Jump to content

The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread


TopTenn

Recommended Posts

You're absolutely right. My question is why or how exactly those developments are more appropriate than this proposal. It's bewildering that the city, with the tacit approval of its planning staff, would want to dial back a five-story building with transit access in the city center while green-lighting townhouses and three-story apartments three miles away where cars are the only realistic transportation option. It made sense when it was simply a matter of letting developers do their thing but putting a foot down here defies reason.

My point was that the city has typically allowed a certain level of development on the fringes of town without regard to whether the existing infrastructure could support it or even whether it could be improved feasibly in the future to properly support the level of approved development. Note that I'm not trying to pick on Mount Juliet; this is a trait of satellite cities throughout the region if not the country. But I don't really buy the idea that this particular proposal would place a strain on the city's infrastructure any more so than others that were approved and built outside the city center.

The bigger question is whether the level of density of Mount Juliet's nominal town center, especially relative to its fringe developments, is befitting of a suburb of 30,000. Of course, the citizens of that town are entitled to determine that themselves. But the Star station represents a huge missed opportunity by the city to enjoy the benefits of development without the costs associated with typical suburban sprawl.

RTA commuter rail service was a gift dropped in the lap of Wilson County. Simply by virtue of hosting a short line, its communities gained a level of access to the jobs and entertainment options in Nashville's CBD that other satellites, e.g., Franklin, Murfreesboro, etc., don't and maybe never will have. Every other suburb is married to the roads and subject to their congestion. Residents of downtown Mount Juliet and Lebanon could, theoretically, live in the 'burbs and work and play in one of the hottest cities in the nation, without the need to hop in a car and sit in traffic. But unfortunately the operative word is "theoretically" because thus far the only development intended to take advantage of it had to build its own station in an unincorporated area. Everyone else treats it as a glorified park-and-ride.

It's a waste.

You might be preaching to a small choir like me, but in the plain truth it's the most fitting "op-ed" short of a aspersion, appropriately elicited in candor (telling it "like it is").  While I'm generally not opposed to "home rule", where local municipalities, and not regional entities like county consortiums, control development, totally autonomous and disjointed planning is the bane of any predictably measurable exploit of a canonical resource such as a commuter rail line, virtually a silver platter, on the table, as it were.  It's not even potential anymore ─ it's already in place, for crying out loud.  Sure, it might not be tenderloin service straight to the heart of a major activity center, but it's at least "McNuggets", compared to a diet of morning and evening grid-lock assured almost daily.

Inconsistency in zoning and/or arbitrary, puritan restraints on mild variances make it very difficult to meet goals such as sustainability and coordinating development of jobs and housing around transit hubs, because this can ramify into long-term unintended consequences in the collateral development in a district as a whole.  It's a matter of trying to make out the horizon, either before the sun rises or after it sets, rather than making informed and collaborative choices with the apparent.

-==-

Edited by rookzie
Link to comment
Share on other sites


While I'm generally not opposed to "home rule", where local municipalities, and not regional entities like county consortiums, control development, totally autonomous and disjointed planning is the bane of any predictably measurable exploit of a canonical resource such as a commuter rail line, virtually a silver platter, on the table, as it were.  It's not even potential anymore ─ it's already in place, for crying out loud.  Sure, it might not be tenderloin service straight to the heart of a major activity center, but it's at least "McNuggets", compared to a diet of morning and evening grid-lock assured almost daily.

As I've said before, I'm pro-transit, but I'm very much disinclined to waste taxpayer money on projects that only receive a bare minimum of support from the communities that it would serve.

Mount Juliet has added 9,000 residents since the Star began operating; Lebanon, 5,000. Virtually none of them live in developments built to take advantage of daily commuter rail service to downtown Nashville. There appears to be at least some demand for such, as evidenced by the response to RTA's proposal, but the communities don't seem willing to deviate from the same unsustainable growth patterns they followed before.

