The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[grilled_cheese]

also, what is an "extremely slight odor of alcohol"?

[PruneTracy]

https://www.newschannel5.com/news/on-the-rise/mayor-unveils-metro-traffic-plans

[PaulChinetti]

"He laid out several ideas, including adding technology like sensors and cameras to traffic lights to help ease the flow of traffic around the area. The eventual plan is for an entire traffic control center to serve as a hub for the different intersections across the city."

Why in the world this hasn't already been implemented is beyond me. When you sit at a light during non-rush hour, hours and no one is coming in the opposite directions. How much can those sensors cost? Do they need a central hub to work, if no-one is coming, then turn the light red!

 

So not really a plan at all, some ideas that we don't have money for...

[Bos2Nash]

Part of the transit referendum was traffic light synchronization. Why hasn't that just been looped into the general infrastructure improvement budgets is another thing that blows my mind.

I get not having the dedicated revenue streams from the transit plan, but why aren't we working on the budget more closely to include some of these improvements into our general spending?? We agreed to out up 225 million for the MLS stadium, but cant figure out traffic lights.

[Dale]

So, part-and-parcel of the referendum was approving a dedicated funding source for *any* sort of transportation improvements ?

[PaulChinetti]

15 minutes ago, Dale said:

So, part-and-parcel of the referendum was approving a dedicated funding source for *any* sort of transportation improvements ?

Pretty sure that was what all the various taxes would become a continuous stream of cash. 

 

No whether or not it would get looted for shortfalls in other areas is always the questions.

[Dale]

Any evidence of any post-referendum groundswell like, "Well, we've got to do something!" ?

Outside of this forum, I just don't get the impression that Nashvillians are in any way alarmed about congestion.

[samsonh]

1 hour ago, Dale said:

Any evidence of any post-referendum groundswell like, "Well, we've got to do something!" ?

Outside of this forum, I just don't get the impression that Nashvillians are in any way alarmed about congestion.

People I am friends with talk about the congestion literally all the time. No we are not LA or Atlanta, but it is getting worse month by month. 

[PaulChinetti]

19 minutes ago, samsonh said:

People I am friends with talk about the congestion literally all the time. No we are not LA or Atlanta, but it is getting worse month by month. 

Yeah we've went down this road post referendum though. And let me paint in the broadest strokes possible, and not singling you out. (thinking of quotes I've heard from people in stories and on the news) 

They hate congestion but they also don't want to pay for anything that won't directly effect them. They want a perfect city wide transportation system right now, with no increase in taxes that doesn't cost a lot of money, covers everyone and will cause no traffic during the construction of said city wide system. 

I've read multiply quotes in the news and seen interviews and even overheard my neighbor saying they weren't voting for it because it wouldn't benefit them, so why should they pay for it.

 

That is the mindset that the city has to overcome and I have no idea how it's going to do that?

[samsonh]

8 minutes ago, PaulChinetti said:

Yeah we've went down this road post referendum though. And let me paint in the broadest strokes possible, and not singling you out. (thinking of quotes I've heard from people in stories and on the news) 

They hate congestion but they also don't want to pay for anything that won't directly effect them. They want a perfect city wide transportation system right now, with no increase in taxes that doesn't cost a lot of money, covers everyone and will cause no traffic during the construction of said city wide system. 

I've read multiply quotes in the news and seen interviews and even overheard my neighbor saying they weren't voting for it because it wouldn't benefit them, so why should they pay for it.

 

That is the mindset that the city has to overcome and I have no idea how it's going to do that?

It takes time for people to overcome that mindset. No one likes paying for anything, but at some point the problem will start dramatically impacting quality of life. 

[PaulChinetti]

Oh I agree, I just don't see it happening anytime soon. 

I just hope we don't get to Atlanta, Houston, Austin, LA levels before people wake up and change their minds. 

[titanhog]

Well...one way you DON'T do it is to propose a $5B project to people who are skeptical and don't want to pay for it unless it directly affects them.  You'll probably get voted down every time and end up shaking your heard for 20-30-50-100 years wondering why nothing gets done.

This city is going to have to do it small piece by small piece.  One tiny bite at a time.  If a mayor with some foresight can figure this out and find a way to budget it, we can move forward.  At some time, we were able to get a bus system...and it appears we're improving / updating it from time to time...so that money has to come from somewhere...right?  We were able to make the Music City Star happen...right?  So...why can't we figure out a way to make some of these other ideas happen little by little?

If you want light rail...figure out the ONE place where you're 100% sure it will work right now...even if it's a one mile stretch...and then figure out how to pay for it.  Implement it.  Let it prove the naysayers wrong.  Then...add another 2 miles...then 4...then another stretch...etc.  

IMO...it's the only way we're going to get people on board.  You almost have to fool them into realizing it will make their lives better.

[rookzie]

16 hours ago, titanhog said:

Well...one way you DON'T do it is to propose a $5B project to people who are skeptical and don't want to pay for it unless it directly affects them.  You'll probably get voted down every time and end up shaking your heard for 20-30-50-100 years wondering why nothing gets done.

This city is going to have to do it small piece by small piece.  One tiny bite at a time.  If a mayor with some foresight can figure this out and find a way to budget it, we can move forward.  At some time, we were able to get a bus system...and it appears we're improving / updating it from time to time...so that money has to come from somewhere...right?  We were able to make the Music City Star happen...right?  So...why can't we figure out a way to make some of these other ideas happen little by little?

If you want light rail...figure out the ONE place where you're 100% sure it will work right now...even if it's a one mile stretch...and then figure out how to pay for it.  Implement it.  Let it prove the naysayers wrong.  Then...add another 2 miles...then 4...then another stretch...etc.  

