The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[Tennessine]

Shameful.

 

I'll be very interested to hear from the people who came out against the transit plan when gasoline is >$4.00 per gallon.

54 minutes ago, nashville_bound said:

Hold my beer. 
 

 

*does nothing*

[Neigeville2]

1 minute ago, MLBrumby said:

...that includes LRT along unconnected (i.e. less used) streets, such as Grundy (or Hayes) Street from downtown to Midtown. Stay the heck off Charlotte and Broadway. Why? ...

This is a recipe for failure.  LRT will only succeed if it goes close to where large numbers of people need to go.  It seems easier to build it where it's not needed. but if the ridership is not there it will be viewed as a failed experiment and they'll say, "see, people in Nashville like their cars".   A more reasonable approach would be to build starter lines in East Nashville and on Charlotte where people want it-perhaps have a referendum where only the people in those neighborhoods can vote.  Experience has shown that if it's at all successful, other neighborhoods will be clamoring for it soon enough.

[henburg]

4 minutes ago, MLBrumby said:

Folks, I've told you before and I'll say it again. You cannot use existing connector streets to "plop down" light rail as that's how it would be seen by those who use those streets to commute in/out of downtown.  You have to have a phased in plan (not a bite too big to chew).. that includes LRT along unconnected (i.e. less used) streets, such as Grundy (or Hayes) Street from downtown to Midtown. Stay the heck off Charlotte and Broadway. Why? Because people will see that as disrupting their daily drive. Yes... I know! It's very short-sighted, but Davidson County voters are skeptics at heart. They really don't trust government. So bottom line: the plan must be reasonable (even gradual); affordable; and maybe (just maybe) involve a "reasonable" tax hike on someone (the other). As many here have said, this thing went down when its chief proponent Mayor Barry was suddenly deemed to be untrustworthy. Would it have passed if she had not been consumed by scandal?  We don't know for sure, but the chances of its passing were much greater before that happened. 

These are all really good points, I think that your note about crafting an incremented plan will be especially important going forward. While this board loved the plan's ambition, it seemed to scare many members of the opposition. A tax hike in any form will clearly never be popular here (I don't know what else I expected), so taking steps to make it seem more reasonable would be key in regaining their trust. A smaller plan would have a hard time being called a "boondoggle". God I despise that word now. 

As for former Mayor Berry, my immense disappointment for her only grows. I don't know if her actions were the nail in the coffin for this plan, but they sure as hell didn't help. To put something this important on the line just so you can fulfill some fleeting sexual desire is shameful and shouldn't be forgotten soon. 

[MLBrumby]

Not necessarily the same things. Broadway and Church Streets have lots of traffic. A street roughly equidistant between them would have access to both. It's not "splitting the baby".  It's actually giving access to both. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Neigeville2 said:

A more reasonable approach would be to build starter lines in East Nashville and on Charlotte where people want it-perhaps have a referendum where only the people in those neighborhoods can vote.  Experience has shown that if it's at all successful, other neighborhoods will be clamoring for it soon enough.

Ahem.... are you suggesting a referendum where only a limited part of Davidson County would be able to vote a tax increase on all Davidson County residents? Not a workable solution. Now if Metro created a special district  and they choose to tax themselves to implement transit , no problem.

[MLBrumby]

1 minute ago, henburg said:

These are all really good points, I think that your note about crafting an incremented plan will be especially important going forward. While this board loved the plan's ambition, it seemed to scare many members of the opposition. A tax hike in any form will clearly never be popular here (I don't know what else I expected), so taking steps to make it seem more reasonable would be key in regaining their trust. A smaller plan would have a hard time being called a "boondoggle". God I despise that word now. 

As for former Mayor Berry, my immense disappointment for her only grows. I don't know if her actions were the nail in the coffin for this plan, but they sure as hell didn't help. To put something this important on the line just so you can fulfill some fleeting sexual desire is shameful and shouldn't be forgotten soon. 

Yes, Henburg! One of the reasons I really like my exchanges with this group (and I like all of your points) is b/c I have clients of both ends of the political spectrum. And to put it bluntly, I can't afford to jump in to any side of the pool with both feet. 

I have clients in TN, GA, and NC and AL. That's the reason I live in Chattanooga, although my policy focus is Healthcare, one would expect that every issue under the sun spills over into all other areas; the so-called "hot buttons" of the moment. Aside from the fact I am not a Davidson voter and for other reasons, I stayed relatively silent on this issue before today's vote. But now that it's done, I am really trying to help here... so that next time (IF!) perhaps the powers that be will do it better; more responsibly. BTW: I was not hired to consult on either side of this issue. 

