The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[smeagolsfree]

I think in time the transit systems will connect. We are in the very start of the process. The cities, right or wrong, that surround Nashville have to take care of their priorities now.

[madisonman]

On 11/14/2017 at 9:23 PM, titanhog said:

Let me ask you guys this:  Since I truly am a novice when it comes to mass-transit and really don't know what I'm talking about half the time...if money were no issue, what is the one single mode of mass-transit that would make the biggest impact upon Nashville if we could implement it?

 I think we should come up wih an idea that will not take as long to build and deals wiht future technologies.  I think we should stick to upgraded busses.  More routes and dedicated bus lanes.  Slicker non looking busses.  I think with changing technologies in transportation we should stay away from expensive  dated rail systems and not go underground.  If we had dedicated lanes on main transit corridors with slick designed vehicles.  In future we could have smaller transit vehicles that could also use dedicated lanes.(in future with self driving you could have many vehicles using the dedicated transit lanes since they could all be located and corrdinated by one system.) one day the didicated lanes might be hover crafts or what ever the future brings.  The trick is to create lots of easements in the transit corridors for transportation.  Nashville talks about sidewalks but we should be talking about creating transportation easements on certain roads.(could even do property  zoning incentives or reductions to property taxes to help create the transportation easements. - This concepts cost money cut I think we should spent the money on aquiring the land not on the technology that will change.  Example instead of the underground tunnel from downtown bus station to MCC for 1 Billion we close 4th? for busses only and pedestrians.  (Use  good technology to control the lights so transit busses do not have to stop-if we can dig a tunnel we can time lights)

Edited December 2, 2017 by madisonman

[BnaBreaker]

1 hour ago, madisonman said:

 I think we should come up wih an idea that will not take as long to build and deals wiht future technologies.  I think we should stick to upgraded busses.  More routes and dedicated bus lanes.  Slicker non looking busses.  I think with changing technologies in transportation we should stay away from expensive  dated rail systems and not go underground.  If we had dedicated lanes on main transit corridors with slick designed vehicles.  In future we could have smaller transit vehicles that could also use dedicated lanes.(in future with self driving you could have many vehicles using the dedicated transit lanes since they could all be located and corrdinated by one system.) one day the didicated lanes might be hover crafts or what ever the future brings.  The trick is to create lots of easements in the transit corridors for transportation.  Nashville talks about sidewalks but we should be talking about creating transportation easements on certain roads.(could even do property  zoning incentives or reductions to property taxes to help create the transportation easements. - This concepts cost money cut I think we should spent the money on aquiring the land not on the technology that will change.  Example instead of the underground tunnel from downtown bus station to MCC for 1 Billion we close 4th? for busses only and pedestrians.  (Use  good technology to control the lights so transit busses do not have to stop-if we can dig a tunnel we can time lights)

Thank you for your thoughtful post.  I appreciate your 'outside the box grounded in practicality' point of view.  You're absolutely correct that a non rail approach would be cheaper overall and likely just as effective too for a city of Nashville's size... in an ideal world.  In reality, unfortunately, Nashville tried almost exactly what you're describing with the AMP bus rapid transit system, and it was soundly rejected for a variety of (let's be honest, mostly ridiculous) reasons. 

Personally, I like buses, and ride them somewhat frequently here in Chicago.  But,  for better or worse, they do tend to carry a sort of negative stigma with them, especially in smaller sunbelt cities like Nashville that have only had bus based transit for as long as most  of it's residents have been alive.  This is due mainly to buses being seen as something just for low income people, which I suppose is a stereotype that probably exists because it is mostly accurate.  But that doesn't mean it has to be that way, of course, and is only so due primarily to the poor funding many bus transit systems receive.   So with a bus system that was fully funded that everyone was enthusiastically behind, the potential is certainly there. 

The reality still exists, however, that people, generally, would rather use rail than buses.  So, as a result, I do think the mixed approach we are taking is probably for the best in the long run due not only to what I just discussed, but also to the fact that as Nashville further densifies and increases in size, dedicated rail will become an increasingly ideal option.  This is mainly due to trains being faster, able to carry more people, and free of the restraints of the road, whether that be traffic signals or congestion.  As I mentioned above, I take the bus on occasion here in Chicago, but I take the train FAR more often...as in practically every day... as in the station attendant at the California Blue Line stop knows my name.  haha... and I do that because it is simply a better way to get around in a dense urban city.  

