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The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread


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I love the idea of a Downtown/Midtown/Germantown loop.  To be clear, however, are we still talking about dedicated lanes or are we expecting these buses to sit in the same traffic with everyone else?  Either way, the residents and visitors of the core will certainly benefit, but I'm not sure how such a plan helps people get through the clogged arterial inroads on their way to downtown in the first place. 

 

I also think that an Airport to Downtown monorail is a good idea, though I'm similarly skeptical about how much intracity road congestion will be reduced in the short term.  Have there been any traffic studies on the practical impact of such a project?

 

I think Steve Turner said all the right things in the post article above.  He's got the right idea both in principle and in terms of the political sensitivities that he'll have to tip-toe around.  That said, I'm just not sure how you get the 'buy in' from the opposition that he's hoping for when he's up against arguments like 'Nashville is just a car town' and 'Government spending and mass transit are bad ideas' and, as always, 'Not In My Back Yard!!!' 

 

I genuinely think that Turner is expecting the traffic to get so bad in the interim that people will be ready to support anything by the time he (potentially) has to worry about it in an official capacity. 

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I really do think it's nigh on criminal that the only way to get from one of the busiest airports in the Southeast to the city it serves, which is in turn one of the fastest growing cities in the country, is a dingy bus that only operates once per hour. It's an embarrassment that the MTA and the city's leadership should be ashamed of.

 

Perusing the schedule just makes it look like even more of a joke. If you have the misfortune of catching a bus between noon and 5:30, it could very well take you 45 minutes to get downtown.

Edited by Nathan_in_DC
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I think the benefits of an airport connector go beyond reduction of intracity congestion. In fact, I'd argue that when it is being planned, that traffic reduction shouldn't even be a primary selling point.  Rather, it has to do with increasing connectivity and making it quicker and easier to get from the airport to downtown and other points. Conference goers, tourists, residents, and visitors shouldn't be forced to take an irregular bus or expensive cab if they don't have friends or family to pick them up. 

 

I completely agree about the benefits and importance of a quality airport connector.  My point was simply that an airport connector is not an attempt to address the same issues as the AMP and therefore it's not really a substitute.  The only reason we're discussing an airport connector in this thread is because it was raised as an alternative to the AMP and possibly a good first leg to a new mass transit system, which is not the purpose that an airport connector would serve. 

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... Either way, the residents and visitors of the core will certainly benefit, but I'm not sure how such a plan helps people get through the clogged arterial inroads on their way to downtown in the first place. 

...

 

IMO it's premature to talk about doing anything for suburban commuters until they have a real network to get around on once they get to town.  I think we need to build something nice airport-DT right now if the fiscal will were there (I'd like to see elevated driverless trains like they have in Vancouver , but at least some kind of elevated system to give tourists and business visitors views of the city), but we need some kind of really comprehensive system for getting around Midtown/DT/Germantown and over to East Nashville, before we can work on something more high speed for distant parts, hopefully elevated rail of some kind.  

 

I'm still unconvinced on BRT outside of the third world, I think it's only proposed in the US because of the massive decline in infrastructure spending here.  In places like Jakarta where it took all the myriad buses clogging the streets and got them out of the way so both the buses and the cars could move at speed, it makes sense.  

 

Eventually it makes no sense not to have heavy rail Franklin to DT, but that is a long way off.  For that to work, not only Nashville but Cool Springs have to have really workable circulation once commuters get there.

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I agree with the DT to airport route. That could be marketed as helping almost everyone who travels to the airport. It frees up parking spots, it gets cars off I-40, and people can take it to the airport to save on parking costs. The other benefit is that much of the cost of upkeep will be paid by tourists that are coming into town by way of ticket sales. It also provides a great marketing tool for Nashville since there will be a captive audience for 10 minutes while getting downtown. A really good first impression goes a long way to getting return visitors.

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Even Mr. Turner said that BRT makes no sense running on crowded (aka main) thoroughfares.

 

I'm not sure exactly what Turner means regarding the problems of running BRT through crowded thoroughfares.  Is the issue with the BRT or with the crowded thoroughfare part of the equation? 

 

To be clear, I too would prefer rail to BRT--but it's just a personal preference.  To me, dedicated lanes are the important part--after that my inclination for fixed track over bus tires is negligible.  I got the impression that the city promoted BRT because they were afraid about the anticipated taxpayer blowback if they'd chosen the more expensive of two similarly operating options.  Most everybody prefers trains over buses as far as I know, so the relative cost of each is the only reason of which I'm aware for the city's decision to go with BRT instead of rail with the AMP proposal in the first place.  Maybe that apprehension was unfounded on metro's part, in which case, lets get started on the light rail ASAP. 