I learned the hard way that hard politics takes a delicate touch. 

[Pdt2f]

I think the mistake Barry made that may have affected this vote was not necessarily her infidelities and corruption (although my thoughts on that are known and don’t need to be repeated), but the fact that she burned a lot of her bridges in the lower income black community with the Metro General Hospital fiasco. She lost a lot of their trust at that point, and it was bad form to propose billions for trains and tunnels right after trying to end in-patient services at a “last resort” hospital. 

[MLBrumby]

That's a good point. See my post above about my father in law. Local politics demands a lot of back scratching. 

[grilled_cheese]

[volsfanwill]

I did some quick math. My source is the official let's move Nashville docs. These numbers are in millions. 

Reduce the light rail to just Gallatin Pike, Charlotte and Northwest, keep the star improvements, and needed maintenance facilities, is Capital cost of $2343.

 Keep the enhancements to the exiusystem and add the rapid bus is capital cost of $991

So total Capital of $3334.     

This could be done without the 1% sales tax. Would still need some sales tax, maybe half or less. Keeping the other taxes. 

Just throwing out some numbers. 

 

Phase 2 would be the tunnel (which I do believe is needed), airport and Nolensville Pike lines. Current cost $2430.

[Pdt2f]

4 minutes ago, grilled_cheese said:

Kind of expected. Affluent liberal white areas supported, middle-to-lower class white and minority areas along with affluent conservative white areas didn’t. Wasn’t much support here in Madison, from what I can tell. The plan didn’t seem to do much for transit riders here: more frequent service but the addition of a connection to LRT south of Briley. Not sexy enough for the area to overcome the natural opposition of the Neely’s Bend bluehairs. 

I do find it slightly funny that after pushing for the lengthening of the Charlotte line to White Bridge from the original 440 stopping point, the council member there couldn’t even deliver his district. They voted against. 

[volsfanwill]

I asked notax4trax for their plan. I'll let you know if I get an answer. 

Edited May 2, 2018 by volsfanwill

[samsonh]

1 hour ago, nashville_bound said:

It is a joke...you know levity?

Your statement on what government is for is far too ambiguous for me to get onboard. Define 'doing', define 'best', define 'whole'. Lots of interpretations...may of them controversial.

As one of the original UP posters on the board I do not need to defend my contributions.... my opinions are well-informed and I would say very prescient. Feel free to agree or disagree. 

 

 

I appreciate that you care, sometimes sarcasm is not conveyed well via message board/text.

 

Ps we are both long time members.

[ariesjow]

14 minutes ago, grilled_cheese said:

Making my decision to focus on job opportunities outside of Nashville very easy. 

 

[NashvilleObserver]

2 hours ago, nashville_bound said:

Considering how solid (D) Davidson County is, I am surprised by the lopsided result - According to results tallied by NewsChannel 5, with 87 percent of precincts reporting, 63.8 percent of votes tallied as of 8:35 p.m. were cast against the plan, compared to 36.2 percent in favor. More than 116,000 votes have been tallied.

It does not bode well for Regional Mass Transit since the surrounding counties are more conservative politically.

If LEBANON can establish a commuter train to Nashville I doubt conservatism is a major factor...

[Pdt2f]

2 minutes ago, NashvilleObserver said:

If LEBANON can establish a commuter train to Nashville I doubt conservatism is a major factor...

Different political world 12 years ago. We had a Democratic governor and I believe the state legislature was democrat until around 2010, when it became basically impossible for social conservatism to exist in the Democratic Party. That being said, as much griping as I’ve heard from the suburbs about how this plan didn’t help them enough, maybe they’ll get serious about funding regional rail. 

[Guest]

 

 

 

[Nashhole]

On 4/30/2018 at 1:48 PM, Bos2Nash said:

Same opinion coming from this Boston native. 

It alludes to the point that with a driverless car you ride to work (or wherever you are going) and then send it off without having to park it. Not a literal "Driverless" car, but driverless in that the traditional commuter driver doesn't exist with those services. 

