The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[PaulChinetti]

If one side can blatantly lie and there is no consequences, why can't the other side say things that are mostly true, where is the line drawn? Why shouldn't they both be honest and accountable?

 

I personally wish both sides said only things that were 100% true, then let the voters decide.

[12Mouth]

2 hours ago, jmtunafish said:

Ugh.  Here we go again.  Why bring "Koch brothers" into this?  Or "leaders in fake news"?  One of the reasons I like David Briley's thing is that he didn't make this into a left vs. right issue.  I'm a conservative who believes in the freedom of choice and the evils of a bloated and overreaching federal government.  If I weren't already a supporter of this, I'd look at the above posters and would be against it just to spite their cavalier use of "Koch brothers" and "fake news" as if the Koch brothers are the only ones out there making fake news.  Transit for Nashville is clearly not interested in gaining support from conservatives.  Besides, "Highways are controlled by the federal government" isn't entirely true, either. 

I actually think it is appropriate here. Look, the Koch brothers have made many important civic contributions and seem to be quite generous people.

However, it seems fair to me to know who is funding our anti-tranist plan: oil money and car dealers (or a car dealer). And I don’t fault them for being against it...this is in their own financial interest. But I don’t think this information should be out of bounds.

[ruraljuror]

3 hours ago, jmtunafish said:

Ugh.  Here we go again.  Why bring "Koch brothers" into this?  

Seems to me like the Koch brothers brought themselves into this.  

 

[henburg]

4 hours ago, jmtunafish said:

Ugh.  Here we go again.  Why bring "Koch brothers" into this?  Or "leaders in fake news"?  One of the reasons I like David Briley's thing is that he didn't make this into a left vs. right issue.  I'm a conservative who believes in the freedom of choice and the evils of a bloated and overreaching federal government.  If I weren't already a supporter of this, I'd look at the above posters and would be against it just to spite their cavalier use of "Koch brothers" and "fake news" as if the Koch brothers are the only ones out there making fake news.  Transit for Nashville is clearly not interested in gaining support from conservatives.  Besides, "Highways are controlled by the federal government" isn't entirely true, either. 

I hate the term "fake news". It's been thrown around so much that it's totally meaningless now and it doesn't belong anywhere near official government releases. That said, I don't think it's a bad thing to name drop the Koch Brothers at all. People deserve to know where their information is coming from, and it's just a fact that the Koch Brothers have been meddling in Nashville's push for transit for years now. As far as I'm aware, there is no equivalent that is funding Transit for Nashville. I don't think that it's a left vs. right issue to be against billionaires who live hundreds of miles away from Nashville using their power to spread misinformation about a transit plan that isn't being built for them in the first place. "Freedom of choice" is nice and all, but I get angry when people like them try to make choices FOR us. 

[Bos2Nash]

Another unfortunate accident involving autonomous vehicle (or driverless mode)

https://www.dezeen.com/2018/04/03/driver-killed-tesla-model-x-operting-autopilot-mode/

From what the article states, the driver was given plenty of warnings, just no action was ever taken. It is an example of if humans can/want to be distracted, they will be. This is a major concern for when autonomous vehicles become more mainstream. For me personally it is also another reason why we cannot rely on them entirely for a mass transit system.

[Pdt2f]

I don’t know if it counts as trying to appeal to conservatives, but I heard a “For Transit” ad on 95.5 an hour ago. 

[jmtunafish]

Again, I'm not disputing that the Koch brothers are meddling in this whole thing.  I'm just pointing out that bringing it up isn't going to attract many conservatives to the cause.  Mayor Briley was astute enough to not make it into a right vs. left issue.  It looks like whoever made these posters are targeting other liberals who may be undecided and figure they probably don't need the support of conservatives.  They're probably right, even though I would be an exception.

[ruraljuror]

18 minutes ago, jmtunafish said:

Again, I'm not disputing that the Koch brothers are meddling in this whole thing.  I'm just pointing out that bringing it up isn't going to attract many conservatives to the cause.  Mayor Briley was astute enough to not make it into a right vs. left issue.  It looks like whoever made these posters are targeting other liberals who may be undecided and figure they probably don't need the support of conservatives.  They're probably right, even though I would be an exception.

 

That's fair.  It's also possible they gambled that most of the conservatives who are already inclined to support the transit proposal probably weren't going to change their votes just because it's pointed out that the Koch brothers are on the other side of this particular debate.   Even more likely, the pro-transit marketers determined that the majority of undecided voters were liberal-leaners who could best be motivated by tribalism and/or anti-Koch sentiment, so they're giving it a shot and hoping it doesn't backfire.