 

On the other hand, if Turner's (and/or your) concern is putting the route on an already crowded thoroughfare, then we disagree.  Half of the battle with creating new transit systems is establishing buy-in and getting people to adopt the new service.  Granted, that battle is a lot easier for mass transit supporters when the streets are so crowded that people will try any other alternative available (even if such an experiment requires that they go somewhat out of their way) in order to avoid the gridlock.  That said, when building a new mass transit system and hoping to encourage new ridership, it seems like a no-brainer to put the route somewhere highly traveled that has residences, offices, shops, and other destinations already in place. 

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I was speaking about the political flack that AMP has received. No doubt, much of it is due to the proposed route on West End. Whether that makes sense or not logistically (and we'll disagree on that point), it brought a lot of political resistance that might have been averted if a loop had been proposed along parallel streets (1-2 blocks from West End).  IMHO, it doesn't matter which particular route is selected as long as passengers can get to their destinations without undue hassles. Not to mention the transit oriented development that would pop up along those routes. 

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I do not.

 

The most recently built monorail in the US (Las Vegas) cost $163m per mile to construct. For the 8 mile route between Downtown and BNA that works out to $1.3b.

 

Dedicated ROW transit (BRT or LRT) would be just as effective and far less costly.

 

Good points. 

 

To be clear, I only mean that a downtown to airport monorail is a good idea in the sense that flying cars are a good idea.  I think it would be great to have an airport to downtown monorail, but it's not very high on my personal wishlist, and as you've made very clear, is not even remotely feasible from a financial standpoint.

 

Similarly, as has been brought up by a couple others, I think there are many benefits to be gained from some kind of connector from the airport to downtown even though the monorail is off the table.  Again, this kind of connector is a good idea, but is not high on my personal wishlist.  As I see it, there are diminishing returns to more efficiently bringing people into the city without having first improved their ability to get around the city once inside.

 

The only point that I've been trying to make is that building an airport to downtown connector is a fine project to begin to investigate, but it does not (and, as has been noted by others, should not) attempt to address our more pressing intracity traffic and mass transit issues.   

Edited by ruraljuror
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I think most people can agree that a monorail (specifically) is an very expensive investment regardless of how useful it would be. Every time some talking head mentions it, there is a large debate about it.

That doesn't mean that we shouldn't be having a discussion of rail (of another form) to the airport.

Murfreesboro Rd would certainly be a good candidate for LRT. It could terminate at the airport. Sure, it may not get you downtown in 3 minutes, but it should in 15-20. It would serve the community as well as visitors/travelers. It would solve the confusion that many tourist may have upon arrival of how to get downtown. It would also relieve some apprehension that potential visitors may have when they hear there is no transit in Nashville.

Edited by nashvillwill
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I do not.

 

The most recently built monorail in the US (Las Vegas) cost $163m per mile to construct. For the 8 mile route between Downtown and BNA that works out to $1.3b.

 

Dedicated ROW transit (BRT or LRT) would be just as effective and far less costly.

 

Dr. Rock, this is at least one thing that we do totally agree on.  Probably Turner was just as "star struck" on monorails as was State Senator Bill Ketron, in his call for a study on one to Murf'boro earlier this year.

 

The extremely high construction costs of the Las Vegas monorail (let alone the costs of maintenance and mechanical failures over the years) probably is one reason that the Las Vegas Monorail has yet to be extended, as hoped for over ten years now, to the McCarran airport.  Given that the airport is almost in the heart of Paradise (literally, the name of community in which it is located), and very close to the MGM Grand on the southern end of the strip, one might have thought that the LV monorail, by now, could have been extended beyond its current southern terminus at MGMt, and on to the UNLV campus and the airport, but with the proposed use of private support for such an awaited extension, the funding for this has stalled, although the new extent would be under 5 miles.

 

People in high places apparently haven't always left the "front yard" on the concept of a monorail, while they really should be aware, when in the public eye.  I would like to believe that Turner merely used the term "monorail" generically to refer to any rail-bound transit, just as one would use "Thermos" in stead of "vacuum bottle". (I'm guilty myself of calling every refrigerator the "Frigidaire").  Perhaps I am too forgiving.  But I will give both men top honor for even publicly conceiving the idea of something dedicated.

-==-

Edited by rookzie
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I certainly do not think that monorail is the way to go in this situation, if for no other reason than it will require require dedicated rolling stock (floating stock?) that will only be compatible with other monorail lines. I would much prefer something that could integrate easily with a future LRT or heavy rail transit.

