The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[Guest]

Like most activities, transit is just a cost/benefit calculation. 45 minutes sitting traffic or 45 minutes in a hot, smelling subway car pressed up against strangers .... not a 'love' moment either way (if you are lucky) ha...

I will allow there are time when riding a Prague tram on a dummy fall afternoon that mass transit is more 'fun. You must in turn allow driving a nice sports car on 'the dragon' in East Tennessee is also more 'fun'.  Generally both modes are getting from point a to point b, nothing more.

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I am referring to the morbid look on the faces of the DC metro riders I had previously mentioned.

8 minutes ago, samsonh said:

As an aside I drive across our fair state for work a few times a year. Very few of my fellow interstate drivers are all smiles. So not sure what the comment about commuters' faces is supposed to mean. 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Guest

[samsonh]

12 minutes ago, Dale said:

And since Charlotte is posited as the fast-growth city that HAS rail transit, it's two light rail lines and two streetcar lines are probably convenient to 1% of the population. Affordability drove where I decided to live. That, and the 'feel' of the area. To reach the closest light rail station by bus would take at least an hour. To reach the CBD entirely by public transit would take at least an hour and 40 minutes.

In my world, the light rail is an attraction. Took my son and girlfriend on it last time they were up from Tampa.

The one person I know in Charlotte comments that development is booming at rail stops. Anecdotes are fun!

[Guest]

Of course it is no anecdote to state the development is booming in Nashville ... even without transit.

[e-dub]

The Tail of the Dragon isn't a fun drive anymore,  there's too much congestion.

 

It's a decent way to get to the Cherohala Skyway, though.

[Guest]

The dragon is okay early, before the congestion, but yes, the Cherohala Skyway is now better. 

[Rockatansky]

2 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

84 and 96 a day now

To be clear, this is total growth for the MSA, not just people moving to Davidson County.

[Dale]

8 minutes ago, samsonh said:

The one person I know in Charlotte comments that development is booming at rail stops. Anecdotes are fun!

Moving the goalposts ? Nobody denies that rail lines tend to generate development ... along the lines.  Heck, a new highway generates development. That said, Charlotte leaders are mystified as to why the streetcar lines are generating the promised development.

[e-dub]

The Skyway is fantastic. For pure driving insanity, tn32 is worth a look. My car (that I don't drive when given the option ) is a manual and having to constantly change between 1st and 2nd is exhilarating. 30 miles an hour on that road takes nerves of steel, as there's a full on drop off on one side of the twisty bits. The asphalt is brand new, too.

 

[PruneTracy]

13 hours ago, jmtunafish said:

Seriously, is there a way that those who live in the precincts that approved the referendum could vote for a tax hike that applies just to them, in exchange for light rail that exists just in those precincts?  Nashville could still have a decent network that covers just downtown and immediately surrounding neighborhoods.  I think it would be a step in the right direction, certainly something to build on as the rest of the county becomes more densely developed and--hopefully--more open to better mass transit.

The most straightforward way would be TIF. Metro already has a few of these arrangements, such as in the Gulch, for other services. The property taxes generated from the property value increase of residences and businesses within walking distance of a given transit line go towards paying off that line.

The problem is that this would require a minimum tax base, i.e., a minimum density / minimum property value, for the plan to break even. There are few, if any, corridors in Nashville that would meet this minimum. West End, perhaps, but we've seen how that went with the Amp.

The TIF scheme ends up in the same boat as user fees. Most of the transit systems being built around the country are not demand-driven, at least by a level sufficient to actually support them financially. That's why they end up being funded by broad-based taxes, as was proposed by Let's Move Nashville. Metro needed the entire tax base of the county to fund the plan, not just the areas receiving the largest investments.

[BnaBreaker]

1 hour ago, Dale said:

Look, I like trains. But light rail has become an urbanist fetish. Honolulu's gazillion dollar rail system has reduced congestion 1%. ONE PER CENT.

Because making driving easier for suburbanites by reducing traffic isn't the purpose of mass transit.  I don't mean to be short with you my friend, but honestly, how often does this need to be repeated? 

[smeagolsfree]

53 minutes ago, Armacing said:

Can you provide an example of an "unreasonably large single family home"?  I don't need a picture, just an address so I can go look at it on Google Street View.  I'm curious to see what one looks like.... thanks in advance!

Not sure who the comment was directed to, but there are a lot of homes in the Metro that are what we call McMansions. Here is a link to Bing maps that will show a few on Franklin Road in Brentwood, That was the easiest example for me off the bat, but there are 100's of not 1000's of homes like this. Not just limited to the Nashville area but all across the nation. It looks as if you are posting from outside the U.S.A.

