The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[Guest]

Despite all the hand-wringing since the transit referendum loss, I believe Nashville likely dodged a fiscal bullet. This article detailing the DC Metro malfeasance offers great insight into what 'might have been'...at least to a smaller extent.

 

Quote

Political supporters of the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority have slipped a tax increase into the District’s budget that would make even the most brazen robber baron blush.

The troubled transit system has been pushing local governments to hike its subsidies — already totaling $1.8 billion and accounting for 55 percent of the operating budget — by $500 million.

It is a lot of additional money to throw at a rail system whose average weekday ridership has declined by nearly 140,000 (almost 20 percent) since its peak in 2008, a remarkable feat given that the area’s population has grown by roughly 10 percent in that time.

But the real rub is who gets stuck with the bill: Metro’s competition. The plan would increase D.C.’s tax on ride-hailing services from 1 percent to 4.75 percent. Nearly quintupling the city’s tax on ride-hailing services will have the obvious effect of driving prices up for customers, punishing them for choosing a product more to their liking.

Yet that’s how D.C. Mayor Muriel E. Bowser (D) and WMATA Board Chairman and D.C. Council member Jack Evans (D-Ward 2) proposed to raise a portion of D.C.’s “share” — $178.5 million — of the $500 million in new subsidies Metro craves. The council and mayor already approved their annual $178.5 million contribution for Metro, but the taxes that will ultimately serve as its source must be authorized through the District’s budget process.

It is no wonder that Metro would want to hammer the competition with tax hikes. Ride-hailing services have contributed to Metro’s drastic decline in ridership, albeit in a relatively small way. And customers increasingly turn to the apps when Metro leaves them stranded. In some cases, Metro service disruptions have increased demand for ride-hailing services by as much as 25 percent.

But the tax adds insult to injury: It makes taxpayers prop up a service they do not want while making it more expensive for them to use preferred alternatives. The logic is clear: If it moves better than Metro, tax it.

If It Works Better that Metro - Tax It

Edited May 7, 2018 by Guest

[smeagolsfree]

On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 4:42 PM, Dale said:

Can't rule out: just the feel of a city. Nashville has a "buzz" that other cities its size just can't match. Transit is way down the list. Any city which appeals is going to be congested, because victim of its own success.

Dale, you hit the nail on the head. There are leaders from various cities across the country coming here trying one thing or another to emulate the success here. The key thing about Nashville is we have a brand and if you don't have a brand that is known worldwide, then it will be hard to duplicate.

Memphis could do the same thing as they have a brand and NOLA has as well as Las Vegas. But a city like Louisville will have a problem because their most recognizable brand only happens once a year with the KY Derby. Sure they have the Louisville Slugger Museum and Mohamed Ali, but Baseball is pretty much an American thing and it was not invented in Louisville. There are a lot of folks around the world that do not even know who Mohamed Ali was, now that he has passed. Boxing does not have the allure it once did. I digress.

Many cities have to solve their own issues especially with racial tensions in order to overcome this. Cities like St Louis and Cincinnati, Baltimore and Detroit. Unfortunately that is what some of these cities are know for across the oceans. 

It only takes a few bad apples to ruin and tarnish a cities reputation. We have to be careful here after the shootings at Waffle House and Opry Mills. There will be a number of folks that say "I am not going to Nashville, because it is too dangerous".

 

Well you guys know me, I can ramble on all day and get off on rabbit trails. Sorry.

[Tennessine]

1 hour ago, Bos2Nash said:

In my process of moving down here, I made sure that any building I looked at had bike parking and was pleasantly surprised by the amount these buildings were accounting for bikes. Unfortunately, I am one of those a--holes that use the sidewalks here and there as a result of not feeling totally safe on the streets. Cool website that my Boston architecture forum directed me to that ranks cities around the country (among other initiatives) on a scale of 1-5. Sad to say, Nashville does not rank amazingly, but a reality check shows that the best in the country is only a 3.5. But with every criticism is a basis for improvement. Similar to the overall transit discussion, having a framework to improve and work off of is important.

Interesting to see that Memphis had the best rating in the state. What brings its rating up so much is the "Acceleration" category, which indicates how quickly a city is improving its transportation infrastructure. Memphis ranks second in the country in this category (!!!!) . I was unaware they were making drastic changes to current infrastructure there.

Edited May 7, 2018 by nativetenn

[Bos2Nash]

4 hours ago, markhollin said:

Bird, the ride sharing electric scooter service, officially launched in Nashville on Monday in downtown and its nearest neighborhoods.