 

Something I always thought would fit well in Nashville would be something similar to SEPTA's (Philadelphia area transit) Route 101 and 102 trolleys. They run standard light rail stock on existing right of way when in more dense urban areas, however they switch to dedicated right of way reminiscent of old interurban rail systems for high speeds between neighborhoods. This would be nigh on perfect for Nashville, with its still somewhat disparate sections.  Alternatively, something like SEPTA's Norristown High Speed Line could be good, too. It has entirely dedicated, traffic separated right of way with no road crossings, elevated boarding platforms, and runs trolley-size third-rail powered cars that can be linked together for peak service and that have on-board fare collection, limiting the cost of new station construction.  There are a lot more things out there than either LRT/BRT or Monorail. There are proven, effective, and efficient services that have served other major metropolitan areas for a hundred years, and have served them well.  No need to reinvent the wheel if you don't have to.

 

If you want to see a real boondoggle, and one that I am convinced originated because people decided to sell some pie-in-the-sky plan because they knew full well it'd never be accepted, look at Norfolk/Virginia Beach's proposed monorail.  Of course, that's a region that has a boatload of problems anyway...including city leadership in VA Beach that flat out said that they didn't want the Norfolk brown people in their town (I sincerely wish I was exaggerating that more than I actually am).

Edited by Nathan_in_DC
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I certainly do not think that monorail is the way to go in this situation, if for no other reason than it will require require dedicated rolling stock (floating stock?) that will only be compatible with other monorail lines. I would much prefer something that could integrate easily with a future LRT or heavy rail transit.

 

Something I always thought would fit well in Nashville would be something similar to SEPTA's (Philadelphia area transit) Route 101 and 102 trolleys. They run standard light rail stock on existing right of way when in more dense urban areas, however they switch to dedicated right of way reminiscent of old interurban rail systems for high speeds between neighborhoods. This would be nigh on perfect for Nashville, with its still somewhat disparate sections.  Alternatively, something like SEPTA's Norristown High Speed Line could be good, too. It has entirely dedicated, traffic separated right of way with no road crossings, elevated boarding platforms, and runs trolley-size third-rail powered cars that can be linked together for peak service and that have on-board fare collection, limiting the cost of new station construction.  There are a lot more things out there than either LRT/BRT or Monorail. There are proven, effective, and efficient services that have served other major metropolitan areas for a hundred years, and have served them well.  No need to reinvent the wheel if you don't have to.

 

If you want to see a real boondoggle, and one that I am convinced originated because people decided to sell some pie-in-the-sky plan because they knew full well it'd never be accepted, look at Norfolk/Virginia Beach's proposed monorail.  Of course, that's a region that has a boatload of problems anyway...including city leadership in VA Beach that flat out said that they didn't want the Norfolk brown people in their town (I sincerely wish I was exaggerating that more than I actually am).

 

[edited, re-edited for syntax]

 

Well, they said the same thing, just not verbatim, when I lived both in Va. Beach and in Norfolk during some 12 years in the '80s and early '90s.  Yes, the Beach even has seriously considered the misinformed decision to evaluate proposing Mag-Lev (Magnetic Levitation) "transit", which for all "practical" purposes is an oxymoron at best.  Mag-Lev technology is may work in China and Japan, where the intercity distance and density warrant, but not for transit ─ urban or "interurban"/commuter.  You might as well built an Alaska pipeline from your garage to your lawn mower or an aqueduct to irrigate your townhouse front yard.

 

The thing about it is that a big rabble has developed in the Beach, after Norfolk went ahead and used a little-used existing straight-shot freight line and built it's first LRT segment ("The Tide") from just west of DT Norfolk (near Eastern Va. Med. Cntr.) to the eastern border between it and Va. Beach.  While by no means a cure since it opened in 2011, ridership on the single current segment served by the Tide has far exceeded expectations.  There appears to be an unspoken clash between the deemed self-righteous "natives" of the Beach and the more transient potential users of LRT, who are comprise a very high percentage of the military enlisted forces and who frequently have chosen to rent or to buy in the Beach for commuting to the bases, a primary one of which is located on a far side of Norfolk opposite its border with the city of Va. Beach.

 

I think I stated in a much earlier post a year ago, that the Beach seemed to have garnered a possible interest in extending the Tide into its corporation limit to serve its primary business center (Pembroke Town Center) and eventually closer to the tourist district at the oceanfront.  The Beach even went as far as purchasing the remainder of that abandoned freight line within its border, some of which has been converted to trail at its eastern extremity, since I worked for the firm which once owned and operated it (Norfolk Southern Corp.), but in part due to the inability to approve funding, no extension project can get underway.  The Beach commuters must continue to use I-64/I-264, 17th St.-Va. Beach Blvd. (US-58), or Shore Drive - Oceanview Ave. (US-60) to reach the bases from Va. Beach (in addition to just getting to those arterials).