Again, I'm not trying to pick on Mount Juliet; there are plenty of other communities across the nation who do the same. And yes, the Star isn't as sexy as its purpose-built cousins in Seattle, Denver, or San Diego. But it cost a lot less to establish and it still provides a car-free link from the suburbs to tens of thousands of jobs and world-class entertainment options. If we aren't going to capitalize on the service we have, why should we spend hundreds of millions more to expand it?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As I've said before, I'm pro-transit, but I'm very much disinclined to waste taxpayer money on projects that only receive a bare minimum of support from the communities that it would serve.

Mount Juliet has added 9,000 residents since the Star began operating; Lebanon, 5,000. Virtually none of them live in developments built to take advantage of daily commuter rail service to downtown Nashville. There appears to be at least some demand for such, as evidenced by the response to RTA's proposal, but the communities don't seem willing to deviate from the same unsustainable growth patterns they followed before.

Again, I'm not trying to pick on Mount Juliet; there are plenty of other communities across the nation who do the same. And yes, the Star isn't as sexy as its purpose-built cousins in Seattle, Denver, or San Diego. But it cost a lot less to establish and it still provides a car-free link from the suburbs to tens of thousands of jobs and world-class entertainment options. If we aren't going to capitalize on the service we have, why should we spend hundreds of millions more to expand it?

Until we have some type of transit in the core of Nashville, building / expanding any transit from the suburbs into downtown is just "putting the cart before the horse."  Most people from the suburbs know that once you take transit into downtown...you then have to find some way to get around, unless your only reason for going downtown is the Titans' stadium or LoBro.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Until we have some type of transit in the core of Nashville, building / expanding any transit from the suburbs into downtown is just "putting the cart before the horse."  Most people from the suburbs know that once you take transit into downtown...you then have to find some way to get around, unless your only reason for going downtown is the Titans' stadium or LoBro.

100% agree with you. 

That said, UberX, the (admittedly needing work) free downtown green bus circulator, your own two feet, and BCycle are a good start.  

Edited by RonCamp
added detail about the bus
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Until we have some type of transit in the core of Nashville, building / expanding any transit from the suburbs into downtown is just "putting the cart before the horse."  Most people from the suburbs know that once you take transit into downtown...you then have to find some way to get around, unless your only reason for going downtown is the Titans' stadium or LoBro.

The free Music City Circuit covers the CBD and the Gulch. It stops at Music City Central, where just about every MTA bus route transfers. The latter is a three-quarter-mile walk from Riverfront Station, if you don't like the color green. Not ideal, but not impossible either.

Again, it's all very unsexy. But it exists, and serves its function. And while it's true that we might see an uptick in ridership if it were all replaced with shiny new streetcars or monorails or whatever, we need to ask ourselves if it's worth the cost when the current system garners little, if any, buy-in from the communities it connects.

I find it difficult to believe that Mount Juliet isn't interested in maximizing development around their Star station because its residents find it hard to get around downtown once they get off the train. Rather, I'd wager it has more to do with the fact that their current development patterns are easy to implement and generate more immediate tax revenue for a minimum of investment. I don't really blame them; it's their prerogative, and it works, because the traffic right now is tolerable.

And that's the crux of the matter; the main driver of transit usage isn't the quality of the system, it's the alternative to it. If the drive in from Wilson County took two hours every day as opposed to one on a bad day, the Star would get more attention. If the CBD featured more gridlock and less parking, the Music City Circuit would be more visible. Sometime down the road, it'll be this way. But in the meantime people favor car-centric development.

If we find cost-effective ways to improve transit service, such as using existing short lines for commuter rail, great. If communities want to take advantage of those opportunities to start thinking long-term, even better. But I don't see the point in dropping serious money on new systems, as some of our peer cities have done, if even elected officials are unwilling to accommodate demand for development that supports what we have.

