The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[timmay143]

Still, the idea of getting on a "bus" makes a lot of people turn up their nose, no matter what type of station it stops at.

Which is why we will need to help campaign this thing. A bus may be a bus, but a BRT bus does not have to be a regular route bus! I think, if the "buses" are done right and once people use it, the word will spread and the bus stigma will begin to peel away. Of course that is in an ideal, Utopian world of mine, . If this does happen, then people will begin to see all buses as mode of transportation (for all, in general) instead of transportation for the mass transonites and poor.

Equal views for buses!!!

[nashvylle]

Hey Guys-

Long time reader on this website, have posted in the past, but the revitalization in Nashville urban development has led me to post again.

I am a big supporter of mass transit, but I also was in favor of having urban streetcars. Does anyone think it's possible to have a streetcar in the urban part of the corridor (downtown / west end), and have BRT in the more neighborhood-oriented areas?

Edited December 15, 2011 by nashvylle

[smeagolsfree]

Welcome Back Nashvylle. Glad to see the increased activity onthe board.

[FriendlyFlier]

I can already feel Nashville dropping off a list of modern US cities after reading this.

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2011/10/streetcar-named-desire/380/

[jice]

I can already feel Nashville dropping off a list of modern US cities after reading this.

http://www.theatlant...med-desire/380/

This was interesting:

Yonah Freemark argues that many of the proposed new streetcar lines suffer from limitations that render them no more efficient — from a transportation perspective — than the buses they replace. The most important of these conceptual flaws is a failure to provide streetcars with dedicated lanes that separate them from the general traffic flow. "This means that streetcars will be stuck in the same traffic as everyone else, making speed improvements impossible," Freemark writes.

I think one thing to keep in mind is that we do not want to do a streetcar system that sucks.. i'd much rather have a full BRT system that actually gets the job done.

Also, check out this article..

Public image is important to BRT success

Overall, findings show that Full-Service BRT can replicate both the functionality standards and image qualities normally associated with rail, and that even a lower-investment BRT-Lite service performs remarkably well in terms of overall rating achieved per investment dollar. Visit www.nbrti.org for the full report.

[nashvylle]

http://nymag.com/news/features/67027/

Very nice article and very applicable to Nashville. If we have physically dedicated lanes for the buses, quick loading times for passengers by allowing them to pay before they load to bus, and if the buses look very modern/cool/sexy, I think this will be successful.

[jice]

http://nymag.com/news/features/67027/

Very nice article and very applicable to Nashville. If we have physically dedicated lanes for the buses, quick loading times for passengers by allowing them to pay before they load to bus, and if the buses look very modern/cool/sexy, I think this will be successful.

Great article. I, for one, am pretty excited about the idea of a real BRT system in Nashville.

Nice to know that NYC is implementing one as well.

[timmay143]

I haven't read the report/study about the WE/B BRT connector so it may be in it, but does anyone know if any thought has been given to how this line would look (infrastructurally speaking)? That is, will it be similar to LRT where there is usually one station in the middle of both lanes, will it resemble more of a traditional bus system with lanes on the outside of the highway next to the curbs, or maybe even both BRT ways built to just one side of the highway? How does everyone feel about the choices? I have no experience with BRT, but I think it might be more "acceptable" if it was built in the middle of the highway like a LRT (well the only one I've seen is SLC and at least near the UofU campus (and downtown I think) it is structured like this). From what I understand about the Gallatin line is it is more like a traditional bus stop, I guess BRT-lite? I think if the BRT WE/B BRT was made like a LRT in terms of boarding and payment, it would go over better as well.

[timmay143]

Alright, I'm sold and excited! They have the lanes in the middle, separate, dedicated to buses, at least down the majority of WE/B. They also show very slick looking "buses" which resemble LRT/streetcars. Everyone should take a look at the study presentation. Ron, (smeagolsfree), has it linked a few posts back.

Mods if this isn't kosher I understand. I am going to post some pics from the study. I think the MAX line in Las Vegas has the best streetcar looking buses (low-profile, larger and lower front window, and hidden wheels) while the others are too bus-like. I also like Portland's lanes with the grass in the middle of the tire tracks.

Edited December 29, 2011 by timmay143

[arkitekte]

Its growing on me. All of that looks very nice, Although rail would have been really sweet, if Metro does this right it can be very nice. I'll for sure use it when I have the chance.

[BnaBreaker]

Sorry to dredge up a conversation that has kind of lost it's steam, but I'm just getting back on the urbanplanet boat after a couple years. haha

I'm still a bit torn on this whole BRT thing.