 

As far as Philly's airport is concerned, at least SEPTA (SE Pa. Transptn. Auth.) was able to reconstruct an abandoned rail line split off from the main Amtrak NE corridor trunk serving DT (the massive 30th St. Station), and run existing single or multiple-car  commuter-rail heavy electric self-propelled cars to the airport.  The way that the separate concourse "terminals" are arranged in parallel, each terminal has its own station located underneath each concourse at the "near" ends where they join the main terminal concourse near the baggage carousels.  Any one train serves each of the 4 concourse stations in series, each with high platforms to provide fast entry/egress, and arriving air passengers relatively easily can either claim baggage and return to any concourse, or without checked luggage can proceed directly within a concourse and descend to hop on a SEPTA train from any of the four terminals (rather than have to congregate at a single boarding point).

 

Of course, Philly long had the infrastructure already in place to accomplish this in 1985.  They also have had the volume to justify 4 airport loading terminals, AND their trains have 30-minute headways from 5 am to midnight, undoubtedly a costly operation.  While expensive with any alternative for rail, if Nashv'l elected to use commuter-rail (to comply with FRA requirements for mixed-use RoW), it could have the potential option of expanding on a little used branch of the CSX from the Chattanooga Sub-Division near Currey Road and the Mill Creek area (which serves Vought-Triumph Industries - formerly Avco Aerostructures).  This could bring an airport connection directly into the the Union Station area, which for practical purposes is all but "used up" by development, not to mention the new announcement of the $52 M acquisition of the station by the Pebblebrook Hotel Trust, an investment firm in the state of Maryland.

 

Comparing Philly outright with Nashv'l is an apples-to-oranges likening, and in terms of commuter-rail, streetcar, and interurban rail, Philly historically has had these in place for a century, as a whole.  But in terms of mobility and accessibility needs, a comparison would be more analogous to a common orange and a small clementine (fruit).  I never said that this would be on the cheap or even would be a high-ranked candidate as any option, but it does exist as an alternative for study, but since the gulch rail assets are "endangered", nearly extinct, and perhaps too costly to reclaim, not much else remains for a "common-core" meeting point for a comprehensive transit system with an airport tout.

-==-

Edited by rookzie
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Just thought I'd share a conversation I just had at work.   our Christmas Party is this week downtown and we get to leave work early that day to go home and change clothes. 

friend who lives in Donelson. "hmm, I wonder if the time works out and I can take the train and just uber home" checks MCS schedule. "hell yes I can catch the train and get there just in time"

me "d***, I'm trying to figure out my logistics I really wish I could take a train from Franklin."

girl next to me, "Ugh, it there was a train from Franklin to downtown I would take it every day"

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Just thought I'd share a conversation I just had at work.   our Christmas Party is this week downtown and we get to leave work early that day to go home and change clothes. 

friend who lives in Donelson. "hmm, I wonder if the time works out and I can take the train and just uber home" checks MCS schedule. "hell yes I can catch the train and get there just in time"

me "d***, I'm trying to figure out my logistics I really wish I could take a train from Franklin."

girl next to me, "Ugh, if there was a train from Franklin to downtown I would take it every day"

 

At least I had a wiff, or rather, a taste of what it might be like, when I got to take on an excursion train from Nashv'l to Franklin and Columbia and return, a while back. (quite surreal having cars lined up waiting for you to pass across Concord Rd, Mallory Ln, 3rd Ave., and Lewisburg Pk).

____________

 

It's really too bad that you can't even reverse commute between Franklin and Nashv'l (not any time of day), and the only reverse-commute provision that even in part exists is on the MCS during the morning or the afternoon (one full trip only).  When do you think that you might be gettin' let out? (any rumors?)  What day is you's guys' party?  Too bad it's not on a Friday for the MCS late run.

 

-==-

Edited by rookzie
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Just thought I'd share a conversation I just had at work.   our Christmas Party is this week downtown and we get to leave work early that day to go home and change clothes. 

friend who lives in Donelson. "hmm, I wonder if the time works out and I can take the train and just uber home" checks MCS schedule. "hell yes I can catch the train and get there just in time"

me "d***, I'm trying to figure out my logistics I really wish I could take a train from Franklin."

girl next to me, "Ugh, it there was a train from Franklin to downtown I would take it every day"

Its probably fear of Nashvillian's of having "those people" from Franklin coming into our neighborhood. JK... the regional transit authority needs to get their heads out of their you know what and get busy with a regional plan and implement it now instead of ten or fifteen years down the road. They need to do because the bull is already in the china shop.

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I could seriously see an all day demand for travel between cool springs and downtown. not just commuter, but constant rapid transit.  like between Atlantas cbd and Buckhead, though those are much closer to each other.

I work at 100 oaks so naturally there would be a stop here. and well, this wish is a little self serving.

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I could seriously see an all day demand for travel between cool springs and downtown. not just commuter, but constant rapid transit. like between Atlantas cbd and Buckhead, though those are much closer to each other.

I work at 100 oaks so naturally there would be a stop here. and well, this wish is a little self serving.

Which neighborhood do you live in? We will be sure to put a station there as well.

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