The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[12Mouth]

50 minutes ago, Neigeville2 said:

Short of dissolving metro and establishing a Nashville a little closer to pre-1963 boundaries I don't see any way to pass any dedicated funding source or anything that makes a serious improvement. 

That was actually my first thought when it was clear that this was going to fail. I think the political realities will make transit challenging, but not impossible. I have lots of friends who voted no on both sides of the aisle, all of whom said versions of the same thing: too expensive and not enough incorperation of future technology. 

I do wonder about starting with specific transit taxes on districts to fund lines that benefit them: Vandy, Belmont, East Nashville, Music Row, 12South, Hillsboro Village, Melrose, Wedgewood Houston, Downtown, Germantown. They would all vote yes. You’d have to do the math on what you would get, but I imagine those same taxes applied only in those areas would generate a good deal of money.

 

[jmtunafish]

45 minutes ago, 12Mouth said:

I do wonder about starting with specific transit taxes on districts to fund lines that benefit them: Vandy, Belmont, East Nashville, Music Row, 12South, Hillsboro Village, Melrose, Wedgewood Houston, Downtown, Germantown. They would all vote yes. You’d have to do the math on what you would get, but I imagine those same taxes applied only in those areas would generate a good deal of money.

 

Seriously, is there a way that those who live in the precincts that approved the referendum could vote for a tax hike that applies just to them, in exchange for light rail that exists just in those precincts?  Nashville could still have a decent network that covers just downtown and immediately surrounding neighborhoods.  I think it would be a step in the right direction, certainly something to build on as the rest of the county becomes more densely developed and--hopefully--more open to better mass transit.

Edited May 3, 2018 by jmtunafish

[KJHburg]

This is my thoughts from Charlotte on your transit vote.  When I first saw your plan I was wow that is very ambitious.  I think you should have had a smaller plan first with fewer lines to gain people trust and show them how it could work for the betterment of the city.  I don't claim to know your city's politics but it sounds like a consensus was never made with all the varying groups of residents.  Charlotte's first line of about 10 miles opened in 2007 and our most recent extension to now a total of about  20 miles just opened this March in 2018, a full 11 years later.  Our buildout is going very slow too slow for some but progress is being made.  People here in Charlotte have talked about a grand plan to do 3 lines at once but I am not sure how they would work out with the voters if more tax increases are required.  I kept hearing Nashville compared its plan to Denver's a much larger city and I remember even posting on this thread long ago you should look to Charlotte a city more your size and how we did it.     Going forward you will have a more scaled back plan with everyone or more people buying into it .  Anyway people in Austin are concerned about their plans now too.   https://www.bizjournals.com/austin/news/2018/05/02/austin-transit-advocates-watch-in-horror-as.html?ana=e_ae_set1&s=article_du&ed=2018-05-02&u=oAaDx%2B74FoP4qOJ%2By4AU6dhJPpc&t=1525307980&j=81361901

[Neigeville2]

2 hours ago, 12Mouth said:

That was actually my first thought when it was clear that this was going to fail. I think the political realities will make transit challenging, but not impossible. I have lots of friends who voted no on both sides of the aisle, all of whom said versions of the same thing: too expensive and not enough incorperation of future technology. 

I do wonder about starting with specific transit taxes on districts to fund lines that benefit them: Vandy, Belmont, East Nashville, Music Row, 12South, Hillsboro Village, Melrose, Wedgewood Houston, Downtown, Germantown. They would all vote yes. You’d have to do the math on what you would get, but I imagine those same taxes applied only in those areas would generate a good deal of money.

 

You could also get buy-in from large players like Vanderbilt, River North, Nashville Yards, etc. to build the stations in their areas.  Developers have paid for transit stations in other cities.

[rookzie]

On 5/2/2018 at 4:15 PM, PruneTracy said:

Well...

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2017/10/31/nashville-has-allocated-60-million-sidewalks-what-has-city-accomplished/801154001/

The problem is that it's not as simple as paving a new sidewalk. Many of these roadways have deficient stormwater infrastructure, or none at all, which has to be  replaced (with its replacement designed and approved by Metro Water Services) at the same time as the sidewalk is installed. For the stormwater infrastructure to be installed, several underground utilities (not all owned by Metro, e.g., Piedmont Natural Gas) have to be moved from the edge of the roadway where they are often placed. Then comes the issue of what's above ground. Is there sufficient right-of-way or does it need to be purchased? How many utility poles are in the way and where will they be moved? What about fences, mailboxes, driveways, etc.? As noted in the article, it is like a miniature roadway project, with all the same hoops to jump through.

...And in some cases, they've done a piss-poor job of even that.

