The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[MidTenn1]

I think out-of-towners (conventioners, tourists, overnight business people) would feel more comfortable with some kind of rail system, particularly along West End/Broadway. And I see them being a very large part of the population of users as it expands the choices for hospitality, dining and entertainment for the City's large number of visitors.

Such a system gives them 40 blocks or more worth of options (ie; Stay at a West End hotel near Centennial Park, eat at a Mid Town restaurant and enjoy night life at one of the lower Broadway Honky tonks).

[ournashville]

Dean: "But when you look at it in a rational way and look at the costs and you get the same ridership, it’s hard for me to justify. But I’m going to approach it with an open mind.”

I'm not convinced you get the same ridership. I've never read a comparison that suggested BRT has the pull of a modern streetcar and this isn't Bogata. Capacity is one thing, attraction is another. I guess if BRT's got dedicated lanes, pre-pay platform boarding, distinctive stops and busses et. al. - the infrastructure/lanes are permanent and separate then maybe that could be closer to happening. If it's BRT like Gallatin there's no way I would venture to guess it would pull the same ridership as a streetcar.

Unless the investment is in something permanent, identifiable, and more than convenient I don't think people respond strongly. Maybe more importantly I'm not sure the market will step up thier game from where it's at along and around that corridor already. I also think density is there to support a good BRT or better yet rail investment. WE/B seems developed out as well if not better than some of the streetcar corridors existing around the country today. If anything, I think the permanent investment in transit helps the corridor development accelerate and begin to offer urbanization without as much consideration for auto infrastructure (pkg lots) - we'll need a little help on the zoning side i suppose. I think it will be used by current commuters and others who current utilize/live/play on the corridor but moreso I see it as an investment in future development.

I like to think of transit as an investment in the future growth patterns of a city. A tokken BRT won't do much to change the way WEB functions. A permanent investment can bring (and support) valuable development intensities that benefit the corridor, metro, and the region.

PHofKS, I agree, I think tourist/visitors will respond much better to rails (or permanent/dedicated BRT). Say what you want, people just don't respond to busses as much.

Btw, hi. I'm new to the forum. Long time lurker first time poster. Been meaning to join the conversation for a while now.

[smeagolsfree]

Welcorme to the forum ournashville. Glad to have you on board.

[producer2]

Dean: "But when you look at it in a rational way and look at the costs and you get the same ridership, it’s hard for me to justify. But I’m going to approach it with an open mind.”

I'm not convinced you get the same ridership. I've never read a comparison that suggested BRT has the pull of a modern streetcar and this isn't Bogata. Capacity is one thing, attraction is another. I guess if BRT's got dedicated lanes, pre-pay platform boarding, distinctive stops and busses et. al. - the infrastructure/lanes are permanent and separate then maybe that could be closer to happening. If it's BRT like Gallatin there's no way I would venture to guess it would pull the same ridership as a streetcar.

Unless the investment is in something permanent, identifiable, and more than convenient I don't think people respond strongly. Maybe more importantly I'm not sure the market will step up thier game from where it's at along and around that corridor already. I also think density is there to support a good BRT or better yet rail investment. WE/B seems developed out as well if not better than some of the streetcar corridors existing around the country today. If anything, I think the permanent investment in transit helps the corridor development accelerate and begin to offer urbanization without as much consideration for auto infrastructure (pkg lots) - we'll need a little help on the zoning side i suppose. I think it will be used by current commuters and others who current utilize/live/play on the corridor but moreso I see it as an investment in future development.

I like to think of transit as an investment in the future growth patterns of a city. A tokken BRT won't do much to change the way WEB functions. A permanent investment can bring (and support) valuable development intensities that benefit the corridor, metro, and the region.

PHofKS, I agree, I think tourist/visitors will respond much better to rails (or permanent/dedicated BRT). Say what you want, people just don't respond to busses as much.

Btw, hi. I'm new to the forum. Long time lurker first time poster. Been meaning to join the conversation for a while now.

Welcome as well. My only addition to your comments is I think we are overlooking the actual residents of this area and how streetcar line down West End Ave. can get literally hundreds, if not thousands of cars off of this stretch of roadway on a daily basis. There are over 5500 full time residents inside the downtown loop currently and several thousand more in midtown. Add that to the number of visitors and the ridership could be quite heavy right off the bat.

[timmay143]

Dean: "But when you look at it in a rational way and look at the costs and you get the same ridership, it’s hard for me to justify. But I’m going to approach it with an open mind.”

I'm not convinced you get the same ridership. I've never read a comparison that suggested BRT has the pull of a modern streetcar and this isn't Bogata. Capacity is one thing, attraction is another. I guess if BRT's got dedicated lanes, pre-pay platform boarding, distinctive stops and busses et. al. - the infrastructure/lanes are permanent and separate then maybe that could be closer to happening. If it's BRT like Gallatin there's no way I would venture to guess it would pull the same ridership as a streetcar.