On the one hand, it frustrates me because while I know that finances are a valid concern, I wish that for once, Nashville would fully committ to something and be the city that sets the standards rather than just half-assing things and do just enough to remain somewhat competitive and relevant with peer cities. For this reason, I would love to have a top-notch LRT system.

On the other hand, having a BRT system doesn't necessarily mean that an LRT system is out of the question in the future. And if BRT can be done sooner, for less money than LRT, and still be very attractive and efficient, perhaps a fully funded BRT system will be better in the long run because it will change the attitude Nashvillians have toward riding the bus. I suppose it's better to maximize what we already have and make it as good as it can be before we go and jump on the LRT bandwagon.

[smeagolsfree]

Sorry to dredge up a conversation that has kind of lost it's steam, but I'm just getting back on the urbanplanet boat after a couple years. haha

I'm still a bit torn on this whole BRT thing.

On the one hand, it frustrates me because while I know that finances are a valid concern, I wish that for once, Nashville would fully committ to something and be the city that sets the standards rather than just half-assing things and do just enough to remain somewhat competitive and relevant with peer cities. For this reason, I would love to have a top-notch LRT system.

On the other hand, having a BRT system doesn't necessarily mean that an LRT system is out of the question in the future. And if BRT can be done sooner, for less money than LRT, and still be very attractive and efficient, perhaps a fully funded BRT system will be better in the long run because it will change the attitude Nashvillians have toward riding the bus. I suppose it's better to maximize what we already have and make it as good as it can be before we go and jump on the LRT bandwagon.

I think I am with you on this. The BRT idea has grown on me some. The big problem now is how thye are going to pay for it.

BTW, Welcome back to the forum. Good to see you and a few of the other long time posters back. I think we will have several projects starting up in a matter of weeks that should be pretty significant.

[timmay143]

Sorry to dredge up a conversation that has kind of lost it's steam, but I'm just getting back on the urbanplanet boat after a couple years. haha

I'm still a bit torn on this whole BRT thing.

On the one hand, it frustrates me because while I know that finances are a valid concern, I wish that for once, Nashville would fully committ to something and be the city that sets the standards rather than just half-assing things and do just enough to remain somewhat competitive and relevant with peer cities. For this reason, I would love to have a top-notch LRT system.

On the other hand, having a BRT system doesn't necessarily mean that an LRT system is out of the question in the future. And if BRT can be done sooner, for less money than LRT, and still be very attractive and efficient, perhaps a fully funded BRT system will be better in the long run because it will change the attitude Nashvillians have toward riding the bus. I suppose it's better to maximize what we already have and make it as good as it can be before we go and jump on the LRT bandwagon.

I think you helped with your own conadrum, !! Anyways, I think you nailed it on the head with you're last statement. Doesn't mean we can't eventually have LRT and this will definitely help people see the benefit of transit. BRT will be started sooner while I think LRT would go through some fights and be a long drawn out process where money will be a huge issue. I think we will definitely need LRT at some point, just don't know where. Maybe have one to Cool Springs/Franklin or if the BRT is extended to GH change it to LRT. Or airport to Opryland and or DT. I think the BRT will do well and hopefully will provide funds or at least attitude towards transit expansion in Nashville and the region. Anyways, IMO that is why it is good to have MULTImodal transportation. Certain types fit better in situations.

[BnaBreaker]

BTW, Welcome back to the forum. Good to see you and a few of the other long time posters back. I think we will have several projects starting up in a matter of weeks that should be pretty significant.

Thanks brotha...glad to be back. I've lurked off and on for quite awhile, because I want to keep up with all that's going on back in Nashville, but I just couldn't hold off getting back in on the conversation and debate any longer! haha...so much going on in Nashville, it's extremely exciting. And thanks to you and others for keeping us all up to date with the latest...I can't wait to hear about the other projects coming down the pipeline that you mention!

[BnaBreaker]

I think you helped with your own conadrum, !! Anyways, I think you nailed it on the head with you're last statement. Doesn't mean we can't eventually have LRT and this will definitely help people see the benefit of transit. BRT will be started sooner while I think LRT would go through some fights and be a long drawn out process where money will be a huge issue. I think we will definitely need LRT at some point, just don't know where. Maybe have one to Cool Springs/Franklin or if the BRT is extended to GH change it to LRT. Or airport to Opryland and or DT. I think the BRT will do well and hopefully will provide funds or at least attitude towards transit expansion in Nashville and the region. Anyways, IMO that is why it is good to have MULTImodal transportation. Certain types fit better in situations.

Haha...talking to myself is my preferred method of problem solving!