Where I frequent Belmont Blvd. between Woodmont Blvd. at the north and then southward toward Lipscomb Univ., during the previous two calendar decades, a sidewalk was added on the west side of Belmont from Woodmont and south to Graybar Ln., a distance of about 2 city blocks.  It was constructed without any storm drains along its extent, and run-off from the south side of Woodmont drains via open roadside ditches and culverts downhill from Benham Rd to the SW corner of the intersection with Belmont, where the problematic Belmont sidewalk begins ─ a draining distance of about 4 tenths of a mile (5 blocks) .  All that drainage is above grade of the approached sidewalk, with the result that the sidewalk acts as a levy and deflects all that runoff directly onto the surface of Belmont, southward.  During the cold seasons this has created an ice hazard along that 2-block stretch of Belmont, as that water typically flows along and covers the entire southbound lane of Belmont, in part because of the existing grading of the pavement slightly sloping from curbside and because of the absence of drains.   This has resulted in a countless number of spin-outs, a condition of which Pubic Works has been made aware of more than once during the previous 10 years, and for which the short-term solution work-around has been only to dispatch a salt truck spreader on call demand.  Run-off might drain and foul the Belmont pavement for as long as a day following the end of any falling precipitation.

While this issue may appear insignificant compared to the thousands of other priorities, it nonetheless exemplifies the oversight disconnect with managing interrelated elements of infrastructure improvements, piece-meal.  A sidewalk of even that proportion never should have been approved and constructed, without first handling the conveyance of all that run-off.  Basically a solution to one issue has resulted in unending and unintended consequences with the creation of another.  To have left  the pre-existing daylight roadside ditches along Belmont would have eliminated this ongoing hazard.

Edited May 4, 2018 by rookzie

[Pdt2f]

2 minutes ago, rookzie said:

...And in some cases, they've done a piss-poor job of even that.

Where I frequent, Belmont Blvd. between Woodmont Blvd. at the north and toward Lipscomb Univ., during the previous two calendar decades, a sidewalk was added on the west side of Belmont from Woodmont and south to Graybar Ln., a distance of about 2 city blocks.  It was constructed without any storm drains along its extent, and run-off from the south side of Woodmont drains via open roadside ditches and culverts downhill from Benham Rd to the SW corner of the intersection with Belmont, where the problematic Belmont sidewalk begins ─ a draining distance of about 4 tenths of a mile (5 blocks) .  All that drainage is above grade of the approached sidewalk, with the result that the sidewalk acts as a levy and deflects all that runoff directly onto the surface of Belmont, southward.  During the cold seasons this has created an ice hazard along that 2-block stretch of Belmont, as that water typically flows along and covers the entire southbound lane of Belmont, in part because of the existing grading of the pavement slightly sloping from curbside and because of the absence of drains.   This has resulted in a countless number of spin-outs, a condition of which Pubic Works has been made aware of more than once during the previous 10 years, and for which the short-term solution work-around has been only to dispatch a salt truck spreader on call demand.  Run-off might drain and foul the Belmont pavement for as long as a day following the end of any falling precipitation.

While this issue may appear insignificant compared to the thousands of other priorities, it nonetheless exemplifies the oversight disconnect with managing interrelated elements of infrastructure improvements, piece-meal.  A sidewalk of of even that proportion never should have been approved and constructed, without first handling the conveyance of all that run-off.  Basically a solution to one issue has created unending and unintended consequences with the creation of another.  To have left  the pre-existing daylight roadside ditches along Belmont would have eliminated this ongoing hazard.

That stretch is dangerous even in the rain. I’ve been on that road where in a short, heavy downpour the water rose so high on the street that it covered the sidewalks, and cars kept curbing out because they couldn’t see the sidewalks through the water. Not a very well designed stretch. 

[grilled_cheese]

5 hours ago, Neigeville2 said:

I guess you're kidding

Nope

 

4 hours ago, nashville_bound said:

^ It did not take this board long to go from touting Polls showing mad support for the plan, to utter defeat, to now.... what? Wishing Nashville politicos were as corrupt and vindictive as the worst of Chicago? Actually seeking retribution? Very telling .... SMDH 

Just talking about exercising my right to vote.  Nothing more.  No need to get upset.

[Tennessine]

6 minutes ago, grilled_cheese said:

Nope

 

Just talking about exercising my right to vote.  Nothing more.  No need to get upset.

Pouting won't get you anywhere

[Binbin98]

What I keep hearing in various forums is that this failure of this specific transit referendum will deter businesses away from Nashville, however at least in the near future I don't think this is entirely true. I believe businesses and people will in fact keep on moving here and maybe even moreso now that taxes won't be any more higher, and the traffic will just get worse and worse.

[e-dub]

7 hours ago, nativetenn said:

Pouting won't get you anywhere

As a general rule, any posts made on a forum won't get you anywhere. I lived in Knoxville and hated it more than I can explain. Posting about it on the internet didn't get me to leave that place, but it sure did give me a way to get my frustrations out.

