The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[NashvilleObserver]

I drive around Davidson County a lot for work and I am amazed at the  number of "Vote NO on Transit" signs I see. I really just don't understand the mentality of these people who DON'T want mass transit for Nashville. 

It's worth noting that I really only see these signs in Green Hills, Forest Hills, 12th South, and nice neighborhoods along West End..... 

[PaulChinetti]

I emailed them again and tweeted at them. Maybe someone can get a response!

@NashvilleObserver

I was reading through a reddit thread last night and one person straight up said, I won't be able to use this personally, so I am voting no.

Boggles the mind.

I also believe the pro transit folks have been really bad at showing the benefits to business,  of cusomters being able to more easily access their business. It doesn't matter if everyone loves your business if they can't get there because they are sitting in traffic, what does it matter!

Same goes for one way streets, study after study has shown, make a street 2-ways and it's easier and more friendly for everyone.

Edited March 30, 2018 by PaulChinetti
because my mind is everywhere this morning

[WebberThomas4]

37 minutes ago, NashvilleObserver said:

I drive around Davidson County a lot for work and I am amazed at the  number of "Vote NO on Transit" signs I see. I really just don't understand the mentality of these people who DON'T want mass transit for Nashville. 

It's worth noting that I really only see these signs in Green Hills, Forest Hills, 12th South, and nice neighborhoods along West End..... 

I’d say 90% of the signs that I see in East Nashville are pro-transit, as expected. I drove down Jefferson yesterday and was surprised to see large “Vote No” signs on public right-of-ways and against the fences lining the interstate.  

I’m not surprised that you see the signs along West End. My old landlord owns one of the old mansions on West End and basically erected an anti-AMP billboard in her front yard a few years ago. I always found it funny because she and her husband only spend about 2 weeks a year in Nashville and the home sits empty the rest of the year. 

Edited March 30, 2018 by WebberThomas4

[Flatrock]

Had a dinner party at my place last night. My date lives in Green Hills. Two other couples live in Forest Hills. All were against the current mass transit plan. I asked why. The responses were: "I don't want a subway system for Nashville", "I don't want Hillsboro Rd. and West End torn up for years while building the rail lines", "I don't want my property taxes to go up", "I want a plan, just not this one", etc, etc etc

Guys, this is the kind of misinformed, misunderstood crap that is prevalent in our town. These friends of mine are sharp, business savvy, typically well-read people....who, in the case of this plan, had never read it, never heard/saw a clearly presented summary of the plan..and who based their entire view of the plan on heresay and gossip. Needless to say, I set them straight. This is our current reality.

Until our city transit people figure out a way to educate a bunch of people very quickly, I'm not optimistic. As an aside, we had Nashville Transit representatives canvassing our neighborhood last week, knocking on doors, answering questions and asking for support. They asked me if I wanted a Pro Transit sign in my yard. I said "hell yeah!". It's been 7 days. No sign. I'm not impressed with their efforts to get this thing across the finish line.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Flatrock

[Pdt2f]

If this plan doesn’t pass I think it’ll be because the pro transit advocacy groups dropped the ball at the 5 yard line. Like many of you have mentioned, there’s been a lack of mass education and the stuff like signage has been severely lacking. 

Ive seen quite a few anti transit signs in poorer neighborhoods, even those that would see immediate impacts from the plan. They view the plan as designed to benefit the rich and gentrify their neighborhoods. They have the mentality that if it passes they’ll be priced out and be exactly where they are now in 10 years, except further out. 

Hopefully the transit for Nashville groups are planning an April campaigning blitz. 

[ruraljuror]

51 minutes ago, Pdt2f said:

If this plan doesn’t pass I think it’ll be because the pro transit advocacy groups dropped the ball at the 5 yard line. Like many of you have mentioned, there’s been a lack of mass education and the stuff like signage has been severely lacking. 

Ive seen quite a few anti transit signs in poorer neighborhoods, even those that would see immediate impacts from the plan. They view the plan as designed to benefit the rich and gentrify their neighborhoods. They have the mentality that if it passes they’ll be priced out and be exactly where they are now in 10 years, except further out. 

Hopefully the transit for Nashville groups are planning an April campaigning blitz. 

 

We, the citizens of Nashville are the ones who are failing to properly educate ourselves and our fellow citizens about the benefits of the transit plan.  Who do we think is going to fund this massive pro-transit educational campaign?  If the city government was trying to keep up with the deep pockets of the anti-transit coalition in terms of public relations expenditures, it would be a misuse of government funds scandal in its own right that could potentially derail the project.   I've seen this transit plan summarized several times because I read the local news and I participate in a internet forum that discusses urban planning issues like mass transportation, but the money just isn't there to fund the kind of pro-transit marketing push that I think some here were expecting. 

