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12 hours ago, timmay143 said:

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/08/13/sorry-bus-stops-round-1-matchup-nashville-vs-houston/

Pathetic.  Need to encourage more pedestrian and bike friendly structure and safety.  Would like to see heavy investment in these areas.

Sounds "encouraging" for the county to be bracketed in the Sorry Bus Stop Madness without really trying. -=:silly:

image.png.c2704da8cc5cd96062a2c992b890f3ce.png

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In MTA's WeGo's defense, you have to think about the total number of bus stops across the entire service area, most of which see only a handful of boardings in a day. Not really economical to put in $250,000 a pop of furniture and roadway improvements across a few thousand bus stops to serve a few riders. Not that StreetsBlog cares.

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I guess I don't really get the gist behind choosing a place for a bus stop. Why there? Are there apartments nearby that I don't see in the pic? But then why at that spot and not near an intersection. Does stopping at intersections interfere more with traffic?  If buses could stop in sync with a stop light that would seem to be ideal. I remember reading an article in Popular Science years ago about police cars/fire trucks/ambulances that could manipulate traffic lights to turn red to block traffic from turning in their paths. That had to be 30 years ago. Is that anything like what the BRT system uses. 

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On 7/24/2018 at 1:24 PM, 12Mouth said:

I'm guessing this may not be popular here, but I think the problem with trying to pass transit is the consolidated city/county government. I think that it made sense at the time (when Nashville was a sleepy city) and would be a complete mess trying to undue, but urban Nashville and the rural outlying areas of the county just have vastly different interests now.

IMO your point, if that's what you're referring to, IS popular and pertinent here.  This is exactly what I've supposed for years, just never shared it as an opinion.

Other medium-sized cities encompass considerably smaller land areas with or without consolidated city-counties.  In some cases, such as former Norfolk County Va, the city-county areas became consolidated into separate cities, each with its own equivalent independent services jurisdiction, unlike the urban services and general services districts of consolidated Nashville and Davidson County.  The remains of Norfolk County, for example, became consolidated into what now are the independent cities of Norfolk and contiguously bordering Chesapeake.  While Chesapeake in some ways roughly represents the same dichotomy of urban-rural areas of large combined square-mile area, as that of Nashville, although without the typical historically central business district of an older core municipality, Norfolk, on the other hand, encompasses a much smaller area, than that of either Chesapeake or of Nashville, and as such primarily is urban throughout.

Stakeholder representation and physical-geographical boundaries had much to do with Norfolk's ability to garner decisive support for the start up of its first advanced transit initiative, the Tide Light Rail, a standard-gauge set-up with a modest length of 7 -1/2 miles and which began operation in mid-2011.  Unsurprisingly, construction incurred a few delays, and the project was not without some cost overruns, something rarely avoided with the complexity of that type of start-up.  The city of Virginia Beach, another independent city but consolidated with the former Princess Anne County and also bordering Norfolk, pulled out of the initial planning for the light rail back in 1999, and while in 2012 Virginia Beach voters approved a non-binding referendum supporting expansion of the Tide  light rail into Virginia Beach by a 62% majority, four years later, voters there disapproved a referendum regarding to use city funds to pay part of what would have been the first extension of the Tide, to connect three miles farther east to Town Center, in what is now the "CBD" of that city.  Much of the city of Virginia Beach consists of urban and rural districts and is rife with sprawl, with demographic constituents much different from that of neighboring Norfolk, which had been bestowed with a somewhat embracing and engendering climate for instituting the light-rail, which utilizes a portion of the same abandoned railroad R.o.W. as that which would have been re-purposed for the Va. Beach extension.

All this is to say is that, had the proposal for the SE Va. light-rail project been contingent upon the aggregate approval of a much larger combined jurisdictional area of Va. Beach and Norfolk, the combined equivalent area of which is less than 70 sq miles larger than that of Metro Nashville, then that light-rail project to this day arguably might have remained stillborn if not aborted. .  Nashville seems to have become a victim of its own will, as far as taking locally unfamiliar risks is concerned

Edited by rookzie
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4 hours ago, PaulChinetti said:

In the example above though, they could at least throw in a couple of cross walks, that's just some paint! I mean look at this thing.