 

https://www.bing.com/search?q=franklin+road+brentwood+tn&form=EDNTHT&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&refig=6c218cdd9f264715b972e967dd4e1021&PC=DCTE&sp=1&ghc=1&qs=AS&pq=franklin+road+brentwood&sc=7-23&cvid=6c218cdd9f264715b972e967dd4e1021&cc=US&setlang=en-US

 

16 minutes ago, Rockatansky said:

To be clear, this is total growth for the MSA, not just people moving to Davidson County.

True and that goes for Charlotte and Austin as well.

[BnaBreaker]

57 minutes ago, nashville_bound said:

Anecdotal, but I know almost no one who actually 'loves' mass transit. That is actually a weird statement. Mass transit (busses, BRT, light-rail/subway) serves an important, but very utilitarian function in niche communities. We live in DC almost half-the year and when I choose to use the metro it is a hold-your-nose moment and get through the ordeal....the faces on most of my fellow commuters tell the same story.

I mean, the experience of using mass transit is just sitting in a moving chair (or standing near one) haha, so in that sense, no, the thought of using mass transit doesn't fill me with thrills.  However, I DO love having an efficient and convenient mass transit system at my disposal.  I'm sure that's what @samsonh was referring to.

Edited May 3, 2018 by BnaBreaker

[PaulChinetti]

1 hour ago, nashville_bound said:

Anecdotal, but I know almost no one who actually 'loves' mass transit. That is actually a weird statement.

I don't think it's weird at all. There are tons of things that we all pay for that we don't love but are super essential. It's one of those grin and bear it things. 

@PruneTracy What does TIF stand for? 

 

 

[samsonh]

12 minutes ago, PaulChinetti said:

I don't think it's weird at all. There are tons of things that we all pay for that we don't love but are super essential. It's one of those grin and bear it things. 

@PruneTracy What does TIF stand for? 

 

 

Tax Increment Financing

[Bos2Nash]

1 hour ago, nashville_bound said:

Like most activities, transit is just a cost/benefit calculation. 45 minutes sitting traffic or 45 minutes in a hot, smelling subway car pressed up against strangers .... not a 'love' moment either way (if you are lucky) ha...

I will allow there are time when riding a Prague tram on a dummy fall afternoon that mass transit is more 'fun. 

45 minutes of sitting in traffic - of annoying, stupid drivers that are in a hurry to go no where fast - OR - 30/45 mimutes in a packed subway car where I'm not yet fully awake yet I don't have to worry about drivers running into me, drivers texting and not paying attention, general frustration with rubberneckers because of drivers not paying attention and causing accidents.  Definitely not love, thats for damn sure haha, but the option should be there.

I would say almost any train ride in Europe will put the US to shame... Where there are trains (damn you Ireland and really only liking buses lol)

[Pdt2f]

41 minutes ago, BnaBreaker said:

Because making driving easier for suburbanites by reducing traffic isn't the purpose of mass transit.  I don't mean to be short with you my friend, but honestly, how often does this need to be repeated? 

I was kind of annoyed by the For Transit advertising that promoted “no more gridlock.” It was such an easily refutable claim to make it like the keystone of their argument. There are so many better arguments for transit. 

One of the things that I think Pro Transiters didn’t do a very good job of, and from looking at the electoral map from Tuesday this seems true, is convincing those who lived away from the core why this plan benefits them. Some may call this selfish, but look at it from the point of view of someone who lives in a working class area like Hermitage, Bellevue, Antioch, or Madison. Your taxes will go up for what amounts, in those areas, to a little more frequency; maybe a crosstown route that you may or may not use; and maybe a ‘transit center’ with bike racks and ride share pickup lanes (not many bicyclists or Uber users in Madison...). A place with much more wealthy citizens who will pay the exact same tax increases gets tunnels, trains, much more frequency, and much quicker transfers. And that doesn’t even factor in what would happen if transit was a success: property tax increases, rent increases, cost of living increases; all of which your average resident in midtown or Hillsboro village are able to handle better than your average $20,000 a year renter in Madison or Bordeaux. 

I don’t know the solution to this, but perhaps an additional tax on the residents of the core who will benefit the most would go a long way to showing that it is a fair plan. Just my two cents, from a disappointed transit supporter who is trying to find a way forward. 

[PaulChinetti]

I'm always impressed with the length of the bike lane that runs through Madison on Gallatin, I thought that was pretty forward looking for an area that I wouldn't think that would do. I often think how that got put in, council person pushing for it? The residents?