Also, on a side note, I've heard the argument before that rail is "dated technology" and I must say I don't really understand the logic there.   I mean, tell Japan that rail is a dated technology.  Tell that to Western Europe.  Tell that to Shanghai and it's Maglev trains, which coincidentally I have ridden and find them to be an absolute marvel.  Strictly in terms of chronology passenger rail is only a half a century or so older than the automobile as a technology, and actually a far more recent innovation if one logically considers the automobile to simply be an update to the horse and buggy. 

Edited December 3, 2017 by BnaBreaker

[titanhog]

I don't think buses work that great because for the most part, they don't have dedicated lanes...so they are subject to traffic as well as the rest of us.  Still wish we were far enough along that hover crafts were the mode of transport.

[fishsticks176]

http://mashable.com/2013/07/03/urban-gondolas/#IjeihkCXguqA

https://www.curbed.com/2017/9/21/16340394/urban-gondolas-cable-cars-cities

 

If we're thinking outside the box, I really would love to see some sort of gondola in Nashville. It's substantially less expensive, would be another branding element for the city, and it would generate huge amounts of tourist revenue. I know I'd ride it just for the views.

Edited December 3, 2017 by fishsticks176

[rookzie]

21 hours ago, fishsticks176 said:

http://mashable.com/2013/07/03/urban-gondolas/#IjeihkCXguqA

https://www.curbed.com/2017/9/21/16340394/urban-gondolas-cable-cars-cities

 

If we're thinking outside the box, I really would love to see some sort of gondola in Nashville. It's substantially less expensive, would be another branding element for the city, and it would generate huge amounts of tourist revenue. I know I'd ride it just for the views.

In the US, only the Portland [OR] Aerial Tram and the Roosevelt Island [NYC] Tramway are somewhat but not officially integrated into an urban transit system, although by design they are rather fixed and limited in application and construction, both "politically" and mechanically.  They do seem to serve a specific niche of the commuters within their respective districts.

Portland's Aerial Tram (a.k.a. "OHSU" Tram -  Oregon Health & Science University) descending into the South Waterfront District

Edited December 4, 2017 by rookzie

[rookzie]

On 12/2/2017 at 6:30 PM, BnaBreaker said:

Thank you for your thoughtful post.  I appreciate your 'outside the box grounded in practicality' point of view.  You're absolutely correct that a non rail approach would be cheaper overall and likely just as effective too for a city of Nashville's size... in an ideal world.  In reality, unfortunately, Nashville tried almost exactly what you're describing with the AMP bus rapid transit system, and it was soundly rejected for a variety of (let's be honest, mostly ridiculous) reasons. 

Personally, I like buses, and ride them somewhat frequently here in Chicago.  But,  for better or worse, they do tend to carry a sort of negative stigma with them, especially in smaller sunbelt cities like Nashville that have only had bus based transit for as long as most  of it's residents have been alive.  This is due mainly to buses being seen as something just for low income people, which I suppose is a stereotype that probably exists because it is mostly accurate.  But that doesn't mean it has to be that way, of course, and is only so due primarily to the poor funding many bus transit systems receive.   So with a bus system that was fully funded that everyone was enthusiastically behind, the potential is certainly there. 

The reality still exists, however, that people, generally, would rather use rail than buses.  So, as a result, I do think the mixed approach we are taking is probably for the best in the long run due not only to what I just discussed, but also to the fact that as Nashville further densifies and increases in size, dedicated rail will become an increasingly ideal option.  This is mainly due to trains being faster, able to carry more people, and free of the restraints of the road, whether that be traffic signals or congestion.  As I mentioned above, I take the bus on occasion here in Chicago, but I take the train FAR more often...as in practically every day... as in the station attendant at the California Blue Line stop knows my name.  haha... and I do that because it is simply a better way to get around in a dense urban city.  