Anyway, I agree with you. There are definitely a lot of long term possibilities, especially as Nashville begins to urbanize (or re-urbanize, I guess would be more accurate) and densify. I want to be idealistic and say let's shoot for the stars and build a large light rail system, but if I'm going to be realistic, I'd say a solid, well funded, well maintained BRT system is probably more appropriate for Nashville right now. I think we have the density to adequately support a light rail line down Broadway, through downtown and on to Five Points, but nothing more.

It's really a kind of 'chicken before the egg' debate for me when it comes to light rail in a city like Nashville. The city needs more density to support an extensive light rail system, but a rail line would likely foster higher density growth. I don't know.

Another possible advantage to building a proper BRT system is that if we build that, and it succeeds and is really a big hit for the city that benefits it in all kinds of ways, I think local lawmakers will be far more likely to provide transit funding in the future. I mean think about it, if Nashville spends hundreds of millions of dollars on an LRT system just to 'keep up appearances', if you will, and the system winds up being a big flop because there aren't enough people around to ride it and make it profitable, that would just give the transit naysayers something to point their fingers at and use as an example as to why transit shouldn't be funded.

In anycase, I guess I'm rambling now, but I too am starting to warm up to this BRT plan. My last real concern was that the city would really half ass it and that it would be merely BRT in name only kind of like that sad looking "BRT line" on Gallatin Road. But if the system actually comes together the way it looks in the plans and renderings that timmay posted, I think it could be huge for the city.

[smeagolsfree]

BRT moves ahead with the Metropolitan Transit Authority Board approval.

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20120128/NEWS01/301280027/Nashville-bus-rapid-transit-system-moves-ahead?odyssey=tab{sodEmoji.|}topnews{sodEmoji.|}text{sodEmoji.|}FRONTPAGE

I saw another snipit on TV and they were saying that this could mean the end of on street parking on West End. All I can say to that is that it would be about time. There is ample parking off of West End and folks will have to walk a block or so to get where they need to go. WIll do a body good too. Although I am not a fan of the BRT proposal, it is better than nothing. I did favor the LRT but I understand that cost is a factor and have to be a realist.

They have to find out how to pay for this now.

[MidTenn1]

I always thought they would have to eliminate the parking on West End/Broadway to put this in. The parking is restricted anyway during rush hour to allow inbound traffic in the morning and outbound traffic in the evening to have extra laneage and accordingly increased capacity.

Therefore, the net effect of choosing the BRT option is not just a loss of parking, but a loss of traffic lanes when it matters the most. That means the two exclusive BRT lanes will require a reduction in the directional traffic lanes from four to three during the peak hours. I doubt the ridership on the BRT will reduce the vehicular demand by 25% even though the capacity will be reduced by that much.

There will also be a significant losses in the efficiency of the roads and intersections due to:

1- moving left turning vehicles effectively due to the new cross section of the highway

2- the non-progressive traffic signal timing created when the BRT randomly controls signal operation

3- and accomodating significant pedestrian traffic to the stations.

This option could create some serious traffic problems creating significant road user costs; picture Green Hills Village. This may also hurt local business financially. These are real economic, negative costs that have to be weighed in the evaluation of which option is more affordable. I think an elevated train traveling parallel and one block off West End/Broadway would probably be the least costly and disruptive option in the long run.

Edited January 28, 2012 by PHofKS

[Nashvillain]

^Maybe, but that's only if you like the idea, or the current reality, of West End/Broadway as a vehicle choked entry/exit through-way of the city rather than as a more fully-functional urban boulevard that makes room for personal vehicles but also, and to a much greater extent, mass transit and pedestrians. If mass transit can spur greater density, there may be fewer people using the corridor to get in and out of the city and more people seeing the area as the ultimate destination. Businesses are often times wary of reduced vehicle traffic when the city comes in with plans to reduce vehicle lanes, but the resulting gain in foot traffic is most often a boon to local business as people on foot are much more apt to stop and shop than someone in a car driving by at 30mph. More people riding buses puts more feet on the street, increasing the need for pedestrian oriented, street-level space.

I think the trend in urban design is to get cars off the road, and where there are a lot of cars, to slow them down, especially in dense urban environments. This mass transit corridor, whether in the form of BRT or light rail or whatever, is wholly in line with that positive trend.