Installing crosswalks would mean the involvement of either TDOT or Metro Public Works with TDOT's consent. If you put in crosswalks, you need sidewalks on both sides. That brings up the stormwater drainage and ADA issues. It can start to snowball in a hurry.

4 hours ago, MLBrumby said:

I guess I don't really get the gist behind choosing a place for a bus stop. Why there? Are there apartments nearby that I don't see in the pic? But then why at that spot and not near an intersection. Does stopping at intersections interfere more with traffic?  If buses could stop in sync with a stop light that would seem to be ideal.

Many of these bus stops are placed because the transit agency is trying to hit a certain spacing (8 to 10 stops per mile) and there isn't a good place nearby to put it.

Ideally they would be placed at the far side of an intersection approach (i.e., past the traffic signal) so that the bus and vehicles behind it aren't stopped in the middle of a green cycle just to be stopped by a red once passengers are finished boarding.

4 hours ago, MLBrumby said:

I remember reading an article in Popular Science years ago about police cars/fire trucks/ambulances that could manipulate traffic lights to turn red to block traffic from turning in their paths. That had to be 30 years ago. Is that anything like what the BRT system uses. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_priority

This is being installed on Murfreesboro Road now for BRT lite services.

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Nashville-vs-houston.jpg.f1a91d853fc126802b4ac2fd0123dc6c.jpg

Why even have a stops like this?  This is pointless and absurd.  How is this helpful?  Why would you want to try to walk anywhere and/or ride the bus?  What's wrong with building infrastructure to encourage walking, biking, and other transit?  Gasp, it goes against the all mighty automobile!

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1 hour ago, timmay143 said:

Nashville-vs-houston.jpg.f1a91d853fc126802b4ac2fd0123dc6c.jpg

Why even have a stops like this?  This is pointless and absurd.  How is this helpful?  Why would you want to try to walk anywhere and/or ride the bus?  What's wrong with building infrastructure to encourage walking, biking, and other transit?  Gasp, it goes against the all mighty automobile!

I think it’s just a cultural difference between how different cities view transit. In places like New York, Chicago, DC, San Francisco, etc, people view transit as a necessary and great way for everyone to get around without the encumbrance of an automobile. Here, Houston, Atlanta, LA to a lesser extent- it’s a charitable thing that we do for the poor residents, and anything is better than nothing. Hopefully we develop enough parking lots and charge for garage parking to the extent where it becomes economical to prefer transit. I honestly think that once the city changes it’s mind on transit, votes for a plan, and sees the effect, further transit steps will be a walk in the park (like Charlotte). First we have to run an effective, adaptable, energetic transit plan (that doesn’t act like it won just because the local chambers of commerce endorsed it), run by someone who won’t commit political suicide halfway into the campaign. 

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Agreed.  I think it is definitely cultural,  more so American but lesser in larger cities.  I understand the reasons why.  I just think it would be beneficial to begin to consider walkability/sustainability in a more overall context.  I hope to see a shift, culturally, to at least think these things through more.  Huntsville is just as bad, if not worse, with this concept.  Even in more "progressive" areas (NJ, FL, KC, MSP) I've lived in/been to recently seem to half-azz this in areas.

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On ‎8‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 3:58 PM, rookzie said:

IMO your point, if that's what you're referring to, IS popular and pertinent here.  This is exactly what I've supposed for years, just never shared it as an opinion.