The initial fleet includes 100 scooters in downtown, the Gulch, Music Row, Midtown, Germantown and East Nashville.

Bird pitches its service as a "last mile" solution to commutes, or for trips that are too far to walk.

Bird does use docks, so users can park their scooters at the end of their ride. At the end of the day, the scooters are collected and returned to their nests to recharge. Riders use the scooters in bike lanes.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/money/2018/05/07/nashville-gets-bird-scooter-sharing-service/585778002/

3 hours ago, PaulChinetti said:

San Francisco is freaking out about those, because people drive on sidewalks, leave them blocking sidewalks, drive them into stores. 

Hopefully Nashville riders are a big more courteous!

https://sf.curbed.com/2018/4/16/17244850/scooters-cease-desist-san-francisco-letter-stop-motorized

 

well that didn't take too long.....

 

[Pdt2f]

1 hour ago, nashville_bound said:

Despite all the hand-wringing since the transit referendum loss, I believe Nashville likely dodged a fiscal bullet. This article detailing the DC Metro malfeasance offers great insight into what 'might have been'...at least to a smaller extent.

 

If It Works Better that Metro - Tax It

I can’t stand when governments force competitors for their services to subsidize their failures. Las Vegas did that when it forced the casinos, who are all huge in the convention industry, to effectively pay for the city’s convention center. The injustice just irritates me. 

[jmtunafish]

6 hours ago, nativetenn said:

Interesting to see that Memphis had the best rating in the state. What brings its rating up so much is the "Acceleration" category, which indicates how quickly a city is improving its transportation infrastructure. Memphis ranks second in the country in this category (!!!!) . I was unaware they were making drastic changes to current infrastructure there.

Memphis is very flat and more densely populated than Nashville.  The problem with these kinds of rankings is they don't consider that "Nashville" covers almost all of Davidson County including vast swaths of farmland and a whole bunch of very rugged terrain that's difficult to build on.  Memphis also has the Green Line which is a wonderful bike path that crosses the entire city on an old railroad bed.  In addition, the Memphis trolley system, as meager as it is, started back up last month.

Edited May 8, 2018 by jmtunafish

[Pdt2f]

I’d love for us to have a trolley line like that. I’ve never ridden on the trolleys in Memphis, the last time I was there we stayed in the Sheraton near the convention center and took their temporary trolley-bus to Beale street. 

[jmtunafish]

49 minutes ago, Pdt2f said:

I’d love for us to have a trolley line like that. I’ve never ridden on the trolleys in Memphis, the last time I was there we stayed in the Sheraton near the convention center and took their temporary trolley-bus to Beale street. 

I honestly think downtown Nashville doesn't need much more than what Memphis has, at least to start out.  In Memphis, the trolleys circumnavigate downtown and branch out to Midtown, thereby connecting the medical district (UT Medical School, LeBonheur Children's Hospital, the VA hospital, Methodist Hospital, The Regional Medical Center, and Southern College of Optometry) to downtown, the convention center/hotels, Beale Street, Bass Pro/Pyramid, FedEx Forum, the AAA baseball stadium, and some Midtown neighborhoods.  I really don't think Nashville needs to break the bank to build much more than what Memphis has, at least not initially.  As more money comes in, and as more Nashvillians warm to the idea of using mass transit, additional lines could be built.  

[AronG]

16 hours ago, Bos2Nash said:

 

This is what I don't get. 6,000 pedestrians are killed by cars every year. Killed dead! A significant percentage of our inhabited land area is inhospitable for humans that aren't ensconced in a 2,000 pound metal box with air bags. The population suffers from an epidemic of obesity because of rampant physical inactivity. And this is what gets people riled up?

I've tried multiple times to understand this backlash in SF, and I can't find anything that holds a tiny candle to the existing sacrifices we've made for vehicular traffic. I mean, just look at that travesty. You might have to step to the side to get around them. Or even, in a horrible scenario, move one of them out of the way. Oh the humanity!

[12Mouth]

Colby is now talking about gondolas. Thoughts? I don't hate the idea and think that it could actually be politically viable. They'll still run into the gentrification argument, as this is basically the artisanal organic equivalent of transit.

https://www.newschannel5.com/news/should-nashville-consider-aerial-trams-to-solve-transit-issues

[nashwatcher]

How long would it take to ride a gondola from the airport to downtown? 

[Pdt2f]

1 hour ago, AronG said:

I mean, just look at that travesty. You might have to step to the side to get around them. Or even, in a horrible scenario, move one of them out of the way. Oh the humanity!

