

 

Not courting or refuting any argument of Lee Beaman on transit, but if and when any future so-called "sensible" transit alternatives are posed for "attack", then perhaps the jury no longer will be "out" on type-casting for the role.

 

-==-

[bigeasy]

So I don't really have to deal with lots of traffic to my work. (I work in Brentwood and live just 6-7 miles away) That being said, I had to go to Hermitage area after work on Friday from Brentwood. Long story short, I would HATE this city if I had to deal with that traffic daily. I really do fear we are turning into Atlanta. I think the only difference is they have 5-6 lanes of people sitting still, and we have 3-4.

 

I am sitting here getting frustrated just thinking about how big of a mess 440 was. It took me over an hour to get home and I left work early for a Friday. The whole time I was just thinking about my trips to Chicago and how great it would be if I could just hop onto a bus/train. 

 

A few weeks ago I did a google maps direction from my place to work using public transportation. I am not sure how exact it is, but to go 7 miles it would of taken 3 1/2 hours. The walk option was faster, not joking. 

Edited November 24, 2014 by bigeasy

[BnaBreaker]

So I don't really have to deal with lots of traffic to my work. (I work in Brentwood and live just 6-7 miles away) That being said, I had to go to Hermitage area after work on Friday from Brentwood. Long story short, I would HATE this city if I had to deal with that traffic daily. I really do fear we are turning into Atlanta. I think the only difference is they have 5-6 lanes of people sitting still, and we have 3-4.

 

I am sitting here getting frustrated just thinking about how big of a mess 440 was. It took me over an hour to get home and I left work early for a Friday. The whole time I was just thinking about my trips to Chicago and how great it would be if I could just hop onto a bus/train. 

 

A few weeks ago I did a google maps direction from my place to work using public transportation. I am not sure how exact it is, but to go 7 miles it would of taken 3 1/2 hours. The walk option was faster, not joking. 

 

Not to rehash old arguments, but isn't that so refreshing to have the freedom of choice between multiple reliable transportation options?!  It stuns me with confusion every time one of the anti-AMP people try to argue that BRT will limit freedom somehow.

[nashvylle]

Meanwhile on west end....

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/blog/2014/11/amp-opponents-respond-to-mta-chief-s-letter-to.html

 

"It is our position that a careful, conservative steward would move forward to develop a long-range plan with a regional approach and to develop that plan with transparency," 

- IE WE ARE FINE WITH THE CURRENT SYSTEM; DON'T DARE DO ANYTHING DIFFERENT OR WE WILL BRIBE OUR STATE REPRESENTATIVES

 

"no one has made a compelling case for this corridor [West End]."

EXCEPT THE CONSULTANTS, WHICH THEY ARE NOT.

[grilled_cheese]

I was fine with the article until the 'compelling case' line.  Everything else can be up for discussion, differing opinions, etc but when someone tries to say there has not been a compelling case made?   SMH.  If someone had not made a compelling case then we wouldn't be having this discussion. 

[Hey_Hey]

So I don't really have to deal with lots of traffic to my work. (I work in Brentwood and live just 6-7 miles away) That being said, I had to go to Hermitage area after work on Friday from Brentwood. Long story short, I would HATE this city if I had to deal with that traffic daily. I really do fear we are turning into Atlanta. I think the only difference is they have 5-6 lanes of people sitting still, and we have 3-4.

 

I am sitting here getting frustrated just thinking about how big of a mess 440 was. It took me over an hour to get home and I left work early for a Friday. The whole time I was just thinking about my trips to Chicago and how great it would be if I could just hop onto a bus/train.  

 

Traffic has become noticeably worse in the roughly 2.5 years that I have lived in Nashville. I-65 south of town used to almost never back up (the one exception was i-65 north as it comes into downtown and merges with i-40 south of the gulch), but now there are regular traffic backups at OHB, Concord Rd, 440 and Harding Place. I-40 east has backed up at the 65 merger south of the Gulch since I have been here, however the traffic usually would back up beginning around 4:30PM and extend only to Demonbreun. Now it begins backing up at 3:00-3:30PM and will routinely back up to Church and will often extend past Charlotte. Traffic now backs up on 440 going west, which is used to never do.  24 is a perpetual traffic jam in the afternoons and mornings, and 65 north of town is a mess, but that's likely because of the construction beginning at Trinity Lane. 