Also, on a side note, I've heard the argument before that rail is "dated technology" and I must say I don't really understand the logic there.   I mean, tell Japan that rail is a dated technology.  Tell that to Western Europe.  Tell that to Shanghai and it's Maglev trains, which coincidentally I have ridden and find them to be an absolute marvel.  Strictly in terms of chronology passenger rail is only a half a century or so older than the automobile as a technology, and actually a far more recent innovation if one logically considers the automobile to simply be an update to the horse and buggy. 

I could be "attracted" to buses, if 1) they were overhead powered electric trolley-buses, and 2) more of the trunk lines were operated within dedicated lanes even shared with light-rail guideways.   I am not aware of any such set-up within North America's remaining trolleybus sub-systems, with five within the U.S. itself.

Contemporary New Flyer Xcelsior Trolley-buses ("trolley-coach", or "trackless trolley") are in extensive use on Vancouver BC-CAN Translink and on Seattle King County Metro.  Similar in general appearance, New Flyer Hybrid diesels (with left and right exit doors) were delivered to Nashville's MTA during the Dean administration for the stillborn East-West Connector, and now simply are deployed for general use.  It would have been more interesting had Cleveland  elected to use trolley-buses on its Health Line BRT, which has dedicated lanes on Euclid Ave.

Trolley-buses perform much better than other power-mode buses on steep grades, such as on the hills of San Francisco, Seattle, and Vancouver.  They also can curb and re-enter traffic without "de-wiring", as trolley poles allow considerable latitude for deviating from a precisely fixed path, unlike with rail-guided systems.  Route diverging and merging (switching) also is of no issue for such set-ups, and wires can be added removed for permanent or temporary rerouting as needed (a common practice in those districts which operate them).

Translink (Vancouver)

 

King County Metro (Seattle)

 

An SFMuni (SFMTA - San Francisco) shown re-entering traffic after having departed from curbside.

 

This scene is not exactly pretty at Broadway and Pine Streets, Seattle ─ streetcar and trolley-bus overhead wires with route switches and crossings.

[Pdt2f]

^I like the idea, I just balk at the thought of Nashville having even more overhead wires than we already do. But I suppose I could live with it if copious amounts of wires were a sign of a great public transit system, instead of an outdated electrical infrastructure system. 

[markhollin]

When I was a kid in Pittsburgh, the streetcars all had the overhead wires.  Distinctly remember the sparks that would fly when they passed through connections.  All of them were removed back in the 60s.  

[CenterHill]

Thanks, Rookzie.    I always appreciate your insights on transit matters, so help me, as a casual observer, appreciate what advantages the overhead line track-less trolleys you mention have over, say, all electric buses like MTA's Music City Circuit.      Range, I expect is one big issue.     The lithium ion MTA buses can go 26 miles per charge.    The "fast fill" charging stations like at Riverfront Park and Bicentennial Mall can deliver a full charge in 10 minutes, but still that's 10 minutes of passengers sitting there waiting for a charge.       You mention steep terrain as an advantage for the overhead electric systems, which I expect would limit the range of a fully loaded EV bus on hilly routes.      

All things being equal, I think I would prefer a "wireless" EV fleet to the substantial installation expense and visual clutter of an overhead line system.  

[smeagolsfree]

Missing you at the meets Rookzie! Always enjoy it more when you are there.

[markhollin]

Nashville comes in at #17 in longest work commute time of major cities in the U.S., with an average of 24.3 minutes. It has only grown by 1.7 minutes since 2011.  

Among peer cities, we are about average (Charlotte #15 at 25.1 minutes; Jacksonville #18 at 24.2 minutes; Austin #20 at 23.8 minutes; Indianapolis #22 at 23 minutes; Memphis #24 at 21.7 minutes; and Columbus #25 at 21.5 minutes).  NYC is #1 at with an average of 40.3 minutes.

Full list of 25 in slideshow here:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2017/12/07/your-commute-has-increased-nashville-but-it-could.html

[nashvillwill]

5 hours ago, markhollin said:

Nashville comes in at #17 in longest work commute time of major cities in the U.S., with an average of 24.3 minutes. It has only grown by 1.7 minutes since 2011.  