Unless the investment is in something permanent, identifiable, and more than convenient I don't think people respond strongly. Maybe more importantly I'm not sure the market will step up thier game from where it's at along and around that corridor already. I also think density is there to support a good BRT or better yet rail investment. WE/B seems developed out as well if not better than some of the streetcar corridors existing around the country today. If anything, I think the permanent investment in transit helps the corridor development accelerate and begin to offer urbanization without as much consideration for auto infrastructure (pkg lots) - we'll need a little help on the zoning side i suppose. I think it will be used by current commuters and others who current utilize/live/play on the corridor but moreso I see it as an investment in future development.

I like to think of transit as an investment in the future growth patterns of a city. A tokken BRT won't do much to change the way WEB functions. A permanent investment can bring (and support) valuable development intensities that benefit the corridor, metro, and the region.

PHofKS, I agree, I think tourist/visitors will respond much better to rails (or permanent/dedicated BRT). Say what you want, people just don't respond to busses as much.

Btw, hi. I'm new to the forum. Long time lurker first time poster. Been meaning to join the conversation for a while now.

Wow, great first post and welcome! I agree with many that street car is WAY MORE appealing. Good points on the built infrastructure too. I am having a hard time seeing how these things work in our clogged streets, but after it is said and done the point is to take away a lane in order to reduce cars. I think I will understand it better once I see it in action. The same probably goes for many others in the city too. I think a temporary BRT like Gallatin might be a good first step. Get some bad ass looking buses, ones that almost look like rail and some heavy advertisement. Then once this is established, pursue a more permanent solution in a street car or what will work best. I then think once a good line like this is eastablished, it won't be long before others follow. Again, similar to the STAR situation and Lebanon line. Not the most popular line, but started off small, cheap, and SMART. Now, the line has seen recent "success" in ridership, and now an expansion to Clarksville is being considered. Now, again, maybe not the most popular atm, but if this is established and similar "success" is seen, then I think commuter lines like Murfreesboro, Franklin, and Gallatin will more easily follow.

I think the density issue isn't a problem as I always say that you should prepare before as you don't wait for density to come. That would take forever, IMO. Plus, once built, more developments, hence, density, should appear. Kind of like the MCC has, IMO, driven development for, obviously, hotels, which in turn drives other development, like a domino effect. Of course, you shouldn't build a mass transport line just for the heck of it, . You should have some reasons to build!

[smeagolsfree]

Well, the long awaited Parsons Brinckerhoff study is out and BRT is the way they want to go over a modern Streetcar. No surprise here as the city has no vision either. Dedicated bus lanes are a joke as no one enforces the HOV lanes and getting people on a bus in this city is like leading swine to the slaughter house. Why does the city pay for the studies when they already know the answer or what they are going to do anyway.

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20111212/NEWS0202/312120047/Study-says-rapid-buses-best-option-east-west-transit?odyssey=tab{sodEmoji.|}topnews{sodEmoji.|}text{sodEmoji.|}FRONTPAGE

It will run from East Nashville to White Bridge Road. I think rickshaws would probably work better and be a lot cheaper an probably put a few more people to work.

[FriendlyFlier]

I share your sentiments. This was a pretty big disappointment to me. Dean knows he would be out of office by the time a build out of a streetcar rail system would be finished.

This is putting valuable money to work for buses. Enough said.

[ournashville]

Disappointing. I don't have confidence that the BRT will be done in a manner that it drastically shaves trip times or that it's significantly distinguishable from typical bus transit so as to actually be attractive to many choice riders. I won't even imagine that it will incent transit oriented development.

Glass half full news: WE Av. corridor is/has been urbanizing and will continue despite the lack of significant transit investment. Glass almost half full: most/all of that development will still more than accommodate the auto (though they probably would have anyway). Unfortunate.

It's chicken/egg for so many but i tend to think you invest in transit/infrastructure/land use controls that get you the density...and the kind of urbanism...or kind of city you want in the long term. Guess that's not what we (Metro) want.

I was really excited about the kind of statement we were getting ready to make along the corridor and in the city through transit. Now, not so much. A very small part of me remains hopeful that we go all 'TransMileneo' on the corridor.

[smeagolsfree]

For what its worth, here is the link to the entire study.

http://wkrn.images.worldnow.com/images/incoming/docs/transitmeetingpreentation.pdf

[MidTenn1]

The BRT in Denver along the downtown pedestrian mall (17th ?) works well and is impressive. Of course it's free, so you don't have a log jam at the pay station. The bus has front and middle sliding doors, just like a subway which open fast as the bus dips to curb level. The doors are wide and the aisles are also wide with supports for standing. It is essentially a subway car on rubber tires. People enter and exit quickly.