 

[KJHburg]

An article about the transit vote from CityLab

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/05/what-went-wrong-with-nashvilles-transit-plan/559436/

In terms of Charlotte, yes massive apartment and residential construction along the light rail both the existing line from 2007 and the most recent addition.  A huge percentage of our multifamily construction in the city is along the light rail. Now for sale multifamily is following it.   The latest trend is office development that is touting how many blocks they are from the light rail.  The LYNX has changed development patterns for sure in this city.  You can look at google maps and see all the construction sites along the line or better yet drive over from TN and see for yourself.  

[Dale]

2 hours ago, BnaBreaker said:

Because making driving easier for suburbanites by reducing traffic isn't the purpose of mass transit.  I don't mean to be short with you my friend, but honestly, how often does this need to be repeated? 

Why not my transit ? Why your transit ?

[Dale]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

An article about the transit vote from CityLab

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/05/what-went-wrong-with-nashvilles-transit-plan/559436/

In terms of Charlotte, yes massive apartment and residential construction along the light rail both the existing line from 2007 and the most recent addition.  A huge percentage of our multifamily construction in the city is along the light rail. Now for sale multifamily is following it.   The latest trend is office development that is touting how many blocks they are from the light rail.  The LYNX has changed development patterns for sure in this city.  You can look at google maps and see all the construction sites along the line or better yet drive over from TN and see for yourself.  

I scoff at the last assertion by the author, "Nashville residents may enjoy its current it-city status. But Nashville voters just slammed on the brakes.

This isn't going to dim Nashville's luster one little bit. Indeed, watch it boom as never before. And not because transit was crushed, but because the world of people and firms stampeding to Nashville clearly don't regard Nashville's meager rail network as a knockout. Indeed, many if not most likely regard Nashville as being easier to get around than the better rail-served cities they're abandoning.

[AronG]

47 minutes ago, Dale said:

Why not my transit ? Why your transit ?

This isn't a mine vs. yours thing, it's just math. There's nowhere in Williamson/Rutherford/etc. where you can place stations that are within a few blocks of hundreds or thousands of residents. And you can't build a transit system where all the stations are giant parking lots. Park and ride stations are dead weight on a transit system. They're one-way: nobody transits to them, only from them.

Edited May 3, 2018 by AronG

[AronG]

3 hours ago, nashville_bound said:

Anecdotal, but I know almost no one who actually 'loves' mass transit. That is actually a weird statement.

You just run in the wrong circles, man. Here's a hilarious transit enthusiast facebook group (with 78K members): https://www.facebook.com/groups/whatwouldjanejacobsdo/. That's just one I'm sure there are others.

Transit is awesome. Just like people here can fall down a rabbit hole discussing different forms of giant interstate intersections or whatever, it's a topic of fascinating logistical and geometric complexity. And unlike massive cloverleafs or 7-lane diverging diamonds or whatever, good transit systems are a key ingredient in every single one of the most amazing, pleasant, livable urbanized areas in the world.

[Will]

2 hours ago, Pdt2f said:

I don’t know the solution to this, but perhaps an additional tax on the residents of the core who will benefit the most would go a long way to showing that it is a fair plan. Just my two cents, from a disappointed transit supporter who is trying to find a way forward. 

We already have the Urban Services District tax. 

[AronG]

42 minutes ago, Dale said:

I scoff at the last assertion by the author, "Nashville residents may enjoy its current it-city status. But Nashville voters just slammed on the brakes.

This isn't going to dim Nashville's luster one little bit. Indeed, watch it boom as never before. And not because transit was crushed, but because the world of people and firms stampeding to Nashville clearly don't regard Nashville's meager rail network as a knockout. Indeed, many if not most likely regard Nashville as being easier to get around than the better rail-served cities they're abandoning.

Yeah slammed on the brakes is overly dramatic, but many employers have made it clear that they are most definitely including quality of transit as part of their criteria. Amazon is just the biggest example. Just look at the number of downtown employers that lobbied hard and donated money towards this effort.

We will lose companies that care about this to cities that are making a real effort (Charlotte, for example). I'd agree it isn't a huge factor yet (our traffic isn't really that bad) but it's going to get more important every year. And the lead time on significant transit systems is large.

[Nathan_in_DC]

4 hours ago, nashville_bound said:

 

I am referring to the morbid look on the faces of the DC metro riders I had previously mentioned.

As a morbid DC metro rider, if I'm coming or going into downtown any time during or near business hours, the metro is immensely more appealing, not to mention safer, than dealing with I66 or I395.