Other medium-sized cities encompass considerably smaller land areas with or without consolidated city-counties.  In some cases, such as former Norfolk County Va, the city-county areas became consolidated into separate cities, each with its own equivalent independent services jurisdiction, unlike the urban services and general services districts of consolidated Nashville and Davidson County.  The remains of Norfolk County, for example, became consolidated into what now are the independent cities of Norfolk and contiguously bordering Chesapeake.  While Chesapeake in some ways roughly represents the same dichotomy of urban-rural areas of large combined square-mile area, as that of Nashville, although without the typical historically central business district of an older core municipality, Norfolk, on the other hand, encompasses a much smaller area, than that of either Chesapeake or of Nashville, and as such primarily is urban throughout.

Stakeholder representation and physical-geographical boundaries had much to do with Norfolk's ability to garner decisive support for the start up of its first advanced transit initiative, the Tide Light Rail, a standard-gauge set-up with a modest length of 7 -1/2 miles and which began operation in mid-2011.  Unsurprisingly, construction incurred a few delays, and the project was not without some cost overruns, something rarely avoided with the complexity of that type of start-up.  The city of Virginia Beach, another independent city but consolidated with the former Princess Anne County and also bordering Norfolk, pulled out of the initial planning for the light rail back in 1999, and while in 2012 Virginia Beach voters approved a non-binding referendum supporting expansion of the Tide  light rail into Virginia Beach by a 62% majority, four years later, voters there disapproved a referendum regarding to use city funds to pay part of what would have been the first extension of the Tide, to connect three miles farther east to Town Center, in what is now the "CBD" of that city.  Much of the city of Virginia Beach consists of urban and rural districts and is rife with sprawl, with demographic constituents much different from that of neighboring Norfolk, which had been bestowed with a somewhat embracing and engendering climate for instituting the light-rail, which utilizes a portion of the same abandoned railroad R.o.W. as that which would have been re-purposed for the Va. Beach extension.

All this is to say is that, had the proposal for the SE Va. light-rail project been contingent upon the aggregate approval of a much larger combined jurisdictional area of Va. Beach and Norfolk, the combined equivalent area of which is less than 70 sq miles larger than that of Metro Nashville, then that light-rail project to this day arguably might have remained stillborn if not aborted. .  Nashville seems to have become a victim of its own will, as far as taking locally unfamiliar risks is concerned

Or maybe Nashvillians are sensible types: https://pilotonline.com/news/local/columnist/kerry-dougherty/article_802314fa-3283-56b7-ba70-c69c6b2c453e.html

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On 8/19/2018 at 7:38 AM, Dale said:

My point is not about the merits of such an initiative, Dale, but rather with the politics of making the case for a wide spectrum of demographics, irrespective of whether or not light rail is tenable for Nashvillians.  I honestly believe that the proposal was much too generous and ambitious as a startup, for any city, let alone Nashville and Davidson County.

Notwithstanding the fact that a long-term 25-30 year plan is mandated under the MPO requirements for establishing a vision,  it's very difficult to sell to a motley, heterogeneous community, such a product which in some ways appears aggressively aimed at achieving a "goal", while in other ways is criticized as not going far enough to appeal to become palpable.    Projects (and project touters) have been brought down, when that support erodes and becomes a “then, but not now” situation.    The project model just might have  shifted deplorably about its axis (or axes) of "attitude" about its trajectory, in terms of voter vantage points of view and its hopeful and pre-conceived targets of buy-in, wherein the previous 2 or 3 years have been spent in advancing the project to the extent that the proposers believe that they decisively have garnered community support.

But on the day of the referendum, the project gets squashed like a roach under foot by the electorate (quite often which no longer is the same as the community at large), leaving the administration to say "WTF did I just see!"

Edited by rookzie
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3 hours ago, Dale said:

Seems like this boomer ##### was an awful parent:

https://pilotonline.com/news/local/columnist/kerry-dougherty/article_b86be461-f93c-506f-b139-d3da4795f86b.html

Quote

I’m not proud of this, but there were days when I dosed my mildly sick spawn with Tylenol

She would willingly drug up a sick child and then leave it in someone elses care?  WTF is wrong with that sh ithole generation?

