The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[BnaBreaker]

1 hour ago, nashville_bound said:

Good question. I am not making a case that mass transit increases drug use. However, much like the pocket park being discussed in the new Tony Girantanna (SP) thread, a transit station provided a climate-controlled space in which to ply their craft.
 

 

So homeless drug addicts are using a subway tunnel to shoot up, and your first instinct is not to address the root causes of opioid addiction and homelessness, but rather, to eliminate all underground public transportation and enclosed public spaces in general?  I don't mean to be coarse or dismissive by saying this, but with all due respect...  HUH?!?    That's a bit like saying, 'in order to prevent more school shootings, how about we do away with schools!?' 

Edited April 26, 2018 by BnaBreaker

[NashvilleObserver]

8 minutes ago, BnaBreaker said:

So homeless drug addicts are using a subway tunnel to shoot up, and your first instinct is not to address the root causes of opioid addiction and homelessness, but rather, to eliminate all underground public transportation and enclosed public spaces in general?  I don't mean to be coarse or dismissive by saying this, but with all due respect...  HUH?!?    That's a bit like saying, 'in order to prevent more school shootings, how about we do away with schools!?' 

"Yes!! Look at whats happening in San Francisco! Do you want public drug use to come to Nashville TOO??!! Vote NO for transit or else we will be infiltrated with public drug users!! Scaaary!!!" - Literally the same uninformed scare tactic as the photo of the cars in the sinkhole, and the ridiculous post about "People were shot in a Waffle House. Transit will cause MORE of this!!"

[volsfanwill]

voted YES after work.  Green Hills Library.   Ironically people were having to park all over the street because so many people arrived, 1 person per car.  if only something could help alleviate that.

but more seriously,  it was very crowded, it took almost an hour.

I'm more optimistic today.  I had 2 friends who I thought were no votes tell me they voted yes.  and I had an undecided friend call me on her way to vote to have me explain it to her again.   I had to break down the taxes into actual $ figures. and said that even if she wont use it, wouldnt it be nice if fewer cars were added to her route to work.   

she voted yes. 

[SoundScan]

The best thing that could happen for the pro-transit referendum push is that traffic throughout the city on Monday-Tuesday next week is atrocious.

[e-dub]

https://twitter.com/joeygarrison/status/989678712831528961

Edited April 27, 2018 by e-dub
i hate auto-parsing.

[nashvylle]

2 hours ago, volsfanwill said:

voted YES after work.  Green Hills Library.   Ironically people were having to park all over the street because so many people arrived, 1 person per car.  if only something could help alleviate that.

but more seriously,  it was very crowded, it took almost an hour.

I'm more optimistic today.  I had 2 friends who I thought were no votes tell me they voted yes.  and I had an undecided friend call me on her way to vote to have me explain it to her again.   I had to break down the taxes into actual $ figures. and said that even if she wont use it, wouldnt it be nice if fewer cars were added to her route to work.   

she voted yes. 

I’m glad you’re optimistic, but I can’t keep thinking about all those single drivers complaining how there is no parking... before they vote no

[Guest]

Except the video I posted is of a mass transit station. I mean I have not seen a phone booth since my last visit to London...and I did not see 20 people shooting up in them.

 

4 hours ago, ruraljuror said:

Phone booths, covered bus stops, public restrooms--they've all scene their fair share of scary/undesirable public behavior that most of us would certainly prefer to avoid.  I did not intend to put words in your mouth, but what you call a leap in logic I would say is the next logical step to your line of thinking.  

The problems you highlight are indeed legitimate, but they have as much to do with Mass transit as a phone booth. 

 

[Guest]

The dialogue would be more constructive if some of you actually read my posts and did not respond to things I do not say.