 

I was in Cool Springs last week (I go about once every month or so with my wife) and was attempting to come back into Nashville at 5:00PM. Traffic backed up just north of Moore's Lane and was bumper to bumper to at least OHB, all because of a minor fender bender (I checked on Waze). The point at which I sat completely still for over a minute was when I decided to get off at Concord Rd and take Franklin back into town. 

 

I say all of that to point out that there seems to be an inflection point when it comes to traffic. At that point there is an almost exponential increase in the duration of delays that develop. We are at that point, and things are going to get a lot worse before they get better even if we were building out a comprehensive transit network today. Traffic is now affecting almost every resident of the Nashville Metro area as there is essentially no excess capacity anywhere. Even without an incident occurring there are traffic backups throughout the area, and if there is any type of incident at all then traffic backups are massive.  Almost everyone in the Nashville area sees this traffic and understands something has to be done to deal with it.  I really believe that if someone can put together a comprehensive plan, fund it with a dedicated taxing source, and market it in a way that shows everyone how they will benefit then the citizenry will be behind the plan. 

[volsfanwill]

I live in cool springs, off of moores lane.  I check my google maps gps on my phone as i leave every morning, probably 4 days out of the week the back up from moores to concord or even all the way to OHB is so bad It recommends I take Franklin road. so I do. I get on at OHB. if it says the time is equal, that really means just at that moment, I 65 is backing up quickly and will actually be slower, so in that case I take I 65.  I work at 100 Oaks and can easily come home for lunch at mid day in about 14 minutes but in the mornings I have to allow minimum 25 minutes. if there is any minor fender bender north of OB it could and has taken 45 minutes or more.

[nashvylle]

Traffic has become noticeably worse in the roughly 2.5 years that I have lived in Nashville. I-65 south of town used to almost never back up (the one exception was i-65 north as it comes into downtown and merges with i-40 south of the gulch), but now there are regular traffic backups at OHB, Concord Rd, 440 and Harding Place. I-40 east has backed up at the 65 merger south of the Gulch since I have been here, however the traffic usually would back up beginning around 4:30PM and extend only to Demonbreun. Now it begins backing up at 3:00-3:30PM and will routinely back up to Church and will often extend past Charlotte. Traffic now backs up on 440 going west, which is used to never do.  24 is a perpetual traffic jam in the afternoons and mornings, and 65 north of town is a mess, but that's likely because of the construction beginning at Trinity Lane. 

 

I was in Cool Springs last week (I go about once every month or so with my wife) and was attempting to come back into Nashville at 5:00PM. Traffic backed up just north of Moore's Lane and was bumper to bumper to at least OHB, all because of a minor fender bender (I checked on Waze). The point at which I sat completely still for over a minute was when I decided to get off at Concord Rd and take Franklin back into town. 

 

I say all of that to point out that there seems to be an inflection point when it comes to traffic. At that point there is an almost exponential increase in the duration of delays that develop. We are at that point, and things are going to get a lot worse before they get better even if we were building out a comprehensive transit network today. Traffic is now affecting almost every resident of the Nashville Metro area as there is essentially no excess capacity anywhere. Even without an incident occurring there are traffic backups throughout the area, and if there is any type of incident at all then traffic backups are massive.  Almost everyone in the Nashville area sees this traffic and understands something has to be done to deal with it.  I really believe that if someone can put together a comprehensive plan, fund it with a dedicated taxing source, and market it in a way that shows everyone how they will benefit then the citizenry will be behind the plan. 

 

 

Our next mayor HAS to work with the MTA, the state, etc. from DAY ONE to get a comprehensive plan forward and get a dedicated funding source in his or her first term. Unfortunately, the entire region could be behind this plan, but it just takes one car dealer to not like it, and then blackmail some state representatives who can theoretically create a bill on a whim that says "no rail transit, bus rapid transit, streetcar transit, in the state of Tennessee without the state legislature giving final approval" :/

[gannman]

Steve Turner: The Amp got off-track, but that might not be such a bad thing

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/blog/real-estate/2014/12/steve-turner-the-amp-got-off-track-but-that-might.html

 

Steve Turner for Mayor 

Edited December 9, 2014 by gannman

[nashvylle]

Thanks StopAmp! 