 

[PaulChinetti]

Other than as a attraction/curiosity I'm not sure they are any kind of way to solve any of our transit issues. 

I mean, 10 people per tram doesn't seem like that many.

[BnaBreaker]

56 minutes ago, 12Mouth said:

Colby is now talking about gondolas. Thoughts? I don't hate the idea and think that it could actually be politically viable. They'll still run into the gentrification argument, as this is basically the artisanal organic equivalent of transit.

https://www.newschannel5.com/news/should-nashville-consider-aerial-trams-to-solve-transit-issues

This is transit brought to you by people who's only transit experience comes from a childhood trip to Disneyworld.  It worked for getting you from Space Mountain to the  Hall of Presidents, so why shouldn't it work as a viable way to move millions of people around in their daily lives?  I mean, I don't doubt that in very specific situations a gondola could be a useful and unique option.  Take New York's Roosevelt Island Tram, for example.  But there's very good reasons they didn't extend that aerial tram all around the city to use as their primary source for mass transit.  

Edited May 8, 2018 by BnaBreaker

[AronG]

29 minutes ago, BnaBreaker said:

This is transit brought to you by people who's only transit experience comes from a childhood experience at Disneyworld.  It worked for getting you from Space Mountain to the  Hall of Presidents, so why shouldn't it work as a viable way to move millions of people around in their daily lives?  I mean, I don't doubt that in very specific situations a gondola could be a useful and unique option.  Take New York's Roosevelt Island Tram, for example.  But there's very good reasons they didn't extend that aerial tram all around the city to use as their primary source for mass transit.  

Guys, you can cynically knock this just because it sounds ridiculous, but you're doing us all a disservice if you don't keep an open mind. I, for one, have been trying for years to educate people on the bright future of ATMT, autonomous teacup mass transit:

 

Edited May 8, 2018 by AronG
Wow, apparently gondola mass transit is actually a thing. Maybe Colby Sledge hasn't jumped the shark after all.

[12Mouth]

I don't think anyone is talking about an entire system based on gondolas (at least I hope not). But let's say, for instance, that you wanted to connect Vandy to downtown. 2.5 miles, and you connect to the MC Star, etc. You give the tourists a way of getting to midtown. You get Vandy/St. Thomas to pony up some money for it and Vandy pays for free or discounted rides for students/staff/faculty. I think this would be hugely popular. 

[AronG]

Fascinating that it's actually plausible: https://www.curbed.com/2017/9/21/16340394/urban-gondolas-cable-cars-cities.

The real question is whether it would be able to withstand the withering attack from NoTax4Cables.

[PaulChinetti]

11 minutes ago, AronG said:

Fascinating that it's actually plausible: https://www.curbed.com/2017/9/21/16340394/urban-gondolas-cable-cars-cities.

The real question is whether it would be able to withstand the withering attack from NoTax4Cables.

See this map?!?! You are paying taxes for a gondola that doesn't even take you from downtown to Loveless Cafe!! 

Way to go Liberals, failed again, NOTAX4CABLES. This plan will cost $1500* bucks a year per person!

*As made up by Paul Chinetti

Jokes aside, it looks like Gondolas work best in places with HUGE differences in height. 

[PruneTracy]

27 minutes ago, PaulChinetti said:

Jokes aside, it looks like Gondolas work best in places with HUGE differences in height. 

Not necessarily height (except for crossings of valleys or rifts), but areas where the terrain between terminals is rugged or environmentally sensitive.

As some on here don't like the ubiquitous overhead utility lines in Nashville, I wonder how this would go over. It's very visually intrusive in flat areas.

[Tennessine]

1 hour ago, AronG said:

Guys, you can cynically knock this just because it sounds ridiculous, but you're doing us all a disservice if you don't keep an open mind. I, for one, have been trying for years to educate people on the bright future of ATMT, autonomous teacup mass transit:

 

Screw this. Let's go back to horseback. Those were the days!

[smeagolsfree]

20 hours ago, Bos2Nash said:

 

well that didn't take too long.....

 

Just about got R.U.N D. O. V. E. R.  yesterday by a guy coming around a corner on one of these contraptions. Not going to get on one unless I look to break a hip.

Hopefully you guys saw Oh Brother where art thou. That was the reference.

[Pdt2f]

11 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

Just about got R.U.N D. O. V. E. R.  yesterday by a guy coming around a corner on one of these contraptions. Not going to get on one unless I look to break a hip.

Hopefully you guys saw Oh Brother where art thou. That was the reference.