And even if we had equal footing on a financial front, it's a lot easier to run a oppositional misinformation campaign than it is to promote a specific plan of action.  On any given day, NoTax4Tracks will choose a different tactic or a different demographic to target and just see what sticks.  Here are some of their email subject lines over the last couple months:

1. Vote No and protect Senior Citizens--as though no senior citizens currently depend on mass transit and would benefit from improved service.

2. Not one penny goes to highways, bridges roads--facepalm.  Let's make a deal, how about we set aside a portion of the transit funding to pay for highways and then we'll set aside an equal portion of the highway funding to go to the transit plan?

3. THEY get the rail, WE get the bill--gross.

4. MORE than $9 BILLION--as I recall, one of the main complaints against the much less expensive Amp plan was that busses were 'cheap' and that more expensive light rail was worth it to attract ridership.  Also, I have little doubt that the same email subject would have read 'MORE than $4 BILLION' if we'd started with a plan at half the price.  Sticker shock as a scare tactic and nothing more.

5. Will they tell the truth to Nashville?--they're clearly playing to their audience here.

6. The plan will create more congestion, not less--if you think the body of the email contained any evidence to support this conclusion, you'd be wrong.

7. Think the cost are high now, Just wait!--this is actually a fair point, albeit one-sided.  Think the costs of doing nothing are high now, Just wait!

8. Horrible for those on fixed incomes--hey Seniors, we're talking to you again.  Vote no!

 

 

Edited March 30, 2018 by ruraljuror

[jmtunafish]

I'm sure a lot of the anti-transit people are against it because of the cost.  But I wonder how many of those who currently have two cars realize that they'll probably be able to get rid of one of their cars with a fully-functioning transit network.  I sometimes fantasize about the thousands of dollars a year I'd save if I didn't have a car.

[WebberThomas4]

Here’s a great example of  the anti-transit crowd spreading bad information on the Tennessean Facebook page. 

[nashwatcher]

I think it's important for all of us to inform as many people as possible over the next month about the benefits of a mass transit system for the future health and growth of our city (if you feel this way). It will integrate with new technologies and allow us to continue to grow. The cost burden is being shouldered a great deal by tourists which is nice as well. Who knows how close this referendum will be, but I believe it's incredibly important for the future of Nashville that we move forward with mass transit. Let people know.

[Bos2Nash]

40 minutes ago, jmtunafish said:

I'm sure a lot of the anti-transit people are against it because of the cost.  But I wonder how many of those who currently have two cars realize that they'll probably be able to get rid of one of their cars with a fully-functioning transit network.  I sometimes fantasize about the thousands of dollars a year I'd save if I didn't have a car.

This is actually a really great point. As a designer, we are backed into a corner of providing some pretty insane parking requirements for sites. To give an example, we were toying with some designs for a developer that would place 5 to 8 units on a half acre parcel. Zoning requires us to provide 13 to 20 (!!!!) parking spots. 20 being for the 8 units. Seriously?!?!? Because of the availability of transit, bike share, zipcar, and uber/lyft (i don't like using them as an example), Boston recently had a 157-unit condo development with ZERO parking! Without parking these units still sold for nauseating amounts of money. Transit improves so many things for the city

Edited March 30, 2018 by Bos2Nash

[volsfanwill]

4 hours ago, WebberThomas4 said:

Here’s a great example of  the anti-transit crowd spreading bad information on the Tennessean Facebook page. 

I got into it with mr Bloom on facebook. I dont know if it was that specific thread or another one.  but I ripped apart his comments point by point.  he called me a liar,  I asked him if he understood what a tunnel was.   things like that.

yesterday, a high school friend of mine,  who now lives in murfreesboro  and works in Williamson County  (i know for a fact that he uses 840 and comes no where near davidson county)  posted a long explanation about how this plan is bad for davidson county, it doesnt help him so we should vote against it,  why dont they wieden the interstates , why dont they expand the music city star to franklin and murfreesboro etc.  well, i kindly explained the reasons to him, he thanked me for the info and moved on.

but one of his friends decided to go at it with me all day.  he kept making claims that contradicted each other.  example.     "i dont want the government taking more of my money"  but then when i asked how would the interstates be widened  his answer was imminent domain.   he said the tunnel was dumb and didnt help traffic.  i explained it was only downtown to save cost and to keep from having to close 5th.  he then said the tunnel should go all the way to the county line even though it already costs too much.   I pointed out that the rails wont take up space that is not already roadway, (i realize that stations and the maintenance facility will)  he said yes it would so its no different than widening interstates.    I pointed out induced demand and diminishing returns for highways.  that went nowhere.   he acutally said we should build brand new highways.  i suggested he read about I-40 in memphis as an example of communities fighting this since the 70s.        i got nowhere.   but he did admit that "the population has doubled since I (he) moved here.