Anyway. Too much wear on my keyboard for this subject.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I still think that one of the best things that can be done to improve transit service and usage is a smart marketing campaign that includes easy to comprehend routing, well marked stops, public awareness advertising, widespread availability of geographically accurate route maps, etc.. Here in NoVA, both Arlington and Alexandria have started publishing comprehensive bicycle/public transit maps of the counties. They have been mailed to most people and made available at various outlets such as coffee shops and markets. Just having a good map that shows me where the bus lines go and where the bike lanes are has made me more inclined to use bus routes I'm not super familiar with, just because it's more comprehensible than the poorly laid out linear maps used at bus stops.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There’s no guarantee that any train from any burb to the center would have been a success, in the sense that ridership would have surged beyond expectations, as few start-ups elsewhere have undergone.  

While at least two other mid-state regional routes overwhelmingly have been deemed more promising and desired, according to popular sentiment, the fact is that the majority of burb commuters do not work in or near downtown Nashville.  Metro Nashville will end up having to pay its “fair” portion for each and every route which would radiate from the center to a given burb terminus in outlying counties.  It also would have to seek funding for the bulk of any urban, local transit network.

Understandably, the satellite regions are expecting the “mothership” to encumber a mother lode of resources needed for developing a regional advanced transportation network.   A fundamental difference between railroad-type commuter rail, like the MCS, and light rail transit is that LRT can be built to serve a dual use as commuter transport for relatively distant movements at relatively higher ground speeds, and like its less beefier streetcar cousin, light-rail can operate at speeds compatible with urban arterial traffic, and it can provide rapid transit with wider stop spacing with or without the use of exclusive travel lanes and signal priority.  Again referring to the Portland Or. TriMet “MAX”, people there have become accustomed to single or expanded trains of 2- or 3-section articulated-unit LRT cars, negotiating turns and traveling along in mixed traffic for short spans of medium-width streets within the core.   These same then assume exclusive pathways, as they maneuver away from the center of the business district and to outlying areas.

IMO it would be seem practically improbable that Metro Nashville could garner the prohibitively astronomical amount of resources required to fund concurrent but separate regional and urban transp. network developments, such as Star-like RR commuter-rail and strictly urban rapid transit.  Most likely it would be in the best interest, to start, for Metro Nashville to direct its emphasis primarily on an urban network which could be designed with extensible infrastructure to serve outlying remotes.  In turn this would provide an agreed-upon framework on which most if not all incumbent parties could focus their efforts on their own time frame.  In this way Metro could concentrate on developing and constructing a core transp..network for getting around town, while each outlying jurisdictions could elect to contract for expansion of service,   if they choose to buy in.  This is where LRT outshines RR-type commuter rail, for urban- and interurban rapid transit, because stops can be rather closely spaced, as for any RT (BRT or LRT) tends to be deep within a central district (even for heritage heavy-rail subway a elevated), and spaced far apart on the outer reaches, just as they are for Portland.  And LRT does not require a central terminal for it to be successful – just a sufficient number of cross points for routes to coincide.

In the meantime, Nashville could move forward and commence to prepare for its own needs, without direct impediment from other county commissions, which for whatever reasons could stall an entire segment of travel otherwise.  Construction and operating nearly always get re-apportioned and re-contracted, when an existing line gets built out across jurisdictional lines.  All this is notwithstanding the need for initial consorting and comprehensively shared planning.
-==-

 

Edited by rookzie
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nashville Mayor Megan Barry used her inauguration speech in September to tell Nashvillians, "I want to hear from you," on their ideas about the city.

The Entrepreneurs’ Organization Nashville chapter — composed of 155 Nashville business leaders, startup founders and other innovators — responded by conducting a survey last month of its members to identify ways to improve the city.