Among peer cities, we are about average (Charlotte #15 at 25.1 minutes; Jacksonville #18 at 24.2 minutes; Austin #20 at 23.8 minutes; Indianapolis #22 at 23 minutes; Memphis #24 at 21.7 minutes; and Columbus #25 at 21.5 minutes).  NYC is #1 at with an average of 40.3 minutes.

Full list of 25 in slideshow here:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2017/12/07/your-commute-has-increased-nashville-but-it-could.html

Oh man, I’ve had a 1.5 hour commute before. That was for the birds. I’m sure others have had  worse. I don’t miss those days. 

I had a coworker in San Jose who commuted from Sacramento every day. That’s about like commuting to Nashville from Chattanooga, in rush hour traffic  

I now have the shortest commute I’ve ever had in my life. About 3/4 of a mile. The sad irony is that my job now is to get in a truck and drive all day. I only go to the office about once or twice a week. 

Oh those lucky few who get to live above or next door to a storefront they own. 

 

[titanhog]

1 hour ago, nashvillwill said:

Oh man, I’ve had a 1.5 hour commute before. That was for the birds. I’m sure others have had  worse. I don’t miss those days. 

I had a coworker in San Jose who commuted from Sacramento every day. That’s about like commuting to Nashville from Chattanooga, in rush hour traffic  

I now have the shortest commute I’ve ever had in my life. About 3/4 of a mile. The sad irony is that my job now is to get in a truck and drive all day. I only go to the office about once or twice a week. 

Oh those lucky few who get to live above or next door to a storefront they own. 

 

It would be nice to have a little store and live above the store...like they did in the "old days."

[markhollin]

General Motors Co. expects to carry passengers and deliver goods with self-driving vehicles in big cities sometime in 2019, telling investors it's moving quickly and plans to be ahead of other automakers and tech companies.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/GM-to-launch-autonomous-cars-in-big-cities-12395169.php?platform=hootsuite

[AronG]

On 12/7/2017 at 11:00 PM, titanhog said:

It would be nice to have a little store and live above the store...like they did in the "old days."

First step would be to get our overly restrictive residential zoning codes loosened:

http://www.tennessean.com/story/money/2017/12/04/lawsuit-challenge-nashville-home-business-ban-including-recording-studios/918866001/

One of the biggest city planning blunders that destroyed neighborhoods over the last 60 years (with no end in sight) was the bizarre misguided effort to force residential and commercial construction into rigidly defined areas, ruining the the interspersed nature of real neighborhoods.

[markhollin]

Mayor Megan Barry on Monday formally filed long-awaited legislation that would trigger a public referendum in Nashville on a $5.4 billion transit plan, setting up two months of Metro Council debate on whether to add the controversial measure to the May ballot.

With 24 council co-sponsors signing on to the transit ordinance, Barry’s administration is beginning with sizable support in the council, having already netted a majority needed for its approval.

Barry, whose first term in office could largely be defined by the fate of her transit push, joined Vice Mayor David Briley and multiple council members at a news conference at the mayor’s office to announce the bill's filing. 

http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2017/12/11/mayor-barry-transit-referendum-transit-plan-nashville/940242001/

[markhollin]

Music City Central station will soon see interior renovations costing just north of $2 million, as it celebrates it's 10th anniversary next year.

Improvements will include new restrooms, a customer care center, surfacing of travel lanes, added crosswalks, improved lighting, bus arrival displays, and public art.

https://www.nashvillepost.com/business/transportation/article/20985411/mta-plans-2m-in-upgrades-at-music-city-central
 

[markhollin]

Less than 24 hours after unveiling the ordinance that will place her plan on the ballot, Barry announced that her plan is projected to produce $3.1 billion in local labor income and create 3,850 jobs during each year of construction. That's according to an analysis by Nashville-based environmental consulting firm Wilmot Inc.

The analysis also estimated the plan's operations and maintenance requirements will create an additional $548 million in economic impact during the construction phase.