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Dale - a very on point post. 


It seems some on the board (see above) would rather character assassinate via histrionics rather than parley with facts on the issue of transportation. It is humorous but to each their own...

Mrs. Dougherty's points about the transportation lobby in VA Beach-Norfolk  muddying their arguments for transit with many irrelevant and unsupportable ancillary arguments is recognizable in Nashville.  To state the obvious..... the onrush of millennials to Nashville is evidence that light-rail is NOT a prerequisite. (also see Austin)


 

7 hours ago, Dale said:

 

Edited by Guest
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12 hours ago, rookzie said:

My point is not about the merits of such an initiative, Dale, but rather with the politics of making the case for a wide spectrum of demographics, irrespective of whether or not light rail is tenable for Nashvillians.  I honestly believe that the proposal was much too generous and ambitious as a startup, for any city, let alone Nashville and Davidson County.

It was a 30 year plan in a country where the average person can't think 6 months ahead.  I think they should aim for exactly the plan they offered, and just not tell anyone that 10 years from now we'll be starting on light rail.  Even just the bus and sidewalk improvements would have been huge.

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37 minutes ago, Neigeville2 said:

It was a 30 year plan in a country where the average person can't think 6 months ahead.  I think they should aim for exactly the plan they offered, and just not tell anyone that 10 years from now we'll be starting on light rail.  Even just the bus and sidewalk improvements would have been huge.

I actually agree with that, Neige.  Thing is, it was a hard sell nonetheless ─ a Catch-22, as it were.  Sure, MPO's require such projections, but on the other hand, the mix of growing polarity in opposing constituencies and their respective elements perhaps eventually came from behind and doomed the proposal.   In the case of the failed Transit referendum, the leadership arguably appears to have failed in its capability of addressing adaptive challenges requiring adjustments from numerous places throughout the community at large, in spite of what may have appeared to have been MTA's comprehensive n-Motion drive to solicit feedback.  

People push back when they perceive that  their personal and institutional equilibrium is about to become disturbed, and as we have observed, these people resist in all kinds of creative and unexpected ways that can squelch a plan which might otherwise appear virtuous in its own right.   People don't necessarily resist change  per se, but rather they resist perceived loss.  Leadership becomes on the block  when it must confront people with "loss", even in the form of an incremental sales-tax hike; or with the perception of protracted disruption, despite that fact that the plan most likely would have been implemented as a series of sub-projects, rather than at once.  I just didn't see the presence of adaptive handling in leadership for the making the case for the Transit referendum, with the conditions attached, even from the start, during the Barry tenure.   Oh yes the plan sounded and appeared "Tasty", and perhaps "sexy" at least in part, but the touting as it was perhaps also created risk  conflict  and instability in probability of  being passed, because of failure to address some civic issues and underlying adaptivity to problems that come with upending deep and entrenched norms.  In this respect, the touting of the Transit plan was perceived as an importuning.  I don't think that the presentation had been engineered at a rate that voters could ingest and absorb.  Not even Denver implemented its start-up plan at once, but also Denver long previously had started preparing for the ability to fund its rail, during the early 1980s.

Just saying.

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17 hours ago, nashville_bound said:

Dale - a very on point post. 


It seems some on the board (see above) would rather character assassinate via histrionics rather than parley with facts on the issue of transportation. It is humorous but to each their own...

Mrs. Dougherty's points about the transportation lobby in VA Beach-Norfolk  muddying their arguments for transit with many irrelevant and unsupportable ancillary arguments is recognizable in Nashville.  To state the obvious..... the onrush of millennials to Nashville is evidence that light-rail is NOT a prerequisite. (also see Austin)
 

Chill, brah.  No need to get all triggered.  After all, i'm just practicing my LIBERTY and PERSONAL RIGHTS, brah.  I mean, isn't that what your boy Ronald "weed is the most dangerous drug of all time" Reagan would be down with?