The group came up with 38 ideas in all for Nashville’s new mayor, which EO Nashville released in a new report submitted to Barry on Tuesday. Here are the the twelve that focused on transit solutions:

  • Flex-Shift Nashville: Initiate a public call to private employers to utilize remote workers and encourage city employees to work from home when appropriate. This could include “flex shifts” to reduce traffic during peak times.
  • Car-Less Day: Create a public awareness campaign centered on “Car-Less Day” or “Public Transit Day” to educate residents and commuters about mass transit options and change Nashville’s driving culture.
  • Traffic light technology: Improve traffic flow through technology and traffic light timers. Track changes, adjust regularly and have different timing for different times of day or around big events.
  • Smartphone apps: Develop smartphone apps to make transportation easier in Nashville.
  • Crowdsourced transportation: Integrate Lyft and Uber to augment Nashville’s mass transit system, including using their data for transportation and traffic flow planning.
  • Driverless cars: Study the use of driverless vehicles and allow electric cars that are self-driving.
  • Improve sidewalks: Add sidewalks to the many neighborhoods without them. Facilitating pedestrian access should be a pillar of our mass transit plan.
  • Construction traffic plan: Implement a strategic plan for construction crews to limit how much they block, tie up and redirect traffic around projects.
  • Bikes: Invest in making the city bicycle-friendly.
  • Mass transit: Implement a strategic mass transit system, such as Amtrak or light rail.
  • MTA drive incentives: Compensate MTA drivers and leadership on growing ridership, not just managing MTA buses and the status quo.
  • Drones: Pass regulations on drones that protect private property but also allow for transportation solutions and creative business opportunities. Nashville could be on the leading edge for business-friendly regulations that reduce traffic, create businesses, improve convenience and, in some cases, save lives.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I love the inclusion of drones and driverless technology.  Cities that fully embrace these technologies will likely be the first to benefit from them, and if we are friendly to them then Nashville could serve as a center for innovation.  Nashville is a prominent enough city to begin taking the lead on things like this.  We seemed to have done that in regard to ride sharing (friendly legislation, first airport to fully embrace), and Nashville has benefitted.  Uber/Lyft are now fully ingrained in people's minds and these companies are now locating jobs here.  Let's do the same for other emerging technologies.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Charge in ten minutes?! Holy cow! Tesla should take notes.

I've seen these rolling around on the Green route. Need to hop aboard one of these days to see how they are inside...

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Charge in ten minutes?! Holy cow! Tesla should take notes.

Tesla doesn't want to take a step back. 

the supercharger will get 170 miles in 30 minutes while these bus chargers will get 26 miles in 10 minutes.  5.6 miles/min for Tesla vs 2.6 miles/min for the bus.  

Of course, there's lots of other factors as well. I would be interested in knowing how many the kWh/mile of the bus. It's probably a fraction of the Model S or LEAF. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just what I always wanted ─ a rechargable coach.  They look like short buses on "roids", and their distinctive appearance makes them readily identifiable.  This "meat loaf" shape and body width might allow the MTA to resume running two-way service along 5th, as they had intended and had done for a short period during 2014.  Just a thought.

While it might seem petty, the original full-size diesel buses (Gillig®) are seen floating around on standard routes, such as Nº 19 Herman, and visually that remains a source of confusion to those who are not aware that not all "green" painted buses are Free Ride circulators.  Either the MTA needs to use them to supplement the new electrics (which they might), or they need to apply advertising skins and/or standard paint to match the rest of the fleet, once the electrics have been tested and become proven as reliable (again which they might).  IMO the concept of painting the DT Free Riders with that loud green rally scheme is to make them "stand out" and unique to that purpose.
-==-

Edited by rookzie
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've seen these rolling around on the Green route. Need to hop aboard one of these days to see how they are inside...

I think somewhere earlier in the thread I mentioned Chattanooga's electric shuttles. I haven't been on one, but when it gets warm outside they roll around with all the windows open. Doesn't bode well for passenger comfort.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very unscientific observation here, but traveling over the last month and driving through several of Nashville's peer cities, I have some items I would like to share.