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2017/12/12/mayor-barry-touts-estimated-3-1b-economic-impact.html

[rookzie]

On 12/4/2017 at 9:10 AM, CenterHill said:

Thanks, Rookzie.    I always appreciate your insights on transit matters, so help me, as a casual observer, appreciate what advantages the overhead line track-less trolleys you mention have over, say, all electric buses like MTA's Music City Circuit.      Range, I expect is one big issue.     The lithium ion MTA buses can go 26 miles per charge.    The "fast fill" charging stations like at Riverfront Park and Bicentennial Mall can deliver a full charge in 10 minutes, but still that's 10 minutes of passengers sitting there waiting for a charge.       You mention steep terrain as an advantage for the overhead electric systems, which I expect would limit the range of a fully loaded EV bus on hilly routes.      

All things being equal, I think I would prefer a "wireless" EV fleet to the substantial installation expense and visual clutter of an overhead line system.  

 

On 12/4/2017 at 2:36 PM, smeagolsfree said:

Missing you at the meets Rookzie! Always enjoy it more when you are there.

 

I hadn't read the posts until lately, and then I had to assimilate thoughts before replying on this mostly academic subject.

To date, with the number of U.S. deployed trolley-bus systems having steadily diminished spanning from the 1930s and into the early ‘70s – Chicago’s having been the latest victim of phase-out, only five trolley-bus systems remain, excluding those in Canada.  Historically, no new trolley-bus system has been built within the U.S. except to replace or to extend then-current streetcar routes, in districts such as Boston, Atlanta, and Memphis (service of which ended in 1960), so trending tends to favor support of maintaining existing trolley-bus infrastructures, rather than to develop ground-up installations.

Battery technology has made huge strides in recent years and costs have dropped, making it financially feasible to build Battery-Electric Buses (BEB's), and Nashville and Louisville are two of about nine systems which have purchased Proterra’s zero-emissions BEB, which fast-charges at stations located along bus routes and needs to be recharged every 30 to 50 miles.  Proterra buses cost $600,000 to $800,000, not including the $350,000 fast-charge station, and they are mostly used on downtown circulator routes, such as the MTA Route Nº61 “Gulch-Bicentennial” and the Nº60 “Riverfront-Bicentennial”, recently extended to TSU main campus (at John Merritt Blvd.) and thereby replacing the Jefferson Street portion of MTA Nº29.

Interestingly, the use of trolley-buses also makes available federal money that a transit system wouldn’t otherwise get, in part, since they are considered “fixed guideway” systems, and funding and targeting of transit systems with rail or trolley lines, can be used for all transit operations, not just the trolleys, as long as these trolley system remain integral within a network.  Newer-technology, high-capacity trolleys are more than twice as expensive as counterpart conventional low-emission diesel buses and about 40 percent more costly than hybrid diesel/electric buses, but Federal funds often would cover up to 80 percent of the purchase price, a value-added perk generally not typically awarded for non-trolley-bus, non-streetcar, or non-light-rail purposes.

Thing is, an agency is far more apt to opt for a locally preferred alternative in the form of a streetcar as a circulator or for light-rail as mixed urban-suburban use, as far as external overhead-electric power is concerned.  Trolley-buses are deployed primarily as mid-range or core circulators, and their primary advantages are unlimited external power to accommodate propulsion and climate-control demands, compared to BEB’s; their ability to be easily be rerouted either permanently or temporarily, compared to streetcars; their ability to pull into and out of traffic and to move around some types of obstacles; and their life-span of often 18 years between replacement, compared to other rubber-tired vehicles, with conventionally powered buses often having a usable life-span of12 years.

As I perhaps had indicated or implied in an earlier post, it is unlikely that Nashville would opt for a trolley-bus segment within its network, although in some isolated cases limited use of the trolley-bus could be rationalized and at least subjectively justified and tenable, although it likely would be highly improbable.  With respect to that matter, I couldn’t anticipate any North American city to plan a start-up trolley-bus system or segment in any case.  But in fantasy dreaming, if a city considers building a fully or even primarily dedicated busway for Bus Rapid Transit in its optimal form, then the permanence of that dedicated busway would go hand-in-hand with the permanence and performance from the use of overhead wires and trolley buses, which currently remain much more proven workhorses for longer commute distances than are BEB’s, which as yet are not deployable to meet the heavy-duty use that longer urban-core-to-edge-of-town routes often demand.  Also, state-of-the-art trolley buses now are dual-mode and use batteries or small diesel gen-sets (engine-driven generator units) to allow the coaches to move short distances from wire to wire to circumvent interruptions, as in the case of a disabled vehicle ahead, or ongoing building construction.