Just find it funny that some hysteric rando woman writer pens a column sh1t talking millenials while she herself and others of her generation are the ones that raised millenials.  Just trying to figure out why we should give a fukk about what she has to say regarding transportation? 

Boomer logic is so weird me.

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18 hours ago, Dale said:

At least the heat is off Millennials. It's the light-rail fetishists concocting the narrative of having to placate Millennials because they don't like cars or Olive Garden.

Dale,

 

A quick scanning of your posting history might make one think you are the one with the train fetish. Are you a foamer?

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1 hour ago, grilled_cheese said:

Chill, brah.  No need to get all triggered.  After all, i'm just practicing my LIBERTY and PERSONAL RIGHTS, brah.  I mean, isn't that what your boy Ronald "weed is the most dangerous drug of all time" Reagan would be down with?

Just find it funny that some hysteric rando woman writer pens a column sh1t talking millenials while she herself and others of her generation are the ones that raised millenials.  Just trying to figure out why we should give a fukk about what she has to say regarding transportation? 

Boomer logic is so weird me.

I didn’t read the article as her bashing millennials (of which I am one), I read it as her bashing people who loadly proclaim to know “what millennials value,” and then proceed to build massive vanity projects that may get used once or twice a year by your average millennial resident. Which I agree with her irritation, I’m tired of always getting pigeonholed by people because of the generation I happen to be born into. I don’t value the urban lifestyle because I’m a millennial, I value it because I see it as being more conducive to vibrant community (if done correctly), more conducive to social and economic opportunity, and less ecologically and spiritually destructive than the commuter-subdivision environment I grew up in. Funny thing is, among the people I hang out with the most (almost all of whom are millennials), I’m in the minority position on my preference for the urban environment. 

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11 minutes ago, Pdt2f said:

I didn’t read the article as her bashing millennials (of which I am one), I read it as her bashing people who loadly proclaim to know “what millennials value,” and then proceed to build massive vanity projects that may get used once or twice a year by your average millennial resident. Which I agree with her irritation, I’m tired of always getting pigeonholed by people because of the generation I happen to be born into. I don’t value the urban lifestyle because I’m a millennial, I value it because I see it as being more conducive to vibrant community (if done correctly), more conducive to social and economic opportunity, and less ecologically and spiritually destructive than the commuter-subdivision environment I grew up in. Funny thing is, among the people I hang out with the most (almost all of whom are millennials), I’m in the minority position on my preference for the urban environment. 

Oddly enough mine is the opposite experience. I grew up in the suburbs and all my friends want to live in the city, send kids to public schools in Metro, be a part of the urban environment. I think there are many different characteristics that make one more open to the urban experience.

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I do not when you grew up, but I am curious, how did your friends' plans workout? Did they indeed move to Nashville (or another city) and send their kids to public schools?

When our kids reached school age, our choices were few and all carried risks. Move to Will Co. for schools and sports, continue to live downtown and pay for private schools, send the boys to the most und performing school zone in the county and go into the lottery.

 

5 hours ago, samsonh said:

Oddly enough mine is the opposite experience. I grew up in the suburbs and all my friends want to live in the city, send kids to public schools in Metro, be a part of the urban environment. I think there are many different characteristics that make one more open to the urban experience.

 

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1 hour ago, nashville_bound said:

I do not when you grew up, but I am curious, how did your friends' plans workout? Did they indeed move to Nashville (or another city) and send their kids to public schools?

When our kids reached school age, our choices were few and all carried risks. Move to Will Co. for schools and sports, continue to live downtown and pay for private schools, send the boys to the most und performing school zone in the county and go into the lottery.

 

 

I know people who were happy as larks living in places like east Nashville and west end, but when they had kids they moved to Franklin so fast it made my head spin. I would personally love to stay in Nashville long-term but I’m also not going to be sending my kids to Davidson county schools so if the finances aren’t right when my kids are school-age we’ll probably be late for Sumner or Wilson county. 

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