IMO...it's the only way we're going to get people on board.  You almost have to fool them into realizing it will make their lives better.

That's exactly the reason I threw in that Kansas City streetcar example a few weeks ago.  Detroit's could have been better engineered to induce much more utilization to meet or to exceed expectations, by having the QLine Streetcar along Woodward Ave extended at least another 2.5 miles past its current terminus at Grande Blvd to the Social Security Administration in Highland Park, and even another5-3/4 miles, across Eight Mile Road near the State Fairgrounds and to the Detroit Zoo in Royal Oak.  The current terminus near the Amtrak station seems far from adequate, but indeed it is a start from nothing, since the last of Detroit's once extensive streetcar network ended during 1956.

Again, as it has in the case of Kansas City, and as it will require in the case of Detroit, a focus on making the case with modest initial steps and more palatable increments of expansion seems to have worked best in a region averse to mass spending, as opposed to the voting districts such as Denver.  Admittedly, unlike a streetcar circulator, Denver's RTD is much more high-capacity as both Light Rail and electric railroad-like commuter rail, a rather costly operation which also has required initial small stages of implementation since 1994.

Detroit's QLine

Edited July 20, 2018 by rookzie

[grilled_cheese]

Wait, didn't we already try to push the Amp?  People rejected that because it "wasn't enough".

[Dale]

Tampa has a streetcar that is well used. Yet, Tampans cry, "We don't have rail transit!"

[PaulChinetti]

http://devonzuegel.com/post/we-should-be-building-cities-for-people-not-cars

Some great suggested reading at the end. 

"The Ferry Building was hidden in the shadow of a grungy overpass, and the double decker highway blocked residents’ access to the bay all along the eastern edge of the peninsula."

What I think about when our genius politicians recommend double decker highways. Let's cut downtown off from the rest of the city even more!!!

[smeagolsfree]

I rode the full length of the KC line. 

It runs from Union Station to the River Market area, their farmers market.

One item of note is this line is free, like our Music city circuit, but I would have to question the fact they spent so much money for a dedicated line when a bus will do the exact same thing, the only difference being a train has the right of way.

All in all this is a very short line and is used by the tourist.

[GreenHillsBoy]

Mayor Briley is moving toward a project that will do what several of you have stated, focus on one area and make that work before expanding.  He mentioned that a project on Dickerson  Rd. would be a  rapid bus line with additional incentives for businesses and residential to build on/ near the line.  It will also be within the current time budget or at least not start with any new taxes.  Also discussion of the busses being able to control the traffic lights and hopefully in places where it could be done, dedicated lanes  

[samsonh]

47 minutes ago, GreenHillsBoy said:

Mayor Briley is moving toward a project that will do what several of you have stated, focus on one area and make that work before expanding.  He mentioned that a project on Dickerson  Rd. would be a  rapid bus line with additional incentives for businesses and residential to build on/ near the line.  It will also be within the current time budget or at least not start with any new taxes.  Also discussion of the busses being able to control the traffic lights and hopefully in places where it could be done, dedicated lanes  

And yet some in our politics were mad that it was going to cluster development(although that is almost certainly a good thing).

[Dale]

21 hours ago, PaulChinetti said:

Yeah we've went down this road post referendum though. And let me paint in the broadest strokes possible, and not singling you out. (thinking of quotes I've heard from people in stories and on the news) 

They hate congestion but they also don't want to pay for anything that won't directly effect them. They want a perfect city wide transportation system right now, with no increase in taxes that doesn't cost a lot of money, covers everyone and will cause no traffic during the construction of said city wide system. 

I've read multiply quotes in the news and seen interviews and even overheard my neighbor saying they weren't voting for it because it wouldn't benefit them, so why should they pay for it.

 

That is the mindset that the city has to overcome and I have no idea how it's going to do that?

This is precisely what I should have said. People everywhere grouse about traffic. Even in cities where congestion is not significant.

[PaulChinetti]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/20/upshot/driverless-cars-vs-transit-spending-cities.html

Interesting read. Some good and bad quotes from people on both sides. Nobody knows when driverless cars are coming but you can't just stop planning at all, hoping one day they will come. 

[BnaBreaker]

1 hour ago, PaulChinetti said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/20/upshot/driverless-cars-vs-transit-spending-cities.html

Interesting read. Some good and bad quotes from people on both sides. Nobody knows when driverless cars are coming but you can't just stop planning at all, hoping one day they will come. 

Also, and this has been said before in this thread, but even if the technology became ready and perfected TOMORROW, it would still take who knows how long for every commuter to purchase a self driving car, and for cities to alter their infrastructure appropriately.  Until that time, self driving car technology won't do anything to alleviate congestion.  It also is not a replacement for mass transit.   

Edited July 20, 2018 by BnaBreaker

[Guest]

All this talk about congestion reminds me the most recent $6BIL ($9BIL) transit plan, by its own admission,  did nothing to alleviate congestion....maybe one of the reasons it went down 2:1

Edited July 20, 2018 by Guest

[Vrtigo]

^

Nor was it supposed to. (Granted, for some inexplicable reason, those in charge of getting the message out implied pretty much the opposite.)

[BnaBreaker]

57 minutes ago, nashville_bound said:

All this talk about congestion reminds me the most recent $6BIL ($9BIL) transit plan, by its own admission,  did nothing to alleviate congestion....maybe one of the reasons it went down 2:1

To repeat for the 800th time, traffic relief is not the objective of any mass transit system, including the one proposed for Nashville.  That isn't a failure, it just isn't it's job.  It's like criticizing public education for not lowering healthcare costs.