As far as traffic being worse in Nashville than other places, I will have to say Nashville traffic is not nearly as bad as Charlotte, Raleigh, Denver, Tucson and Austin. I ran into traffic inbound in Raleigh and Charlotte during evening rush hour 20 to 25 miles out. Bumper to bumper. In Nashville, that just does not happen unless there is a major accident. Both cities seem to have numerous expressways around town in comparison to Nashville.

Austin is in gridlock during rush hour IMO. I took one wrong exit and it took me one hour to get turned around and back to my destination, only about 4 miles away. By 7 pm in Nashville, most of the traffic has settled down vs the others that were still very, very busy. There is train service in Raleigh and I am not sure how extensive it is, as well as rail in Charlotte and Austin. Nashville just has the one line and I consider the Star a joke om many levels.

For those that compare Nashville traffic to Atlanta, please get real. When Fox was running for mayor and made the comparison, he should have been called out. Atlanta is the 9th largest MSA where we are number 36. Those making that comparison need to do their homework.

 

Here is an article from USA today this year with the worst cities for traffic and we are not on among any of the listed cities.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/08/25/worst-traffic-washington-dc/32075461/

 

I guess what I am saying is Nashville's traffic is not as bad as we realize, but we do need to address the issues now and quickly before it does.

The good news here is the majority of construction of new large scale housing is near our core. If that continues, Nashville will need to work on a transportation system that addresses the needs in the core.

I do believe the issue in Raleigh is that they have many large office developments outside the core and traffic spreads out from each one of these cores. Another issue is there are a number of larger cities within an hour or so away that adds to the congestion. Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill, Greensboro, Winston Salem, to name a few.

 

Folks, please consider that this is my opinion based on my experience and observations.

 

 

 

 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I rarely am on the interstate during rush hour, but Friday I had to take one and had a few thoughts. I almost lost my mind sitting in traffic. It took me a tad over an hour to go 18 miles. But one thing I did notice during my time spend sitting on the interstate and ever other road was 

A) Could apps like Google Maps actually make overall traffic worse? Instead of people staying on the main roads built for heavy traffic people will try to avoid the red areas by taking back roads. These roads then back up quickly because they are not built for the heavy transit. I am guilty of this in many instances. I will almost do anything to avoid the backups, but then I find myself taking tons of back roads which have minimal lights/stop signs at intersections to efficiently deal with the congestion. Some of the roads I took Friday night would make ZERO sense to take unless you have the ability to look at an app that offers multiple routes. 

B) Are the HOV lanes pointless? I honestly do not think I saw one vehicle that had 2 people in them while driving in that lane. Is there any enforcement for this? I feel like there could be so many other better opportunities than this.  Wouldn't those lanes be good for only public transit usage, or if they could somehow have a way to enforce carpooling for that lane? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with your assessments, smeagolsfree/Ron.  Having been to all 50 states and 54 countries, I would have to say Nashville's traffic is pretty tame.  I have been to all of the cities you mentioned and feel that Nashville is in better shape than most as far as how thick rush hour is, and how relatively short the time-frames are where it is slower (about 7:30-8:30 AM and about 5:00-6:30 PM in most cases).

Most of these other cities do not have 3 intestates intersecting in their core.  This can be a blessing and curse. in that it gives the citizenry more free way options than many other cities have, but also has heavier pass-through.  Will be interesting to see if I-840 is ever completed all the way around the metro---could cut down on a fairly good percentage of semis that come through the center city all the time. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A) Could apps like Google Maps actually make overall traffic worse? Instead of people staying on the main roads built for heavy traffic people will try to avoid the red areas by taking back roads. These roads then back up quickly because they are not built for the heavy transit. I am guilty of this in many instances. I will almost do anything to avoid the backups, but then I find myself taking tons of back roads which have minimal lights/stop signs at intersections to efficiently deal with the congestion. Some of the roads I took Friday night would make ZERO sense to take unless you have the ability to look at an app that offers multiple routes. 