[farm_boy]

^^ Agreed. We really dodged that disaster

Steve Turner makes some excellent points. All the changes to the original amp proposal made it useless, so better to leave mass transit to the next mayor that can focus on it.

I really like the idea of a dedicated route to the airport from downtown. BNA is just not on any other route (Murfreesboro Pike or Lebanon Pike). Maybe that should be our first step.

[nashvylle]

I was being sarcastic, mainly because I think they are going to oppose any mass transit. Hope I am wrong, praying that the next mayor tackles mass transit right away. 

[BnaBreaker]

I was being sarcastic, mainly because I think they are going to oppose any mass transit. Hope I am wrong, praying that the next mayor tackles mass transit right away. 

 

Agreed.  We're going to have to wrestle with some faction of naysayers regardless of what alternative plan is trotted out there.  It's not as if the Stop-AMP people were holding out for light rail or something.

[MLBrumby]

Okay... here I go again [eyes rolling]... if the AMP had been proposed for another route, it would have been much more acceptable by the public.  I'm just taking a stab... but first... the route down West End was a threat to all those who use the thoroughfare in their morning commute (driving).  Second, it cut very close to Belle Meade (too close perhaps)... I acknowledge the St. Thomas connection and support therein.  However, if the "core" of the AMP had been proposed as a loop around Midtown with two access points in/out of downtown with a transfer at the Music City transfer center, I believe that would have gained a lot of support.  I think that's what should be touted in the next plan... I have given that route on previous posts, and I've seen others here lay out similar type routes. A linear route down West End just doesn't get a lot of buy-in.  It's all political, right?

[MetroTN]

I agree. If the route down West End isnt support, suggest a new route that is supported.

[Nathan_in_DC]

Showing it as part of a greater transit network with planned expansion, intermodal connections (including future rail [either light, commuter, intercity, or a combination], park-and-ride, and intercity bus [MegaBus and Greyhound]), and other routing options being advertised earlier in the game would have really helped the chances of success. The Amp people utterly failed at making it look like a part of a bigger plan to help Nashville's traffic woes. Even I had a hard time getting behind it because I saw it as being another dead end, one-off project. I'm sad to see it go, but I'm hopeful that the next mayor will get his nose to the grindstone and make something better happen.

 

[begin tangentially connected rant]

It was funny, leaving Nashville eastbound on I-40 a couple of weeks ago at around 6AM, I passed lines and lines of cars that are no worse than what you see going up I-95 into DC during the morning rush hour. To think that there is literally zero other options for the vast majority of commuters is absurd. Even the MCS isn't a real option for most people, even if they live near a stop and work within a half-mile or mile of the station, because of the laughable headways and lack of connections to get elsewhere. They have to be able to run multiple trains per hour, even two would suffice, if they ever want to attract real ridership. And the way they designed the system means that is never going to happen.

[BnaBreaker]

Okay... here I go again [eyes rolling]... if the AMP had been proposed for another route, it would have been much more acceptable by the public.  I'm just taking a stab... but first... the route down West End was a threat to all those who use the thoroughfare in their morning commute (driving).  Second, it cut very close to Belle Meade (too close perhaps)... I acknowledge the St. Thomas connection and support therein.  However, if the "core" of the AMP had been proposed as a loop around Midtown with two access points in/out of downtown with a transfer at the Music City transfer center, I believe that would have gained a lot of support.  I think that's what should be touted in the next plan... I have given that route on previous posts, and I've seen others here lay out similar type routes. A linear route down West End just doesn't get a lot of buy-in.  It's all political, right?

 

I wasn't referring to anyone and everyone who was opposed to the project, but rather, specifically referring to the actual "Stop-AMP" group.  Few amongst that crowd seemed to support any real alternative and didn't exactly scream enthusiasm for increasing mass transit options.