With your LOTR and Oh Brother quotes, you’re quickly becoming my favorite contributor here. 

[rookzie]

On 5/7/2018 at 8:31 PM, Pdt2f said:

I’d love for us to have a trolley line like that. I’ve never ridden on the trolleys in Memphis, the last time I was there we stayed in the Sheraton near the convention center and took their temporary trolley-bus to Beale street. 

 

23 hours ago, jmtunafish said:

I honestly think downtown Nashville doesn't need much more than what Memphis has, at least to start out.  In Memphis, the trolleys circumnavigate downtown and branch out to Midtown, thereby connecting the medical district (UT Medical School, LeBonheur Children's Hospital, the VA hospital, Methodist Hospital, The Regional Medical Center, and Southern College of Optometry) to downtown, the convention center/hotels, Beale Street, Bass Pro/Pyramid, FedEx Forum, the AAA baseball stadium, and some Midtown neighborhoods.  I really don't think Nashville needs to break the bank to build much more than what Memphis has, at least not initially.  As more money comes in, and as more Nashvillians warm to the idea of using mass transit, additional lines could be built.  

For over 15 years, I have envisioned just that for Nashville, a starter circulator in the near-urban core, particularly to help revive the decimated Upper Jefferson Street corridor.

The recent elimination of the MTA Nº29 Jefferson bus route and its replacement by extending the Nº60 Blue Circuit Free-Ride to cover that most same route, and ending at around 33rd Avenue North and John Merritt Blvd., at the former TSU Keene Gymnasium (currently part of the Floyd-Payne Campus Center), comes mind for such a conversion.    This had been the path of the former car-line route, during the streetcar operation by TEPCO (Tennessee Electric Power Company) until the removal of streetcars altogether in 1941.

Some of the old tracks had remained beneath the pavement along Jefferson, as far as 27th Ave. as lately as 2010, although recent utility improvements may have finally displaced those vestiges.  It's not a route of any real distance, compared to other core thoroughfares, since Jefferson - John Merritt was reduced to a stub during the 1980s, when TSU was allowed to close off John Merritt Blvd, which formerly had been all Centennial Blvd from 28th Ave westward.

The Nº60 is a short route, quite amenable to being transformed into a streetcar line, even if it means adding an alternate set of tracks between 5th Ave. and 8th Ave (Rosa Parks Blvd), which being free for all including those who need it most along the TSU-Meharry-Fisk-corridor, along with downtown riders as tourists and as a shuttle for the Music City Star, it has much more potential as an attraction for the State Bicentennial Mall and its growing list of attractions currently undergoing development, not to mention as a shuttle for the First Tennessee Ball Park.   Barricading of traffic along 5th Ave. during game time could permit streetcar traffic only during those times.   Frequency could be maintained as current 15-20 minute head-ways or even shorter.

Streetcars as circulators are not built for speed, but rather for frequency, just as the SF Muni "Market and Wharves" F-Line and NOLA's NORTA St. Streetcar system, expanded during the late 1990s and again during the mid-late 2000s.   Funding this much shorter start-up it would be tenable by budget, but if I'm not mistaken, I believe I recall observing that TDOT had assisted in funding some of Memphis' MATA original Main Street start-up in the early 1990s long before it was expanded with its Riverfront Loop and Madison Ave. Lines.  I believe the MATA cars are all non-air-conditioned, including that replica double-truck Birney car shown in Jmtunafish's post above.  While most of MATA's cars are refurbished and modified vintage streetcars (e.g. Porto, Melbourne), the firm "Gomaco" has manufactured those Birney replicas for Little Rock's Metro Streetcar, Charlotte's CATS South End District, and for Tampa' TECO (TECO's and perhaps others are air-conditioned).

I'd almost bet that bodies would be clinging to a Nashville MTA Nº 60 streetcar like barnacles clinging to a ship hull.  They don't need to be any sleek, modern double-articulated vehicles costing some 4 times the amount each of a replica vintage car.   And yes, the tracks can't be just slapped down, as the system would need planning just as was necessary with that of MATA.

Edited May 9, 2018 by rookzie

[markhollin]

More on Councilman Colby Sledge's idea for gondola system:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2018/05/08/metrocouncil-member-looks-to-the-sky-for.html

[Hey_Hey]

The gondola idea is something I have been dreaming of for the last six years and I have spoken with him about this previously. The numbers work when you actually have an open mind about them. I’ll post more later. Dismissing this ideas outright is really shortsighted. It does take out of the box thinking though. 

Edited May 8, 2018 by Hey_Hey