I see your point. However, modern GPS apps all have some type of detection systems built into them that utilize the sensors within your phone to aggregate traffic data. Fortunately, these apps realize very quickly when the back roads get congested (and even go so far as to reliably predict how this affects the travel time) and will adjust your route accordingly.

Do they cause the back roads to become more congested than these roads would be otherwise? I have little doubt. Do they encourage such congestion to a fault? I don't believe so.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's important that a city provide both the "into and around", before it's too late to start planning.  That's what Portland did as far back as the '70s, before it finally linked to PDX.  The point is that there always needs to be alternative-mode options for commuting and for local transit, no matter how large of the "large", the MSA encompasses.  Traffic never ever will diminish, and the purpose is to provide these alternatives, not to pull cars off the road, not to say that these are mutually exclusive.  Cars always will fill up all the roads, no matter how good a system is.  At least most of those cities you mentioned, Smeags, have begun a system, although some are far more advanced in expansion than the others of that group.  You can include Tidewater in that group as well.

-==-

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Portland is on the list of bad traffic cities, so I think the planning there has not worked very well, even with mass transit. I have said this before and will say it again. You penalize drivers for driving in congested areas by taking lanes away, toll roads, and restricted traffic flow after you get a mass transit system in place. You make people want to take mass transit because the alternative is hours of sitting in traffic. 

Its just a matter of time before toll roads become a reality here. They do pay for themselves.

 

I do do not have sympathy for the love affair with cars. Now I live in the burbs, however, if there were transit available, I would use it.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I rarely am on the interstate during rush hour, but Friday I had to take one and had a few thoughts. I almost lost my mind sitting in traffic. It took me a tad over an hour to go 18 miles. But one thing I did notice during my time spend sitting on the interstate and ever other road was 

A) Could apps like Google Maps actually make overall traffic worse? Instead of people staying on the main roads built for heavy traffic people will try to avoid the red areas by taking back roads. These roads then back up quickly because they are not built for the heavy transit. I am guilty of this in many instances. I will almost do anything to avoid the backups, but then I find myself taking tons of back roads which have minimal lights/stop signs at intersections to efficiently deal with the congestion. Some of the roads I took Friday night would make ZERO sense to take unless you have the ability to look at an app that offers multiple routes. 

B) Are the HOV lanes pointless? I honestly do not think I saw one vehicle that had 2 people in them while driving in that lane. Is there any enforcement for this? I feel like there could be so many other better opportunities than this.  Wouldn't those lanes be good for only public transit usage, or if they could somehow have a way to enforce carpooling for that lane? 

I heard last year that there were about 90 or 190 tickets given out to drivers in the HOV lanes. If police pulls over a car to give it a ticket, that would slow down traffic; thus enforcement = more traffic congestion. Another issue with enforcement is identifying hybrids/electric cars, which are also allowed in the HOV lanes.

The federal money used to widen the interstates required the HOV designation. Enforcement is not required

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with your assessments, smeagolsfree/Ron.  Having been to all 50 states and 54 countries, I would have to say Nashville's traffic is pretty tame.  I have been to all of the cities you mentioned and feel that Nashville is in better shape than most as far as how thick rush hour is, and how relatively short the time-frames are where it is slower (about 7:30-8:30 AM and about 5:00-6:30 PM in most cases).

Most of these other cities do not have 3 intestates intersecting in their core.  This can be a blessing and curse. in that it gives the citizenry more free way options than many other cities have, but also has heavier pass-through.  Will be interesting to see if I-840 is ever completed all the way around the metro---could cut down on a fairly good percentage of semis that come through the center city all the time. 

The northern half of 840 is permanently dead due to cost and environmental concerns. The decision was made, a few years ago, that it would be much cheaper to make extensive upgrades to SR 109 from I-40 through Gallatin to Portland. That is why the new Cumberland river bridge was built

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.