[smeagolsfree]

 

3 hours ago, Binbin98 said:

What I keep hearing in various forums is that this failure of this specific transit referendum will deter businesses away from Nashville, however at least in the near future I don't think this is entirely true. I believe businesses and people will in fact keep on moving here and maybe even moreso now that taxes won't be any more higher, and the traffic will just get worse and worse.

Again I will use Austin as an example. Businesses continue to grow, expand and move to Austin with no viable plan either. Last thing I can find is that 158people per day are moving to Austin. 

Charlotte is adding around 110  people a day with a transit system.

The numbers vary for Nashville from a high of about 106 a day in2016 to somewhere between 84 and 96 a day now.

I do agree traffic will get a whole lot worse. Just a few years ago, there were rarely backups due to volume on I 65 S through town. Now there is a volume delay just about all day long and it is bumper to bumper. Transit will do little to fix this because the majority of traffic is thru traffic from what I can see. A lot of trucks and out of state cars.

 

Part of the problem is the State of TN is doing nothing to fix this. 

Possible solutions there could be using the Smartway truck system to fine driver with a local bill of lading from going through the inner loops of Nashville. If they are thru traffic they would have to use Briley and 840.

If Briley is used, then they would need to increase the lanes on Briley on the west side to match Briley on the east and upgrade it to interstate status, but all the interchanges would have to be redesigned, but the bridges have been raised to the correct height.

To fix the interstate loop around downtown is something that seemingly state leaders have little desire to do. That would be years of construction and disruption.  I could go into more detail but it would turn political, so i will stay away from that. 

 

[Dale]

I know I sound like a broken record, but taken Austin. In 2014, light rail was crushed.

And Austin is the fastest growing city in the nation.

[PaulChinetti]

5 minutes ago, Dale said:

I know I sound like a broken record, but taken Austin. In 2014, light rail was crushed.

And Austin is the fastest growing city in the nation.

I'm not disputing how fast any city is growing.

But the biggest complaint you constantly hear about Austin is the traffic is HORRENDOUS.

 

Seems similar to Nashville, the citizens would rather complain about the traffic than do anything about it.

[Dale]

17 minutes ago, PaulChinetti said:

I'm not disputing how fast any city is growing.

But the biggest complaint you constantly hear about Austin is the traffic is HORRENDOUS.

 

Seems similar to Nashville, the citizens would rather complain about the traffic than do anything about it.

And my contention throughout is that congestion (and lack of light rail) is clearly not a knockout for prestigious corporations and hip, young adults. Indeed, they are descending on those sorts of cities, witness Austin, Nashville, Tampa, etc.

[smeagolsfree]

46 minutes ago, Dale said:

I know I sound like a broken record, but taken Austin. In 2014, light rail was crushed.

And Austin is the fastest growing city in the nation.

New plan up for a vote.

[urbanplanet17]

4 hours ago, Binbin98 said:

What I keep hearing in various forums is that this failure of this specific transit referendum will deter businesses away from Nashville, however at least in the near future I don't think this is entirely true. I believe businesses and people will in fact keep on moving here and maybe even moreso now that taxes won't be any more higher, and the traffic will just get worse and worse.

Atlanta's limited transit scope hasn't stopped its growth since MARTA was built in the 1970s, 5 million more people later and another 2.5 million expected over the next 2 decades (*without* Amazon HQ2).

Edited May 3, 2018 by urbanplanet17

[Dale]

1 minute ago, smeagolsfree said:

New plan up for a vote.

Yep, possibly as early as Nov 2020.

Interestingly, commuter rail expansion appears to be moving forward, evidently to paid for out of city coffers.

1 minute ago, urbanplanet17 said:

Atlanta's limited transit scope hasn't stooped it's growth since MARTA was built in the 1970s, 5 million more people later and another 2.5 million expected over the next 2 decades, *without* Amazon HQ2).

Yes, and for a city of its size and stature, rail transit is extremely limited, Houston even moreso.

[samsonh]

26 minutes ago, Dale said:

Yep, possibly as early as Nov 2020.

Interestingly, commuter rail expansion appears to be moving forward, evidently to paid for out of city coffers.

Yes, and for a city of its size and stature, rail transit is extremely limited, Houston even moreso.

Dale,

I understand you hate taxes and government spending. But as density increases you are going to see mass transit. All the technology in the world will not fix congestion. Also, in my experience people in Houston want to use the rail but it needs to be expanded. I have no experience with Atlanta and cannot comment there. Everyone I know loves mass transit, but it has to be distributed widely. Traffic will get much worse in Nashville, and then we will do something. 

[MagicPotato]

We should definitely start small. 