Driverless cars will absolutely help congestion as they become more widely adopted. Comparing them to cabs/lyft/uber misses the point. It's easily demonstrated that a machine is much better able to control its speed and flow than humans are, and that driverless cars--even when in the minority on the road--can help prevent shockwave traffic. I am pro-transit and was disappointed with tonight's results. But I think we should be aggressively pursuing all solutions. I've been disappointed to hear many pro-transit people speak anti-technology platitudes with regards to driverless cars because they think it is diametrically opposed to mass transit. 

 

As for the results tonight, it didn't really dawn on me until today how far back this vote may have pushed Nashville. We've now rejected two plans, one for being too conservative and one for being too ambitious. I never felt like this plan was perfect, but it's absolutely impossible for transit to be so. I understand there were legitimate arguments on both sides of the aisle, but it seemed like no matter what, there was no plan that could have pleased a lot of anti-transit people. I wish people took more time to think about what a massive waste in human productivity occurs in transportation. 10 minutes extra per workday spent in traffic is 40 hours a year--an entire extra workweek you throw away on nothing because there's a bottleneck at 65/40 which will never be fixed. 40 hours you could be producing for your job or spending time with your family. 

[rookzie]

13 hours ago, Binbin98 said:

I did enjoy this plan but I feel the next draft or plan should be less ambitious (meaning just create the first step of a larger transit plan). So basically that could be building two or three light rail lines in the next 7 years and then heavily investing in bus routes or BRT, or maybe investing in the Music city Star heavy rail instead of light rail. Basically a 'one step at a time' strategy when introducing plans I feel would be more welcoming to people, as taxes would be lower temporarily at least amongst other things that could be attractive to even conservative voters.

 

However I am dissapointed by the short-sightedness of those who voted against this plan. Although I couldn't care less whether or not Amazon comes to town (because Nashville seems to be doing perfectly fine without them already, especially now with Alliance Bernstein), a light rail line to the airport and at least within downtown would be very convenient and useful. Oh well, guess I won't take the transit in London for granted anymore lol  

I think the MCS thing is dead in the water, unless some additional corridor other than the proposed NW corridor (to Clarksville) can be prioritized, although it would be a very costly one, even without the RTA portion beyond the county corporation limits.

It seemed that the failed plan's proposed LRT (overhead electric) NW link to Ed Temple Blvd eventually would have been expanded into some form of DMU (diesel multiple unit) to serve the pre-proposed NW Corridor to Montgomery Cnty.  Any revised comprehensive county-wide proposal, in this case a Metro, always would need to include sizable coverage scope in areas more transit-dependent, including but not limited to North Nashville, but primarily the urban core.  Thing is, it would be all or nothing, in terms of LRT, because the work centers often tend to be areas which would be served by corridors other than the ones of residence.  So again, LRT likely would need elimination altogether, for a sizable change of buy-in consensus.
_____________________________________
In any case, it's a catch-22.  Long ago I posted a brief comment that previously defeated Houston LRT proposals were finally followed with a successful 1998 passing, resulting in commenced construction in 2001, of a 7.5-mile start-up segment, when the Houston Metro (transit) board (some members of which are appointed by mayors of member regional cities) voted to build that city's Main Street Line, in spite of Congressman Tom Delay’s killing federal funds for it.   For the next 9+ years, back-and-forth bickering and civic fighting over route alignments and threats again, this time by U.S. Congressman John Culberson (R-TX), to cut Federal funding led to the critical risk of endangering that district's relationship with the FTA, effectively withholding Federal Funding for the start-up development.   The transit agency board had to pare down the ambitious plan to a single rail start-up, in order to set the wheels rolling on any construction.   Then in 2003 Houston voters passed a massive referendum proposal based on the then-MPO policy of transit for the next 20 years, but that 2003 referendum ended up effectively as a truce rather than a voter consensus, with marginal regional political leadership in agreement barely sufficient to get it passed.   Such a tenuous coalition, which at best can mobilize voters but not funds, allowed the "dam to become imminently breached" and the transit efforts to become drenched by well organized and well funded anti-transit forces.