I will try again-

1) It was a subway station not a tunnel ...
2) This is a mass transit thread so I am addressing the shocking video and how it may relate to Nashville in that context. As an aside I started a thread on urban crime in the coffeehouse where we have touched on drug abuse/epidemic/crime.
3) And the point both you and rural juror must have missed. I am against the transit plan for reasons I have made clear throughout this thread, irrespective of the possibility of  increased  lawlessness. To reiterate ....."Build it - don't build it, but for Heaven's sake enforce the law and do not allow it to become but a refuge for lawlessness."...pretty simple statement.

3 hours ago, BnaBreaker said:

So homeless drug addicts are using a subway tunnel to shoot up, and your first instinct is not to address the root causes of opioid addiction and homelessness, but rather, to eliminate all underground public transportation and enclosed public spaces in general?  I don't mean to be coarse or dismissive by saying this, but with all due respect...  HUH?!?    That's a bit like saying, 'in order to prevent more school shootings, how about we do away with schools!?' 

 

[KJHburg]

Here is what I can tell you from Charlotte.   Light rail will NOT solve your traffic problems but what it does it gives additional options to people that are needed.  Options to get downtown to games, business meetings at a regular time instead of worrying about traffic, ability to not pay high downtown parking costs etc.   It seems to increase bike riding to work as bikes are allowed on our trains.  It has changed development in Charlotte. Whereas I noticed last May when I was in Nashville you have apartment development going up everywhere,  a fair majority of our new apartment development is is along our LYNX lightrail line both north and south of uptown.  We now have major office buildings going up near stops major corporations.  Plus it connects UNC Charlotte with its 19,000 students to uptown and it is included in student fees.

Overall I can't imagine what Charlotte traffic would be like and what parking would be like without our light rail.  

Some photos of along our new extension that brings us to over 19 miles now that just opened in March.  We have old mills being renovated by new stations, new apartments all along the line, single story office buildings being replaced by 5 story apartment/retail buildings.    all photos are from the train or a station. 

[ruraljuror]

3 minutes ago, nashville_bound said:

Except the video I posted is of a mass transit station. I mean I have not seen a phone booth since my last visit to London...and I did not see 20 people shooting up in them.

 

 

It seems like you're deliberately dancing around the point.   I get that it's a scary video of a subway station, and nobody wants to have to witness that.  But if I posted a video of a bunch of people shooting up in an alley, I'm guessing you wouldn't start opposing alleys, right?  What about atm kiosks,?

I know phone booths are anachronistic, but the point is that nobody ever saw a prostitute going to work in a phone booth and thought it reflected poorly on the viability of public telecommunications. 

And yes, we're all aware of your position on transit generally.  If your whole point is that the police should be enforcing the law, then yes, of course.  It's not as though this hasn't occurred to the San Francisco police and citizenry.  The problem becomes what do you do with them, which is a whole different discussion and, much like the problem itself, has absolutely nothing to do with mass transit.  

 

[SoundScan]

50 minutes ago, nashville_bound said:

The dialogue would be more constructive if some of you actually read my posts and did not respond to things I do not say.

I will try again-

1) It was a subway station not a tunnel ...
2) This is a mass transit thread so I am addressing the shocking video and how it may relate to Nashville in that context. As an aside I started a thread on urban crime in the coffeehouse where we have touched on drug abuse/epidemic/crime.
3) And the point both you and rural juror must have missed. I am against the transit plan for reasons I have made clear throughout this thread, irrespective of the possibility of  increased  lawlessness. To reiterate ....."Build it - don't build it, but for Heaven's sake enforce the law and do not allow it to become but a refuge for lawlessness."...pretty simple statement.

 

Your posts read like someone who has never really traveled* anywhere, much less outside your comfort zone--which appears to be quite narrow. I know many people that live in such a bubble and, unsurprisingly, have very views very similar to yours as they obsess over the worst case scenario at every turn.

*I emphasized this word with purpose

[nashvillwill]

As a former resident of San Francisco, I can tell you that that BART station is not some secret hideaway for drug use, but simply a reflection of what’s going on everywhere in the city. You see it on every street corner. 