[Pdt2f]

21 minutes ago, jmtunafish said:

Again, I'm not disputing that the Koch brothers are meddling in this whole thing.  I'm just pointing out that bringing it up isn't going to attract many conservatives to the cause.  Mayor Briley was astute enough to not make it into a right vs. left issue.  It looks like whoever made these posters are targeting other liberals who may be undecided and figure they probably don't need the support of conservatives.  They're probably right, even though I would be an exception.

The thing that is irritating to me is that they’ve probably already got the liberal crowd locked up with transit. They need help with the conservative and lower income crowds, and the “Koch brothers are the devil/fake news” schtick isn’t going to turn the needle with either group. They should emphasize that this will be paid for in large part by tourist dollars, with the only tax most Nashville residents will see is a small sales tax increase. That’s what turned me onto transit, that the financials make it less burdensome than a plan like this should otherwise be. 

[Tennessine]

56 minutes ago, Pdt2f said:

The thing that is irritating to me is that they’ve probably already got the liberal crowd locked up with transit. They need help with the conservative and lower income crowds, and the “Koch brothers are the devil/fake news” schtick isn’t going to turn the needle with either group. They should emphasize that this will be paid for in large part by tourist dollars, with the only tax most Nashville residents will see is a small sales tax increase. That’s what turned me onto transit, that the financials make it less burdensome than a plan like this should otherwise be. 

The For crowd have been unsuccessful in pulling support from people on the right. They are exacerbating an issue that shouldn't be ideological in the first place by feeding into the conspiracy side of the debate. The childish rhetoric like "Koch brothers control all the money and will ruin the city's future with the help of the media and brainwashing, yada yada yada, etc. etc. etc." is the liberal version of the right's "Oh, you hate America? Libtard! Socialism done gonna destroy us all!"  In fairness, I read seen much less nonsensical arguments from the For supporters; most of the Against crowd are copy/pasting the same old thing about taxation on every social media platform.

Bottom line, it's so hard to argue with anybody- either side- who interprets conspiracy theories literally. That is the single most frustrating thing about this transit debate. Both sides are ready to whip out the same old crap you hear everywhere else if they fall short on facts.

[PaulChinetti]

I don’t 

1 hour ago, Pdt2f said:

The thing that is irritating to me is that they’ve probably already got the liberal crowd locked up with transit. 

I’d say not, I was like 60/40 that transit was gonna happen but with the lack of ANY MESSAGE from the pro crowd, I’m leaning more 50/50. 

We saw the Pro Transit message with Gnash and a few Preds players on tv, the other day and my wife said, “What does that message even mean?”

I think who ever is running this ‘marketing’ campaign either doesn’t know what’s going on or has an April in store for us that we can’t  even believe...

> I was also just downtown for the Titans  uni reveal and there was a No Tax for Trax on the currently under construction Trailwest Venue... WHY???

[volsfanwill]

9 minutes ago, PaulChinetti said:

 

> I was also just downtown for the Titans  uni reveal and there was a No Tax for Trax on the currently under construction Trailwest Venue... WHY???

because, if im not mistaken, the guy building it is the same one that seems to thing building a tunnel under 5th will ruin his broadway business by tearing up the street for years on end.

[BnaBreaker]

37 minutes ago, volsfanwill said:

because, if im not mistaken, the guy building it is the same one that seems to thing building a tunnel under 5th will ruin his broadway business by tearing up the street for years on end.

So he wants millions of people around the region to be without access to a proper transit system because of reasons he literally just made up.  Brilliant.

[markhollin]

This is the spot that the Preds helped put together to support the Mass Transit plan.  It is primarily airing during Predators broadcasts.

 

[Bos2Nash]

^^this is such an odd way to try and advertise the transit plan. I understand speaking to the crowds worried specifically about travel time, but beyond that, this is a very minimal approach showing minimal benefits. If I had to guess the approach is to try and have small victories leading to something bigger (big April push like mentioned above).

I would also think they would try to show how light rail and transit as a whole has been successful elsewhere. Seattle just finished their extension (and done quite beautifully I might add), I know Charlotte has been dissected here countless times, or even some of the bigger cities such as Los Angeles' expansion or even looking at New York/Chicago/Boston in terms of precedents (i know these cities are much larger, but they can show what benefits come from it)

One other thing... I was taking a look at the plan map again today and I noticed the Nolensville Pike route continues to show the very strange "double turn". Does anyone have any info on how the light rail would actually be oriented down Nolensville? From experience, I know that corners like that one do not bode well for trains and I think it would be a massive mistake to follow the road there.