[Tennessine]

Thanks to all keeping those of us Nashvillians who are out of town up to date. Based on what I've been reading above, most of those running with the Against crowd are resorting to slogans and backlash when they are called out for saying things that simply aren't true. This is an extremely frustrating topic to debate, possibly because many of those on the other side of the fence are refusing to debate to begin with. It's the "Oh, if you love Nashville then you'll vote against this plan" phrases that drive me crazy. That's the kind of nonsense that will sway undecided Davidson Co. voters to vote Against on May 1st.

[grilled_cheese]

"lives in Murfreesboro, works in WillCo"  Ugh, more outside interference.....  I've said it before and I will say it again, we need to make their lives as difficult as they are making ours. 

I wish we could go ahead and vote on this.  My nextdoor group has devolved into ALL CAPS RESPONSES and 'libtard' conspiracy theories.

It's easier to verbalize as an anti person because all you have to say is "MORE TAXES" whereas the pro response is a much harder to boil down to two word responses.

[Tennessine]

35 minutes ago, grilled_cheese said:

"lives in Murfreesboro, works in WillCo"  Ugh, more outside interference.....  I've said it before and I will say it again, we need to make their lives as difficult as they are making ours. 

I wish we could go ahead and vote on this.  My nextdoor group has devolved into ALL CAPS RESPONSES and 'libtard' conspiracy theories.

It's easier to verbalize as an anti person because all you have to say is "MORE TAXES" whereas the pro response is a much harder to boil down to two word responses.

Exactly. The rhetoric becomes dumbed down instantaneously. Phrases and slogans are all it takes. They make it sound like Armageddon will strike Nashville if you vote for the plan. 

Edited March 30, 2018 by nativetenn

[volsfanwill]

every time I hear or see the word "boondogle" my head nearly explodes

also, I just had a half hour text debate with a friend who kept going back to widening or adding to the interstates.

would it be possible in the next 30 days to get TDOT to make a statement about this?

[jmtunafish]

25 minutes ago, volsfanwill said:

every time I hear or see the word "boondogle" my head nearly explodes

also, I just had a half hour text debate with a friend who kept going back to widening or adding to the interstates.

would it be possible in the next 30 days to get TDOT to make a statement about this?

Seriously.  I wish TDOT would come out and say just how many billions it would take to widen the interstates.  It is funny to me that some of the people who are against this mass transit plan because it would cost a lot and would rip up roadways during construction are blind to just how much money it would cost and how much disruptive road construction would be needed to widen the interstates.  Plus, there's the time factor.  Many who are against the mass transit plan are against it because it will take years before it's built out.  Do they have any idea just how long it takes to widen a freeway, especially through the city?

Edited March 31, 2018 by jmtunafish

[Tennessine]

23 minutes ago, jmtunafish said:

Seriously.  I wish TDOT would come out and say just how many billions it would take to widen the interstates.  It is funny to me that some of the people who are against this mass transit plan because it would cost a lot and would rip up roadways during construction are blind to just how much money it would cost and how much disruptive road construction would be needed to widen the interstates.  Plus, there's the time factor.  Many who are against the mass transit plan are against it because it will take years before it's built out.  Do they have any idea just how long it takes to widen a freeway, especially through the city?

It took years to widen I-65 from Cool Springs through Peytonsville Rd. in Williamson County, and that was 5 miles of road work. If that was a royal PITA in an exurban area, I can't fathom how difficult it would be to try to widen I-65 around Wedgewood Rd., Harding Place, and Armory Drive. Existing business zones there would render expansion impossible without harming the businesses adjacent to the interstate.  And to try to expand  the interchanges among 65, 24 and 40? Not going to happen without having to shut down three lanes at a time. That amount of construction would retard traffic so badly that commuters would be idling on those sections of the interstate for hours at a time.

We can all agree that an attempt to widen the interstates is a poor alternative. Other alternatives fronted by the anti-transit crowd include things we haven't even invented yet. Flying cars have been mentioned before. Yes, I can understand and appreciate skepticism due to technological advancement, and how current transit technology could be obsolete at some point. But "at some point" is the key here. Nobody knows when, and as it stands, we have not invented-much less implemented and materialized- better technology to gets thousands of people moving from one place to another than commuter rail. If you disagree with my claim, I will stand corrected if you can show me that better transit technology has proven effective somewhere else.

[BnaBreaker]

It's okay to be ignorant.  We're all ignorant about many things.  But anyone who is not only ignorant about something, but wholly unwilling to absolve themselves of their ignorance by doing more research than memorizing a few memes from the 'Suck it libtards' Facebook page has no place interjecting themselves into the middle of a debate about that subject.  I also question how much they actually care about the subject itself if they aren't willing to actually educate themselves about it.  My guess is that most of these people are only involved in order to be a stick in the mud and annoy people they see as their political opposition.