[timmay143]

^Maybe, but that's only if you like the idea, or the current reality, of West End/Broadway as a vehicle choked entry/exit through-way of the city rather than as a more fully-functional urban boulevard that makes room for personal vehicles but also, and to a much greater extent, mass transit and pedestrians. If mass transit can spur greater density, there may be fewer people using the corridor to get in and out of the city and more people seeing the area as the ultimate destination. Businesses are often times wary of reduced vehicle traffic when the city comes in with plans to reduce vehicle lanes, but the resulting gain in foot traffic is most often a boon to local business as people on foot are much more apt to stop and shop than someone in a car driving by at 30mph. More people riding buses puts more feet on the street, increasing the need for pedestrian oriented, street-level space.

I think the trend in urban design is to get cars off the road, and where there are a lot of cars, to slow them down, especially in dense urban environments. This mass transit corridor, whether in the form of BRT or light rail or whatever, is wholly in line with that positive trend.

Amen brotha!

I always thought they would have to eliminate the parking on West End/Broadway to put this in. The parking is restricted anyway during rush hour to allow inbound traffic in the morning and outbound traffic in the evening to have extra laneage and accordingly increased capacity.

Therefore, the net effect of choosing the BRT option is not just a loss of parking, but a loss of traffic lanes when it matters the most. That means the two exclusive BRT lanes will require a reduction in the directional traffic lanes from four to three during the peak hours. I doubt the ridership on the BRT will reduce the vehicular demand by 25% even though the capacity will be reduced by that much.

There will also be a significant losses in the efficiency of the roads and intersections due to:

1- moving left turning vehicles effectively due to the new cross section of the highway

2- the non-progressive traffic signal timing created when the BRT randomly controls signal operation

3- and accomodating significant pedestrian traffic to the stations.

This option could create some serious traffic problems creating significant road user costs; picture Green Hills Village. This may also hurt local business financially. These are real economic, negative costs that have to be weighed in the evaluation of which option is more affordable. I think an elevated train traveling parallel and one block off West End/Broadway would probably be the least costly and disruptive option in the long run.

PHofKS, you have some legitimate concerns and thoughts. I too have wondered, specifically, about the left turning for cars, but the overall point is to make it where people would want to avoid the route with their cars. Instead, they can drive to an BRT access point and park, then take the BRT or walk to other destinations along the corridor. I know it seems counter-intuitive, but that's because we've grown accustomed, especially in Nashville, that cars are the only way and widening the roads or that the road, at least in higher density areas in town, are strictly for cars and this makes the most sense. If you look at older pictures of Nashville, you'll see mostly pedestrians, a street car, a few carriages, and a few cars. Dang, I can't find it now, . Anyways, I can't wait to see this thing in action! However, I am curious how they would construct this baby. I am sure that would cause traffic nightmares at that moment!

[timmay143]

Anyone want to enlighten me on why a yearlong study on costs and ridership?? I thought this was covered in the last study? Or is this one more specific and in more detail?

[jice]

Charlotte Pike runs parallel to West End/Broadway.. and I expect vehicular traffic to realize this road tends to be less utilized than West End, and take advantage. If more lanes are needed, I would rather see Charlotte expanded.

Plus you have Church Street that also runs parallel until you get to 25th.

[jice]

Anyone want to enlighten me on why a yearlong study on costs and ridership?? I thought this was covered in the last study? Or is this one more specific and in more detail?

here's the press release:

http://www.nashvillemta.org/news/news549.pdf

also, apparently this is now called the 'East-West Connector'

[timmay143]

here's the press release:

http://www.nashville...ews/news549.pdf

also, apparently this is now called the 'East-West Connector'

Thanks. Ok, so this next study is to comply with getting federal funding and yes it is a more detailed study about ridership and costs including impacts, engineering, and other items such as optimal station placement, etc.

[Nathan_in_DC]

Interesting to see the numbers recently released by the RTA regarding the upswing in usage on the Music City Star. Hopefully people are actually starting to use the service enough to make it feasible and enough to have an impact on traffic on I-40. I noticed over the last couple of months someone was putting up unsourced information regarding a North-South Corridor line, and while I could find no mention of actual plans anywhere, it did get me to thinking that maybe something was in the works. Anyone seen any news on this?

Unfortunately, I'm afraid that unless they get more equipment and a dual-track system set up, this won't really take off. It's almost purely a commuter line right now, with the exception of special even trains and the 10:30 train on Saturday. Without regular later service, or at least past 10:30 service on Weekends, it's not going to do a lot to get people downtown. And with the limited population it serves right now, it won't do much. When they get a train to Murfreesboro, and hopefully in the future to Clarksville, Dickson and Franklin, I really do hope this will change, and it will become more useful to people who don't work downtown.

Anyway, first post, woo!

[smeagolsfree]

Great to have you on board Volanova. Philadelphia is a really cool place. Only been there once. I take it that you may have gone to school at UT from your name. Welcome to the site.