The key to acceptance is the speed at which you load and unload. You either have to make it free or stop at controlled prepay, gated stations. I think it would be worthwhile to make this line free. The benefits of such a line, would be the improvement in the ability of tourists to get to the primary tourist areas in town (Downtown, SoBro, Mid-Town West End/Vanderbilt).

EDIT: How much did they pay for that study? I could have done that in a weekend.

Edited December 13, 2011 by PHofKS

[smeagolsfree]

EDIT: How much did they pay for that study? I could have done that in a weekend.

What ever they payed was too much. Davidson county tax dollars at work.

[arkitekte]

If the city can somehow get tourist and citizens to ride these buses then I'm all for it, but I don't think that's likely to happen. Modern street cars and trains just have a better vibe with people when it comes to public transportation.

[timmay143]

Well, whatever our feelings are at this time, we might as well put all our efforts (we citizens) to make this a success. I see it being like the Lebanon MCS line which had a slow start and was questionable (such as why this line and not Murfreesboro) which is because it was cheap and doable (rail right of way was attainable). Now the MCS line is doing pretty well with positive news about it which in turn has pushed the RTA and partners to look into more lines. I think the BWE will be the same type of deal except with faster growth and success since the BRT line will be in a high demand/traffic area with many more times as visibility/periodicity than the MCS. They should make the line free. If it was LRT, then I would pay, but if other BRT are free with success then we should follow that model.

[MidTenn1]

Chattanooga's downtown circulators are free. It's nice; just hop on and hop off.

[franktown]

I know this is what these people do for a living.... but I seriously question that the ridership numbers and development potential would be essentially the same for BRT as streetcars. Just slightly disappointed

[jice]

If it is done right, I think there could be little difference between a BRT system and a street car system - as in the look, how it works, speed, etc.

The BRT system on Gallatin Pike started out as basically a joke.. but they've added nice looking stations with real-time signs.. and probably other things that I don't realize.. so it's getting there. Hopefully the West End line would take this multiple steps forward into a real BRT.

The best news is that we get it up and running super fast (comparatively speaking). I'd love to see light rail, but i'd also love to see something within my lifetime too.

[timmay143]

Chattanooga's downtown circulators are free. It's nice; just hop on and hop off.

Good point. I forgot we (Nashville) even had free circulators (although Chattanooga may have a different type, I dunno). This BRT would help in combination with the circulators. You could ride the BRT up and down WE/B then hop off and take the circulators.

[smeagolsfree]

Remember there is a free DT circulator here too. There are three routes, BLUE, GREEN and PURPLE. Just not as well used as the Chattanooga circulator. The other thing about the Chattanooga busses is they are all electric. They got a grant from the TVA to do that system.

[producer2]

Wow, it appears that many of you did not read the entire report once you saw the word bus. This system is EXACTLY the same as used for any mode of transportation whether it is a bus or a streetcar. It has the same stations for pick up and drop off, the same technology used to affect the timing of traffic lights (thereby making it truly rapid transit) and basically the same shell and seating (except slightly wider) than the the streetcar. The only exceptions are that it can be flexible to move in another direction instead of being "glued" to a track, it still requires some fuel as it is only a hybrid not exclusively electric and it cost HALF of what a streetcar system does. Personally I can't wait to not have to get my car out to travel to midtown and back....

Edited December 14, 2011 by producer2

[MidTenn1]

I am concerned the existing roadway capacity will be significantly restricted by reducing the number of traffic lanes from seven to four. The only reference to the laneage re-alignment is in a before and after picture which gives no indication of how left turns will be served.

[Guest]

This explains it in much better detail. Pics in the back pages 23.24 address left-hand turns

http://www.urbanstreet.info/2nd_sym_proceedings/Volume%202/Levinson.pdf

[franktown]

BRT just isn't exciting. Streetcars are just so glamorous, hip, and cool

[jice]

BRT just isn't exciting. Streetcars are just so glamorous, hip, and cool

I understand what you mean about streetcars, but I still think people could get excited about BRT once they see real stations and dedicated lanes. It will be almost the same (if they do it how they should).

[it's just dave]

Nashville's a huge center for printing. Let's just print the money we need. I probably won't be around to see the hip and cool stuff paid off, but hey, that's how the government does it, so why can't we, right? Living within one's means is a forgotten concept. But that's easy when it's someone else's money. I've always thought Nashville had the self-image that didn't require us to buy cool to be cool. That what other places do. Other cities will prevent drowning in their debt by eventually making sure their citizens do. Better watch what you wish for. I say bring on the buses. Do it right, do it well, but do it with common sense.

[arkitekte]

I understand what you mean about streetcars, but I still think people could get excited about BRT once they see real stations and dedicated lanes. It will be almost the same (if they do it how they should).

Still, the idea of getting on a "bus" makes a lot of people turn up their nose, no matter what type of station it stops at.