Edited May 3, 2018 by MagicPotato

[Dale]

11 minutes ago, samsonh said:

Dale,

I understand you hate taxes and government spending. But as density increases you are going to see mass transit. All the technology in the world will not fix congestion. Also, in my experience people in Houston want to use the rail but it needs to be expanded. I have no experience with Atlanta and cannot comment there. Everyone I know loves mass transit, but it has to be distributed widely. Traffic will get much worse in Nashville, and then we will do something. 

Look, I like trains. But light rail has become an urbanist fetish. Honolulu's gazillion dollar rail system has reduced congestion 1%. ONE PER CENT.

[Armacing]

Can you provide an example of an "unreasonably large single family home"?  I don't need a picture, just an address so I can go look at it on Google Street View.  I'm curious to see what one looks like.... thanks in advance!

[Guest]

Anecdotal, but I know almost no one who actually 'loves' mass transit. That is actually a weird statement. Mass transit (busses, BRT, light-rail/subway) serves an important, but very utilitarian function in niche communities. We live in DC almost half-the year and when I choose to use the metro it is a hold-your-nose moment and get through the ordeal....the faces on most of my fellow commuters tell the same story.
Likewise, when I or my sons use Nashville's bus service...which is quite often.



New post below (the system combined my posts and muddied the waters).

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

A big part of your solution was killed by environmentalists decrying the north route of 840.

 

2 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

 

Again I will use Austin as an example. Businesses continue to grow, expand and move to Austin with no viable plan either. Last thing I can find is that 158people per day are moving to Austin. 

Charlotte is adding around 110  people a day with a transit system.

The numbers vary for Nashville from a high of about 106 a day in2016 to somewhere between 84 and 96 a day now.

I do agree traffic will get a whole lot worse. Just a few years ago, there were rarely backups due to volume on I 65 S through town. Now there is a volume delay just about all day long and it is bumper to bumper. Transit will do little to fix this because the majority of traffic is thru traffic from what I can see. A lot of trucks and out of state cars.

 

Part of the problem is the State of TN is doing nothing to fix this. 

Possible solutions there could be using the Smartway truck system to fine driver with a local bill of lading from going through the inner loops of Nashville. If they are thru traffic they would have to use Briley and 840.

If Briley is used, then they would need to increase the lanes on Briley on the west side to match Briley on the east and upgrade it to interstate status, but all the interchanges would have to be redesigned, but the bridges have been raised to the correct height.

To fix the interstate loop around downtown is something that seemingly state leaders have little desire to do. That would be years of construction and disruption.  I could go into more detail but it would turn political, so i will stay away from that. 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Guest

[TheRaglander]

Just curious... if the transit plan would have passed, how (if at all) would that affect any "massive" tax proposals for the future?  We all know that a new stadium for the Titans is around the corner.  That PSC property... would re-purposing that site require tax dollars of some sort?  Upgrades to Bridgestone arena, MLS stadium, tax incentives to future HQ re-locations, gulch pedestrian bridge... and whatever else I am not thinking of.   What if a MLB team wants to re-locate here?

Don't get me wrong.  I am not arguing "priorities".  I am just curious as to how taxed out this city would be with other big tax projects that may be coming up as well.

[samsonh]

8 minutes ago, nashville_bound said:

Anecdotal, but I know almost no one who actually 'loves' mass transit. That is actually a weird statement. Mass transit (busses, BRT, light-rail/subway) serves an important, but very utilitarian function in niche communities. We live in DC almost half-the year and when I choose to use the metro it is a hold-your-nose moment and get through the ordeal....the faces on most of my fellow commuters tells the same story.
Likewise, when I or my sons use Nashville's bus service...which is quite often.

A big part of your solution was killed by environmentalists decrying the north route of 840.

 

 

How is loving not having to drive a weird thing. Studies show that on average happiness is inversely correlated with length of commute. I would rather spend my time reading or working than paying attention to other drivers. Fwiw I greatly enjoy using the mass transit in DC. Its convenient, clean, and on time. Transit by it's very nature is utilitarian, would you not agree? Very few of the overall miles driven are for pure leisure drives. 

 

As an aside I drive across our fair state for work a few times a year. Very few of my fellow interstate drivers are all smiles. So not sure what the comment about commuters' faces is supposed to mean. 

Edited May 3, 2018 by samsonh

[Dale]

And since Charlotte is posited as the fast-growth city that HAS rail transit, it's two light rail lines and two streetcar lines are probably convenient to 1% of the population. Affordability drove where I decided to live. That, and the 'feel' of the area. To reach the closest light rail station by bus would take at least an hour. To reach the CBD entirely by public transit would take at least an hour and 40 minutes.

In my world, the light rail is an attraction. Took my son and girlfriend on it last time they were up from Tampa.