The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[bigeasy]

2 hours ago, BnaBreaker said:

Also, and this has been said before in this thread, but even if the technology became ready and perfected TOMORROW, it would still take who knows how long for every commuter to purchase a self driving car,

I agree. I think it would take decades to get to that level. Just look at how big the classic car scene is, or really just the car scene in general. Would people be allowed to drive vehicles that were no self driving? I know cars are not well liked on here, but they aren't going anywhere anytime soon, if ever. There are so many people out there that have a passion for them, and there is too much money in that industry for them to be replaced right now.  Or even on the opposite spectrum, some people don't have the luxury to replace a car so they end up keeping it for 20+ years. 

[Bos2Nash]

1 hour ago, BnaBreaker said:

To repeat for the 800th time, traffic relief is not the objective of any mass transit system, including the one proposed for Nashville.  That isn't a failure, it just isn't it's job.  It's like criticizing public education for not lowering healthcare costs.

Agreed! Mass transit is more than anything an equalizer for many cities. Many times it is more expensive to own a car (and register and insure) in the city, hence many residents use mass transit. Mass Transit also allows many residents to get to work without being burdened in traffic. Downtown cores are not supposed to be a car zone, it is supposed to be a people and business zone. Those that cant afford or choose not to pay the costs of a car in the city should be able to get to a job in the downtown core just as easily (if not more so) than someone commuting in from Antioch/Franklin/Murfreesboro. People who commute into the city yet still live in Davidson County missed that point with the referendum and alot of that fault lies with the organizers by not relaying a strong enough message.

[Guest]

ha! Yes, yes....I hear you. Mass transit is not meant to lessen traffic congestion. Have you been reading the posts in this thread? There definitely seems to be a theme....... carry on.

samsonh - "People I am friends with talk about the congestion literally all the time. No we are not LA or Atlanta, but it is getting worse month by month. "

Paul - "They hate congestion but they also don't want to pay for anything that won't directly effect them. They want a perfect city wide transportation system right now, with no increase in taxes that doesn't cost a lot of money, covers everyone and will cause no traffic during the construction of said city wide system. "

samsonh - "It takes time for people to overcome that mindset. No one likes paying for anything, but at some point the problem [congestion] will start dramatically impacting quality of life. "

Paul - " I just hope we don't get to Atlanta, Houston, Austin, LA levels [congestion] before people wake up and change their minds. "

BnaBraker  "Until that time, self driving car technology won't do anything to alleviate congestion.  It also is not a replacement for mass transit. "



So the sales pitch for mass transit is - we will raise your taxes and not alleviate any traffic congestion...may even add to it by dedicating existing car lanes for mass transit and prioritizing mass transit vehicles..... why in the world did that message lose 2:1?

 

 

2 hours ago, BnaBreaker said:

To repeat for the 800th time, traffic relief is not the objective of any mass transit system, including the one proposed for Nashville.  That isn't a failure, it just isn't it's job.  It's like criticizing public education for not lowering healthcare costs.

 

Edited July 20, 2018 by Guest

[Dale]

Rail transit functions primarily as a civic feather-in-the-cap for Europhilic Millennials. FYI: I don't hate Millennials. They help me with my electronics all the time. Downside: they just grab my device, push a button and hand it back to me. So, I didn't learn a damned thing.

[PaulChinetti]

I think everyone agrees that the PR team on the pro-transit side failed miserably, even epically. 

It could be studied in schools for decades to come. 

Edited July 20, 2018 by PaulChinetti

[Pdt2f]

7 hours ago, PaulChinetti said:

I think everyone agrees that the PR team on the pro-transit side failed miserably, even epically. 

It could be studied in schools for decades to come. 

To be honest I think it’s much the same mindset that’s allowed the soccer situation to start becoming less of a sure thing than it once was. I don’t know if it’s people living in an echo chamber, or making assumptions about the city’s social/political/economic positions that just aren’t true, or targeting the wrong groups with the bulk of their resources (companies vs voters, in the case of the transit referendum). I don’t really know the solution, maybe listening more to detractors to understand why they feel the way they do and somehow acknowledging that in their campaigns. Like I must have said it a thousand times during the transit debates that joyously proclaiming how much development was going to happen on the light rail routes did nothing to persuade working and middle class renters to vote for it when all they stood to gain was having their rents raised and being driven further out as a result. I think they just misunderstood the thought-processes of some of these neighborhoods, just like many are completely misunderstanding why Nashvillians may be opposed to the fairgrounds soccer stadium deal. 