It breaks my heart to say that, but it’s just the way it is. My point is, I doubt those users were thinking “this is the perfect spot to shoot up”, but more likely just the next piece of real estate they stumbled upon. 

S.F. Is a lovely city, for what that’s worth. I doubt that addicts are much more per capita there than anywhere else. The difference is density. Every square inch of that city is developed. When there is nowhere to hide, it’s just in everyone’s face. Go down under any freeway in our city and I bet you’ll find a similar scene. 

I’m sure there are plenty of addicts in Williamson County as well.  They are just out of sight and mind. 

Edited April 27, 2018 by nashvillwill

[BnaBreaker]

11 hours ago, nashville_bound said:

The dialogue would be more constructive if some of you actually read my posts and did not respond to things I do not say.

That's fair, and if I took you out of context then I apologize.  In all actuality, though, I reread your post at least three times to make sure I was absorbing it as it was intended to be absorbed, because I was so surprised that someone as seemingly intelligent and level-headed as you was attempting to make the overly-simplified point I thought you were trying to make.  Obviously, that doesn't mean I couldn't have still misread your post, but my point is, I was not deliberately taking your words out of context, if I did.  

Quote

1) It was a subway station not a tunnel ...

I fail to see the difference as it pertains to the context of this discussion. 

Quote

2) This is a mass transit thread so I am addressing the shocking video and how it may relate to Nashville in that context. As an aside I started a thread on urban crime in the coffeehouse where we have touched on drug abuse/epidemic/crime.

I could walk two blocks down the street this very instant and record a video of a subway station that isn't filled with junkies.  Would that single video affect your position on the subject as much as the single video you shared did to the contrary?  I doubt it would, and you'd be right not to let it.  But why is that?  You're a very intelligent person.  You don't strike me as someone who would normally make a habit of drawing such simplistic conclusions.  Ask yourself why you're willing to allow a single video from a single point in time from a single subway station in a single city to shape your opinion in such a sweeping fashion on such a wide-ranging topic, but unwilling (i'm assuming) to allow another video showing a different scenario the same easy access to your thought patterns.  Could it be that you had already made up your mind on the subject of whether mass transit promotes crime and were looking simply to work your way backward to find anything that justifies your existing belief, rather than forming your position only after examining all the available information?  Ah, but you stated that I had you all wrong and took your words out of context.  I'm more than open to that possibility.  So please let me know.  Where did I go wrong?

Quote

3) And the point both you and rural juror must have missed. I am against the transit plan for reasons I have made clear throughout this thread, irrespective of the possibility of  increased  lawlessness. To reiterate ....."Build it - don't build it, but for Heaven's sake enforce the law and do not allow it to become but a refuge for lawlessness."...pretty simple statement.

There is no possibility of increased lawlessness.  If an area has a problem with homelessness and/or public drug use, as SF does, then there's a chance those issues might bleed over into it's underground transit system.  If those problems aren't widespread, then they probably won't.  End of story.

As far as your opposition to our plan is concerned, I'm well aware that your primary concern is the overall cost of the project.  But then that begs the question, what was the point of posting that video in the first place?  The conclusion you should come to after watching that video is that San Francisco has a problem with homeless addicts.  It has nothing to do with Nashville or mass transit as a concept, and if you thought there was a correlation there to highlight, that would speak volumes.  If your point really was just a simple law and order message, then yes, I'm sure we all would agree that laws should be enforced.  That video, however, was not an effective tool for conveying that that message, which is why I think many of us, myself included, assumed there was a larger point being made there that transit isn't worth investing in because homeless people generally prefer being indoors.

Edited April 27, 2018 by BnaBreaker

[markhollin]

Businesses offer transit, carpooling incentives as recruitment, sustainability tool:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/money/2018/04/26/businesses-offer-transit-carpooling-incentives-recruitment-sustainability-tool/444379002/

[nashvylle]

As a New Yorker, I will say if you think driverless cars alone will save Nashville’s traffic woes, it won’t, and I believe it will make it worse. 