Political leaders historically have tended to view transit as a liability, while they seem to much more readily reach regional agreement on roadway improvements.   Until 2011, Houston Metro basically had to juggle, without Federal funding, pre-existing proportions of the local tax allocation to slowly fund its long promised network, an initiative which unsurprisingly underwent a sizable setback during the recession of  2008.   Likewise of no revelation, the  2012 referendum represented a repeated failure to garner the kind of consensus instrumental in boosting  the rate of transit transportation project implementation in Houston, which is not consolidated with containing Harris Cnty.   It must be noted that in 2003, Houston proper, which had been in position to apportion its resources for transit without the direct help of other jurisdictions within Harris Cnty, also had been in a much better standalone position to scrape and proceed from a start, than has Metro Nashville and Davidson Cnty, in part due to Houston's much higher population at the time of initial start-up construction in 2001, in time for the initial opening of its short Main Street line in 2004.  In 2009 under the same financial constraints, without Federal funding, Houston was able to forge forward and commence expansion, by incremental extension and start-up of two of its then-planned 4 routes.

Overall, Tennessee's combined state/municipal tax system captures a greater share of income from low- and middle-income people than from the wealthy, and this alone perhaps provided that coup de grâce to bludgeon to death the Metro Nashville Transit proposal by its contingency for funding.  Metro Nashville could stand to learn immensely from history of consortial arrangements and partnerships of other agencies and from those districts which have "been there and done that" in the relatively recent past, just as with a die-hard automobile-centric Houston.

Edited May 2, 2018 by rookzie

[markhollin]

While I am frustrated by the vote yesterday, it is clear that even though the population agrees there needs to be a solution to our traffic issue, they overwhelmingly said, "This ain't it."

What is curious to me is WHY so many of these folks were not involved in the literally HUNDREDS of public meetings that were held over the past several years.  If they had been, they would realize that dozens of options were thoroughly discussed and mulled over.  This plan was built around consensus from tens of thousands of people who attended these events and and made suggestions, looked at various proposals, and guided the powers that be on concepts that made the best sense out of what reasonable possibilities were available.  Then, once the finalized plans were put out, the vast majority of large businesses, the Chamber, universities, sports teams, council members, civic groups, etc. came out in favor of the plan as they saw that it offered some long term solutions.  These entities studied it, and backed it based on their research and what they felt best for their customers and constituents.

However, it is easier to say "no" to something that you don't fully understand because it either won't render an immediate positive effect for you personally and/or it will end up costing you hundreds of dollars a year (possibly thousands if you owned a business). Folks just didn't seem willing to invest in the future planning and daily flow of the populace in the county.  Lots of disinformation flowed, and ignorance among a large portion of the electorate reigned.  'Tis the bain of a democracy, I suppose.

So, now we're left with nothing, other than knowing that it is going to be quite difficult to find consensus on any sort of reasonable plan that truly addresses the core problems.  And whatever WILL be proposed over the  2, 5, or 10 years is going to, ultimately, be more expensive than this one as inflation continues to grow on the price of construction, materials, land purchases, etc. needed to create vibrant transit solutions.  

I will continue do what I can to assist in finding ways to help our transit challenges...but I have to be honest in saying that overcoming ignorance and varying degrees of selfishness are going to be the toughest parts of the battle.

A good summary of how/why the Transit Plan referendum failed by the Tennessean.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2018/05/01/nashville-transit-vote-davidson-county-mass-transit/564991002/

[nashwatcher]

Any guesses what the cost would be if BRT replaced light rail on all the corridors? 

Switch the plan to BRT, and convey the importance of mass transit for the future health of our city (environmentally, economically, spurs tax paying development, allows options for employees to get to their jobs, new business equals more tax revenue, etc etc)

[PaulChinetti]

After being disappointed by the Predators last night and my fellow Nashvillians. I look forward to all the "better"  plans that will now come out that we can all support. Am I missing any others?

NoTax4Trax

Better Transit for Nashville

Councilperson Robert Swope's plan

 

 

[grilled_cheese]

1 hour ago, nashwatcher said:

Any guesses what the cost would be if BRT replaced light rail on all the corridors? 

Switch the plan to BRT, and convey the importance of mass transit for the future health of our city (environmentally, economically, spurs tax paying development, allows options for employees to get to their jobs, new business equals more tax revenue, etc etc)

By the time it comes back around to be voted on?  Prob 10billion.

Remember when The Amp was going to only cost $175million and was going to get a ton of Fed money?

FiScAlLy CoNsErVaTiVe

[FluffyP13]

i would call this an extreme blow to our amazon headquarters shot as well as just being a general let down. 

[Dale]

8 hours ago, NashvilleObserver said:

If LEBANON can establish a commuter train to Nashville I doubt conservatism is a major factor...

When Democrats who wanted light rail have to reckon with the fact that Democrats didn't want it.