[Dale]

Look, I'm in sales. I don't make every sale. And when I don't make a sale, I don't beat myself up and assume that mine has been a "public relations failure." Sometimes, people just don't want what I'm selling and there's nothing I could have done to have made my services more palatable.

Edited July 21, 2018 by Dale

[PaulChinetti]

1 hour ago, Dale said:

Look, I'm in sales. I don't make every sale. And when I don't make a sale, I don't beat myself up and assume that mine has been a "public relations failure." Sometimes, people just don't want what I'm selling and there's nothing I could have done to have made my services more palatable.

Yeah more this. I’ve been at the meetings. Besides the 10 acres. Everything the detractors wants has been addressed or is being addressed. 

This is more some people just don’t want change.  

[Guest]

1 hour ago, PaulChinetti said:

This is more some people just don’t want change

 

if one believes some people do not want change, do they also believe some people want change for the sake of change? I will not speak in absolutes, but I contend any who fall into these catagories are too few to move the needle.

The vast majority of people want change ONLY if they believe it to be net positive. I consider such a view very rational.

 

[PaulChinetti]

Man you would think that and I did until I was at the second to last meeting. It’s a spittle laced tirade against change. Nothing more nothing less. 

I’ll put my asterisk, if they get parking figured out and I believe they will. This is a net double positive change for all parties involved. It will enrich everyone who operates at the Fairgrounds for decades to come.

HA, I’ll leave this here but I had Fairgrounds on the brain. 

My bad, I relinquish the floor to the previous speaker. 

Edited July 21, 2018 by PaulChinetti
I’m dumb

[nashwatcher]

8 hours ago, nashville_bound said:

 

if one believes some people do not want change, do they also believe some people want change for the sake of change? I will not speak in absolutes, but I contend any who fall into these catagories are too few to move the needle.

The vast majority of people want change ONLY if they believe it to be net positive. I consider such a view very rational.

 

Change is a fundamental aspect of life. Many people allow fear and worry to dominate their consciousness and therefore are resistant to change because they believe it will adversely affect them. It's far from rational. It's a reflection of their state of consciousness.

[Pdt2f]

1 hour ago, nashwatcher said:

Change is a fundamental aspect of life. Many people allow fear and worry to dominate their consciousness and therefore are resistant to change because they believe it will adversely affect them. It's far from rational. It's a reflection of their state of consciousness.

Is there no room for balance? For a proper desire to see some things conserved? Are those who work trying to protect historical buildings and national parks allowing fear and worry to dominate their consciousness? Or is it just the people who are opposed to the change you want who are “far from rational”? 

I’m completely on-board for the fairgrounds soccer stadium and development, but I find this mindset extremely condescending. 

[Guest]

18 hours ago, nashwatcher said:

Change is a fundamental aspect of life. Many people allow fear and worry to dominate their consciousness and therefore are resistant to change because they believe it will adversely affect them. It's far from rational. It's a reflection of their state of consciousness.

I never claimed change is not a 'fundamental part of life'.,.. it is quite self-evident. Change can be a positive or a negative or both simultaneously. Most change is completely involuntary - you are born, you age, you die, other people die, other things happen to you and around you. The thread is discussing change in the context or 'you', 'them', 'us', deciding to proactively creating change - a different scenario IMO.

You make a claim about 'many' people allowing' fear and worry to dominate their consciousness', but what does that mean in this context? Maybe some people are fearful of getting cancer,  but not of transit.... or fearful of divorce but not transit...or fearful of losing their job, but not transit. Unless one has a phobia, I think we worry about different matters to vary degrees throughout our lives experience. So, as it relates to the transit question, I question the relevance of your statement, when you proclaim 'many' people are fearful and worried about something to the point of irrationality, but can neither quantify the number nor detail what it is they are worried about.