Cabs/Uber/lyft/via are all essentially driverless cars... and 2 or 3 people per car and that’s it will make traffic a nightmare. 

[PaulChinetti]

I think I posted this before. But a great visual illustration. 

[Pdt2f]

10 hours ago, SoundScan said:

Your posts read like someone who has never really traveled* anywhere, much less outside your comfort zone--which appears to be quite narrow. I know many people that live in such a bubble and, unsurprisingly, have very views very similar to yours as they obsess over the worst case scenario at every turn.

*I emphasized this word with purpose

I think that’s an unfair characterization to make, people can have differing opinions about things while still being “well travelled.” Anyway, travelling frequently and extensively takes thousands in disposable income, flexibility with time, and lesser or less-intense responsibility. Perhaps those who you know who are “worse-case-scenario” people are that way because they don’t have your financial flexibility? It’s easy to think of worse case scenarios when you’re one paycheck away from financial ruin. 

[Will]

1 hour ago, PaulChinetti said:

I think I posted this before. But a great visual illustration. 

Very cool - bring on the bikes! Muscle Rapid Transit doesn't get much press but it's the way to go if distance allows.

[nashvylle]

@KJHburg what types of taxes were used for your light rail and on the lines that were built, have the come within budget? 

[markhollin]

Mayors and leaders from surrounding towns/counties weigh-in on the Transit Plan vote:  

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2018/04/27/region-back-nashville-transit-plan-when-counts/507970002/

[ruraljuror]

55 minutes ago, Pdt2f said:

I think that’s an unfair characterization to make, people can have differing opinions about things while still being “well travelled.” Anyway, travelling frequently and extensively takes thousands in disposable income, flexibility with time, and lesser or less-intense responsibility. Perhaps those who you know who are “worse-case-scenario” people are that way because they don’t have your financial flexibility? It’s easy to think of worse case scenarios when you’re one paycheck away from financial ruin. 

I agree with this generally, and well-travelled can mean a lot of different things.  Many Americans have visited Zimbabwe, but there's a big difference in the experiences of those who went on a glamping safari and those that went to help dig a well for a poor village.  The all inclusive meal plan in your 5 star Cambodian hotel's restaurant is not the same experience as eating street food outside your 1 star hostel.  But you're certainly right that either vacation option requires more disposable income than most have available to spend.

That said, in my experience, the 'worst-case-scenario' people tend to be the ones with more to lose and a significant fear about losing it.  People who are broke and teetering on the brink usually have more immediate problems to worry about, though we all seem to be able to make a little time for blaming a scapegoat now and again.  

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2018 by ruraljuror

[KJHburg]

6 minutes ago, nashvylle said:

@KJHburg what types of taxes were used for your light rail and on the lines that were built, have the come within budget? 

We had a combination of sales tax .5% which was the local share, Federal and state funding.  And I am not trying to say it wasn't controversial here is a recap from Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynx_Blue_Line  

In the future for more  rail lines all kinds of ideas for funding are being proposed including tax districts around the lines to capture that value that has been created, increasing the half cent sales tax but remember our sales tax is much lower than Nashville's.   But most people in this area do support the transit especially in the core county of Mecklenburg (like Davidson county)  However we do have suburban counties now connecting their intra-county bus service across the county line to the LYNX stations most notably Cabarrus County to the NE of Charlotte.  

On budget depends on whom you ask? the latest line they are saying it was on budget but others are saying no not really. 

[Rockatansky]

23 hours ago, samsonh said:

3 or 4 years with another proposal for mass transit.

I think it'll be longer than this if the May referendum doesn't pass. It'll likely take a Mayor in their second term before a new plan can be submitted. That's at least 4 years away, and possibly longer.

17 hours ago, nativetenn said:

worst drug crisis in human history.

Wasn't half of China addicted to opium back in the gunboat diplomacy days?