[markhollin]

NBJ has put together a map of where they believe the 44 light rail stops would be located based on a technical memo that was released last December, that pinpointed the specific cross streets where stations might go.  Of course, none of this is official, nor is it guaranteed as things might be altered dependent on land purchases, etc.

More here:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2018/04/05/first-glimpse-heres-where-metro-might-place-stops.html

 

[GreenHillsBoy]

I was downtown last night for the Titans jersey unveiling and was very surprised to see large vote against transit signs hanging from Honkey Tonk Central and Rippy's.   I don't understand those establishments being against it.  The tax really won't hit retail other than customers paying a little more on sales.  It would seem better transit options and hopefully less traffic on Broadway would be a good thing especially with the escalating parking prices.  What am I missing? 

[MidTenn1]

18 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

........

One other thing... I was taking a look at the plan map again today and I noticed the Nolensville Pike route continues to show the very strange "double turn". Does anyone have any info on how the light rail would actually be oriented down Nolensville? From experience, I know that corners like that one do not bode well for trains and I think it would be a massive mistake to follow the road there.

The Nolensville line will have to split up into north bound and southbound lines on separate streets for a couple of miles due to the existing traffic requirements on narrow roads. It will reconnect at the Fairgrounds.

[PaulChinetti]

It's because they want to keep 2nd and 4th one way for some reason. I wish they would take this opportunity to make them 2-way. 

It's easier for everyone to get around and I've seen studies that show 1 way streets kill business and cause people to speed and making them 2-way does so many good things for the neighborhoods.

[PaulChinetti]

Got this in the mail yesterday.

"That's too much for a plan that leaves out large portions of the city." This plan costs TOO much, we need a bigger plan, that would costs LESS??

Scratches head... screams into the abyss 

[Bos2Nash]

1 hour ago, PHofKS said:

The Nolensville line will have to split up into north bound and southbound lines on separate streets for a couple of miles due to the existing traffic requirements on narrow roads. It will reconnect at the Fairgrounds.

 

1 hour ago, PaulChinetti said:

It's because they want to keep 2nd and 4th one way for some reason. I wish they would take this opportunity to make them 2-way. 

It's easier for everyone to get around and I've seen studies that show 1 way streets kill business and cause people to speed and making them 2-way does so many good things for the neighborhoods.

Thanks for the info. IMO transit is different from traffic patterns. Trains have restrictions on slope, speed on turns so logic says to have them go as straight and level as possible. Having a two track on a one-way street would not be that hard of a solution. They are gonna need signals for track crossing at all the cross streets anyways, why double the effort and cost??

4 minutes ago, PaulChinetti said:

Got this in the mail yesterday.

"That's too much for a plan that leaves out large portions of the city." This plan costs TOO much, we need a bigger plan, that would costs LESS??

Scratches head... screams into the abyss 

UGGHHH. I wish you could actually have a debate with these people on some form of civil level. 

Also, I find it funny how they quote themselves as a source for the 43,000 sales tax pricetag.

[bigeasy]

"I quote myself all the time"   -Me

[henburg]

It’s probably a bit early to say this, but I just have the persistent gut feeling that this will not pass. Innaccurate or not, the opposition’s campaign has been much more relentless than Transit for Nashville’s and as a result they are completely dictating the narrative. Factor in the Megan Barry scandal and I really can’t see this plan succeeding, which is just astronomically disappointing. Transit for Nashville needs to step up thier game yesterday. 

Edited April 5, 2018 by henburg

[PaulChinetti]

https://streetmix.net

Interesting little tool to design streets. 

https://streetmixology.tumblr.com/post/59024603977/streetmix-in-the-real-world-part-2

The blog has links to all sorts of road related links. 

[tragenvol]

2 hours ago, henburg said:

Factor in the Megan Barry scandal and I really can’t see this plan succeeding, which is just astronomically disappointing. Transit for Nashville needs to step up thier game yesterday. 

Agreed; the plan is guilty by association with Barry....rightly or not.....and this association with the disgraced Mayor will have bearing on this vote.  Mayor Briley has stated he's pro-transit, but how pro-transit is he truly when he could disavow any ownership to this plan when he runs for Mayor later this year?

I haven't seen him out in front of this vote for the plan at more than a minimum.