Edited March 31, 2018 by BnaBreaker

[Buildtall]

Maybe the vote for transit people need to have a commercial where tdot tells how many years it would take and how many billions it would take to widen the interstates around town. 

I remember a few years ago ( 2015) watching the news and hearing a tdot story about not widen the interstate lanes around town because it wouldn’t help.

Here it is in the bizjournals link but I remember seeing this on I believe channel 4. 

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/blog/2015/07/tdot-s-nashville-interstate-dilemma-we-can-t.html

[PaulChinetti]

https://www.wired.com/2014/06/wuwt-traffic-induced-demand/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand

I’m not sure how many times I’ve sent these links to people. More roads equals more traffic. They aren’t the answer, I’ve made maybe 2 people think differently, BEGRUDGINGLY about transit haha.

[Bos2Nash]

Interesting article regarding traffic around the top 25 most congested cities in the nation. Nashville is ranked #17 in the country! The study calculated "Cost of Congestion" that includes time, fuel and carbon emissions over the next decade. Nashville's cost will be 8.4 BILLION (hmm that is getting oddly close to another figure getting tossed around alot). Granted it pales in comparison to LA (#1) who has the cost of just over 90 billion. And people think we should just keep expanding the highways and encouraging more cars on the road.

http://inrix.com/press-releases/us-hotspots/

[BnaBreaker]

56 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

Interesting article regarding traffic around the top 25 most congested cities in the nation. Nashville is ranked #17 in the country! The study calculated "Cost of Congestion" that includes time, fuel and carbon emissions over the next decade. Nashville's cost will be 8.4 BILLION (hmm that is getting oddly close to another figure getting tossed around alot). Granted it pales in comparison to LA (#1) who has the cost of just over 90 billion. And people think we should just keep expanding the highways and encouraging more cars on the road.

http://inrix.com/press-releases/us-hotspots/

That's pretty appalling considering the fact that Nashville is just the 37th largest metro area in the country.  The thing with mass transit is that unlike an investment in highway widening, which only alleviates traffic (and it's debatable whether it even achieves that as the links Paul shared contend,) a roughly equivalent investment into mass transit provides so many OTHER benefits beyond easing transportation woes, some of which are plainly evident and others which are harder to quantify.  The bottom line is that an investment into mass transit is an investment into our COMMUNITIES and our PEOPLE too, and not just an investment into helping suburban commuters get home from work a few minutes quicker.

Edited March 31, 2018 by BnaBreaker

[Guest]

I hope we can agree most Nashvillian's, for or against, are mostly ignorant of the details of the mass transit plan. It is not realistic to compare the general public's interest/knowledge on this matter to the members of this board. For the most part, the people I have spoken with regarding the transit plan understand enough relative to the impact it will have on them. If they do not live nor visit downtown or the close-in neighborhoods often they see it as another big-money giveaway to downtown residents, corporate nashville, and developers. Add the fact (admitted by both sides) that the transit plan will not reduce traffic congestion we are all experiencing and they are asking a legitimate question, "Why will my taxes go up for a vanity project I do not foresee myself using and that will not improve my experience with Nashville's traffic?" You can disagree with your answers, but it is a valid question. 

Here is an analysis by an opponent of the transit plan and a Vanderbilt Professor....maybe he is not ignorant? Maybe he just believe the plan to be bad policy.

https://www.scribd.com/document/374567167/Malcolm-Getz-New-Critique
 

Edited March 31, 2018 by Guest

[BnaBreaker]

2 hours ago, nashville_bound said:

I hope we can agree most Nashvillian's, for or against, are mostly ignorant of the details of the mass transit plan. It is not realistic to compare the general public's interest/knowledge on this matter to the members of this board. For the most part, the people I have spoken with regarding the transit plan understand enough relative to the impact it will have on them. If they do not live nor visit downtown or the close-in neighborhoods often they see it as another big-money giveaway to downtown residents, corporate nashville, and developers. Add the fact (admitted by both sides) that the transit plan will not reduce traffic congestion we are all experiencing and they are asking a legitimate question, "Why will my taxes go up for a vanity project I do not foresee myself using and that will not improve my experience with Nashville's traffic?" You can disagree with your answers, but it is a valid question. 

Here is an analysis by an opponent of the transit plan and a Vanderbilt Professor....maybe he is not ignorant? Maybe he just believe the plan to be bad policy.

https://www.scribd.com/document/374567167/Malcolm-Getz-New-Critique
 

Fair points, and for the record, I wasn't referring to anyone who opposes the plan, but rather, the 'facebook comments section' types.  

[Guest]

The FB threads were awful. I am sure I can find the same level of parroting slogans from pro transit posters. Generally, FB threads are awful....similar to online newspaper comments.