[PruneTracy]

11 hours ago, ruraljuror said:

I get that it's a scary video of a subway station, and nobody wants to have to witness that.  But if I posted a video of a bunch of people shooting up in an alley, I'm guessing you wouldn't start opposing alleys, right?  What about atm kiosks,?

A quick word on this from someone who works on buildings like transit stations, etc. where security is a design factor.

The issue isn't so much where people commit crimes or engage in other seedy behavior so much as how easy the location makes it to do without being observed. This is the difference between the tunnel and, for example, a transit/pedestrian mall on Fifth Avenue. People could conceivably do anything at either location, but it would be a lot harder to hide on the pedestrian/transit mall, which would be at ground level on a public street.

You can design around this to an extent, but it does introduce a certain cost. The tunnel, for example, may need additional surveillance cameras, or additional security personnel (it's worth noting here that some larger cities have a police force dedicated to their transit system). That adds an upfront cost and ongoing cost that may not be necessary with other options. In particular, the ongoing cost is troubling because it's not self-funding (unless you're receiving ticket revenue or something similar) and it doesn't directly impact transit service metrics (which makes it low-hanging fruit if the transit budget needs to be cut).

To be clear, it's not a dealbreaker, and is a relatively small cost in the overall plan, but it goes back to the question of whether the level of transit need that Nashville has or will have matches the cost and complexity of the transit infrastructure proposed in this plan.

[ruraljuror]

43 minutes ago, PruneTracy said:

A quick word on this from someone who works on buildings like transit stations, etc. where security is a design factor.

The issue isn't so much where people commit crimes or engage in other seedy behavior so much as how easy the location makes it to do without being observed. This is the difference between the tunnel and, for example, a transit/pedestrian mall on Fifth Avenue. People could conceivably do anything at either location, but it would be a lot harder to hide on the pedestrian/transit mall, which would be at ground level on a public street.

You can design around this to an extent, but it does introduce a certain cost. The tunnel, for example, may need additional surveillance cameras, or additional security personnel (it's worth noting here that some larger cities have a police force dedicated to their transit system). That adds an upfront cost and ongoing cost that may not be necessary with other options. In particular, the ongoing cost is troubling because it's not self-funding (unless you're receiving ticket revenue or something similar) and it doesn't directly impact transit service metrics (which makes it low-hanging fruit if the transit budget needs to be cut).

To be clear, it's not a dealbreaker, and is a relatively small cost in the overall plan, but it goes back to the question of whether the level of transit need that Nashville has or will have matches the cost and complexity of the transit infrastructure proposed in this plan.

 

I don't disagree with any of that, but I don't think it gets to the point of this issue.

Subway stations are surely more prone to crime than parks and sidewalks for the reasons you gave, but the subway station in NB's video is not representative of most subway stations.  In fact, one of the reasons so many of them can 'get away' with shooting up in these subway stations is because there are even more of them shooting up in the parks and on the sidewalks of San Francisco at that very moment.   The problem isn't the stations, but that there are so many homeless heroine addicts that they can't possibly arrest and jail them all on a daily basis and no one has apparently come up with a solution. 

And yes, I'm sure there is a greater likelihood of criminal behavior that comes with subway stations than there is with elevated above-ground train stations., for example.  There are trade-offs with either option.  More crime and larger construction/security expense with subways, while elevated trains come with more noise, obstructed views, shadows, road-closures for maintenance, etc.   And neither option addresses or eliminates the underlying criminal behavior.  That said, if the point of the junkies in the subway station video was to promote above-ground trains as a better alternative than subway stations because it somewhat reduces (though doesn't eliminate) the opportunity for crime, then I guess it's a fair point. 

But when cities install leaning posts instead of benches at bus stops, it doesn't mean that there are any less homeless people sleeping in the area.  Sometimes it keeps them out of sight, though often they'll just sleep on the sidewalk instead.   In fact, you could demolish all the bus stops and shut down bus service altogether, but it wouldn't reduce the number of homeless people on the streets.  These problems are unrelated to mass transit.

 

Edited April 27, 2018 by ruraljuror