Finally, why do you claim a belief that something 'will adversely affect them' is irrational? Isn't wanting to avoid an adverse reaction rational?
I think sometimes we get sidetracked by the diction used. For instance when I use the term 'fear' above I could have easily used - concern, misgiving, distrust, doubt, skepticism...  Instead of people fear change, I could state  -

People do not trust political promises based on their past experience with lying politicians.
People are concerned the extra taxes will have be raised even more to cover debt and operation of the mass transit proposal.
People doubt the new taxes for mass transit will benefit them.
People believe the new taxes on tourists and business will discourage the growth of both in Nashville.
.....
 

[nashvillwill]

Have you folks seen this? A fun concept for the future of hyperloop transit. 

 

[titanhog]

^^How deep would you have to go to dig a tunnel under the Atlantic Ocean? 

[smeagolsfree]

5 hours ago, titanhog said:

^^How deep would you have to go to dig a tunnel under the Atlantic Ocean? 

Depends on where in the Atlantic you dig.

[Tennessine]

On 7/20/2018 at 6:21 PM, Dale said:

Rail transit functions primarily as a civic feather-in-the-cap for Europhilic Millennials. FYI: I don't hate Millennials. They help me with my electronics all the time. Downside: they just grab my device, push a button and hand it back to me. So, I didn't learn a damned thing.

For us young folks, we assume we can't teach old dogs new tricks. Just let us do our magic and throw a "literally" here and a "basically" there, and voila, your thousand dollar iPhone has been fixed by a 28 year old tattoo enthusiast who wears glasses even though he doesn't need them and probably took a couple hits on his vape thirty minutes ago. Boomers, just sit back in the fancy recliners and resume your Fox News- we sometimes will do the work for you!

[Bos2Nash]

9 hours ago, nashvillwill said:

Have you folks seen this? A fun concept for the future of hyperloop transit. 

 

Can we talk about how Nashville is not included on the map, yet somehow we get jumped between Washington & St. Louis haha

[Bos2Nash]

On 7/20/2018 at 5:21 PM, Dale said:

Rail transit functions primarily as a civic feather-in-the-cap for Europhilic Millennials. FYI: I don't hate Millennials. They help me with my electronics all the time. Downside: they just grab my device, push a button and hand it back to me. So, I didn't learn a damned thing.

Wildly successful feathers mind you lol. S/U-Bahn, London Tube are just two examples of systems (with radically different fare systems mind you) that allow their respective cities to run very smoothly. London has even gone as far to have a congestion tax implemented on the city core. Want to talk about irrational fear/anger... propose that on the downtown Nashville core

[jmtunafish]

23 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

Can we talk about how Nashville is not included on the map, yet somehow we get jumped between Washington & St. Louis haha

or between St Louis and Atlanta.

And just how long would a hyperloop trip take between New York and Newark?  2 seconds?

Edited July 23, 2018 by jmtunafish

[PaulChinetti]

This would be great on 8th. It's right towards the upper limit of daily travelers but a turn lane would be amazing. 

*As long as sidewalks where added too

[Bos2Nash]

^^ To an extent I like this. I am still very skeptical/concerned with a dedicated center turn lane due to human nature to try and use it. Living just off Hermitage since January I cant believe how many people use the center turn lane as a normal traffic lane when they are feeling impatient. 

[PaulChinetti]

The cops need to be told about that!

Using 8th daily, with the amount of people turning, it's basically one lane each way anyways. 

[BnaBreaker]

 

1 hour ago, Bos2Nash said:

Can we talk about how Nashville is not included on the map, yet somehow we get jumped between Washington & St. Louis haha

 

1 hour ago, jmtunafish said:

or between St Louis and Atlanta.

And just how long would a hyperloop trip take between New York and Newark?  2 seconds?

It is just a stylized map connecting all the cities that currently have a rail transit system.  I don't think it has anything to do with the Hyperloop.

[Dale]

3 hours ago, nativetenn said:

For us young folks, we assume we can't teach old dogs new tricks. Just let us do our magic and throw a "literally" here and a "basically" there, and voila, your thousand dollar iPhone has been fixed by a 28 year old tattoo enthusiast who wears glasses even though he doesn't need them and probably took a couple hits on his vape thirty minutes ago. Boomers, just sit back in the fancy recliners and resume your Fox News- we sometimes will do the work for you!

But can't fix congestion and hand it back to us, thus the need for our billions, for light rail that doesn't actually reduce congestion, or maybe buses with skirts, so they look like trains, or something they saw on BBC.