 

Edited December 14, 2017 by rookzie

[markhollin]

Please mark your calendars for Saturday, Jan. 6th, 10 AM to noon, when our Nashville Urban Planet Meet-Up will host Mary Beth Ikard, the Manager of the Mayor's Office for Transportation and Sustainability as our guest. She will be there to present further details about the Mass Transit plan, and field questions on everything from the tunnel to funding.  As always, we will meet at La Luna Taqueria at 300 James Robertson Parkway (at the NW corner of JRP and 3rd Ave. North).  Plenty of free parking in the rear. 

[markhollin]

Projected riderships for the Mass Transit Plan in the year 2040:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2017/12/13/heres-how-many-people-mayor-barry-thinks-will-ride.html

 

[Hey_Hey]

20 hours ago, rookzie said:

Battery technology has made huge strides in recent years and costs have dropped, making it financially feasible to build Battery-Electric Buses (BEB's), and Nashville and Louisville are two of about nine systems which have purchased Proterra’s zero-emissions BEB, which fast-charges at stations located along bus routes and needs to be recharged every 30 to 50 miles.  Proterra buses cost $600,000 to $800,000, not including the $350,000 fast-charge station, and they are mostly used on downtown circulator routes, such as the MTA Route Nº61 “Gulch-Bicentennial” and the Nº60 “Riverfront-Bicentennial”, recently extended to TSU main campus (at John Merritt Blvd.) and thereby replacing the Jefferson Street portion of MTA Nº29.

The Proterra EcoRide buses that Nashville has are already obsolete.  The EcoRides that MTA has have somewhere around a 60kWh battery pack (I can't find the exact size) and cost a reported $950,000.  The current Proterra buses cost somewhere around $600-800,000 a piece and carry battery packs between 79 and 660 kWh for a total range of 49-350 miles.  Those costs are still incredible considering what Tesla just unveiled.  Tesla has some incredible efficiencies of scale and just unveiled a semi truck that has a 1000kWh battery and can travel up to 500 miles while pulling 80,000 lbs that costs $200,000.  They also have a 300 mile version that costs $150,000.  I know buses will cost more than a semi, but they shouldn't cost 4-6x what a semi truck costs, especially given that the Tesla has a significantly larger battery pack.  Tesla also unveiled tech that will enable the trucks to be plugged in and charged around 800 miles per hour (requiring somewhere around 1.5MW of power.  Pretty impressive and revolutionary for transit agencies. Maybe Tesla could enter this market in the future.   

[PruneTracy]

24 minutes ago, markhollin said:

Projected riderships for the Mass Transit Plan in the year 2040:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2017/12/13/heres-how-many-people-mayor-barry-thinks-will-ride.html

That's a lot of money to spend to move about the same number of people as a fully-utilized travel lane, at $3 to $5 per rider in O&M costs alone.

[markhollin]

In an interview with the Nashville Business Journal following the official ribbon cutting of Bridgestone's new SoBro headquarters, Knapp was skeptical of the potential impact of driverless cars.

“This is not a light switch. It’s not like in three years, every vehicle in the U.S. fleet is going to be an autonomous vehicle. This is going to play out over decades, without question," Knapp said. "We’ve watched very carefully what Mayor Barry has brought [forth in a transit plan]. We like a lot of what we see. We actually think it’s probably an important step for Nashville. Our teammates have got to believe they can get to this building without a ridiculously long commute. I’m not sure autonomous vehicles are going to solve that.

"It will play out over a long period of time. Remember, the newest vehicles on the road today started development about five years ago. It’s going to take a long time to teach that tipping point where we’re in this ‘autonomous mecca.’”

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2017/12/15/will-autonomous-vehicles-change-the-transit-game.html